what white music influenced has black music?

banhammer -- 'please please please'

"what white music has influenced black music?"

SHOULD be the title, sorry. if a mod could sort that out, that would be nice...

;)

it's a serious question. obviously the main flow has been the other way, but what are the exceptions?

coldplay

yeah, timbaland likes coldplay...

for some reason. : /

country,Stockhausen, Beatles. Creole zydeco and White Cajun have influenced each other.

The influence of Stockhausen upon Creole zydeco had gone largely undocumented.

Miles Davis and I talked about it way back when :)

timbaland, and jay-z, like coldplay because they exist in the same damn pop music sphere and have a reasonable amount of fan overlap, not to mention mutual musical interest.

framing white people/black people music as some sort of dialog is increasingly bullshit because it assumes that a song/band/individual can exist in some sort of vacuum and that everyone has an amazingly narrow interest in music

? This thread

spockpuppet

ban nude spork

i was kidding about coldplay. white/black music... pfft what about bhangra or arabic music or gamelan or balkan music - there aren't just two musical legacies at work here jesus.

STOP

(banhammer time)

obviously there's kraftwerk influencing electro, techno, etc...

yep, but it goes way deeper than that. Detroit techno artists were also feeling new wave (Gary Numan, Human League, Telex etc.) and italo disco (Kano, Klein & MBO, Capricron etc.) and bunches of other stuff. Read "Techno Rebels" by Dan Sicko if you want to delve into that more.

There's also the whole "black rock" thing ... black artists being influenced by white artist who were in turn influenced by black artists.

But this whole black/white binary is straight retarted, btw, and really doesn't hold up if you explore music beyond the surface.

I could go on and on and on about how lame these kind of arguments are ... but I'll spare all of us the trouble.

But, I will say that I just found out that one of the greatest hip-hop producers, Paul C, was a white guy. Wha?!

Yeah,it's ricochet at least, like southern "songsters," black, white mixutures of both and other (genetically and musically, sinc they travelled and had to be versatile, esp. when competition extended to radio and jukeboxes). The Mississipi Sheiks went for crossover appeal to the emerging white country audience, and for black listners to country. Miles Davis cited not only Stockhausen, but also Hindemith and Katchaturian, from his studies at Julliard (and of course the white-composed/arranged music of Sketches of Spain and Porgy and Bess, speaking of richochet)(plus his use of rock elements, though not like he tried to isolate those from *their* sources, like with use of the equally blues- and rock-associated distorted grooves of Pete Cosey and Sonny Sharrock. Some historians say that Louis Armstrong's early friendship with a Lithuanian family in New Orleans brought him into contact with East European music; Anthony Braxton cited 20th Century modernist composers; Jimi Hendrix was fascinated by Dylan (and performed "Like A Rolling Stone" at Monterey Pop, way before covering "All All Along The Watchtower," and some of his own songs, like "The Wind Cries Mary," seem influenced by Dylan, plus his vocal approach); Prince is obviously into the Beatles whimsey times boom-boom times music factory approach; Greg Tate's guitar playing with Burnt Sugar seems influenced by his listening to Soundgarden's Super Unknown (cited as the one that spent the most time in his Discman in the 90s)

And too many more (re xpost)instances of rap to cite

http://a6.vox.com/6a00c2251d4790f21900d09e5846e6be2b-320pi

James Brown swiped licks from David Bowie

Basic Channel's influence over contemporary Detroit techno

70s funk took a lot of ideas from rock of the period - yeah, you can trace a line between blues guitarists and eddie hazel or ernie isley and co but that stuff wouldnt have happened without rock.

hip hop sampling various rock drums and riffs.

mid 80s boom box style hip hop production (thanks in no small part ro rick rubin) taking hard-rock drum sounds and riffs and even rhythms to a degree.

Don Sam, a DJ on Houston's excellent black oldies/blues/zydeco AM station KCOH does periodic shows called "Non-blacks who made a contribution."

Among the most popular acts are Hall and Oates, the Doobies / McDonald, Tom Jones, Bob Seger, and some real shockers I can't remember. A friend of mine wrote down a list...

In Texas, many black people, especially older people, listen to country. I've been in juke joints with as much Aaron Tippin on the box as Tyrone Davis.

Also, Bobby Bland has always credited Perry Como as one of his primary inspirations.

country is quite big in the caribbean too.

also, what about the importance of non-white or black music to black music - jazz artists taking from music from around the world, ditto timbaland, etc. im not sure where soul and funk would be in the 70s without latin music.

And Gentleman Jim Reeves, the epitome of early countrypolitan, was said to be a favorite in Africa--but as far as *influence*---?

Miles Davis cited not only Stockhausen, but also Hindemith and Katchaturian, from his studies at Julliard (and of course the white-composed/arranged music of Sketches of Spain and Porgy and Bess, speaking of richochet)(plus his use of rock elements, though not like he tried to isolate those from *their* sources, like with use of the equally blues- and rock-associated distorted grooves of Pete Cosey and Sonny Sharrock. Some historians say that Louis Armstrong's early friendship with a Lithuanian family in New Orleans brought him into contact with East European music; Anthony Braxton cited 20th Century modernist composers

Jazz as a whole owes a lot to classical and tin-pan alley music. Obviously there's the whole standards tradition, which probably shaped 50% of jazz's harmonic structure, at least until modal jazz. Then there's also just the fact that any jazz musician who had been lucky enough to do any kind of formal study (and some that weren't so lucky) would have studied some classical music.

Charlie Parker is known to have avidly studied Stravinsky scores. John Coltrane used to practice out of classical violin books. Art Tatum played Humoresque as one of his standards. Mingus studied composition, and a lot of his contemporaries made a conscious effort to write "third stream" jazz/classical hybrid music (whether they used the term or not)

I could go on and on. Musicians tend not to care as much about racial lines as the writers who define musical boundaries.

Giorgio Moroder obviously played an important part for black acts to discover electronics. I mean, surely I know Afrika Bambaataa was a huge Kraftwerk fan, but there were lots of electronics in "black" music styles before him, and not only using the electronics like Stevie Wonder or George Clinton would have done either.

Also: 60s Motown, 70s smooth soul, 80s acts such as Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson and Mariah Carey: All of them obviously influenced by Tin Pan Alley/Brill Building ideals, and possibly even a bit of McCartney.

Musicians tend not to care as much about racial lines as the writers marketers who define musical boundaries.

That's probably a more fair assessment.

Well, lots of ILM'ers care a lot about racial lines rather than musical genre differences.

I mean, putting skin colours on certain stylistic elements is just plain madness. This "rhythm=black", "melody/harmony=white" thing one should get away with. It's about time the boundaries between "black" and "white" music are being blurred again like they were in the 60s and 80s.

is that you Geir?

henry s you are so otm.

Among the most popular acts are ... the Doobies / McDonald, ...

this IS true -->

What's Happening! ~ Doobie Bros (2 of 2)

lol @ proto-RIAA propaganda

henry s. wins this thread.

is that you Geir?

Yes it is, and blurring the boundaries between "black" and "white" music today first and foremost means that "black" music has to become considerably more "white". Like it used to be in the golden days of Motown.

Ha ha. I'm lovin' it TM

Re: Stevie Wonder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonto's_Expanding_Head_Band#Those_influenced_by_TONTO_albums

Er umm.. are you talking contemporary pop music? postwar? US?

Virtually all contemporary pop music is performedon instruments designed and/or descended from instruments developed for the performance of "white music". Ethnomusicologists weigh-in here on the "blued note" as consequence of African sensibilities colliding with European tuning systems.

More immediately to your supposed point, influence of Nashville on reggae, heavy influence of new wave and Eurodance records on the development of house music.

"I remember Ron Hardy dropping Nitzer Ebb (hard industrial band) in between records by Marshall Jefferson and Adonis." says Scott K. (More club, Los Angeles "in URB magazine there's an article on Felix Da Housecat where he mentions Frankie Knuckles dropping cuts from bands like New Order. He then credits (rightfully so) Ron Hardy for starting that."

"Ron was more adventurous that Frankie Knuckles. Frankie would play straight disco but Ron would play all kinds of stuff. He'd play Eurythmics, he play Man Parrish, he'd play Shannon, right along with the disco. And man, he just stole all of Frankie Knuckle's crowd." - Marshall Jefferson

I'm back to hyping Ron Hardy this week...

Bad Brains cited the Ramones and the Dead Boys, for whatever that's worth.

cite Budgie too, for whatever that's worth.

Virtually all contemporary pop music is performedon instruments designed and/or descended from instruments developed for the performance of "white music".

I know the banjo is descended from an African instrument, and likely other stringed instruments may have as well.

Geir's suggestions that Motown took all their melodies from white people is suspect.

Geir's suggestions that Motown took all their melodies from white people is are suspect.

Musicians tend not to care as much about racial lines as the writers who define musical boundaries.-Hurting 2

Maybe, but Hurting 2, please do not forget that many of the jazz cats you mentioned suffered due to racism and segregation for years. They were very aware of racial lines, if in a different sense than what you mean.

Motown's melodies were very obviously written by black people.

And personally I put those marks on "black" and "white" because I dislike the idea about "black" and "white" music. There is good music and there is bad music. And people should stay with writing melody/harmony related music regardless of skin colour. Music made by black people, like music made by white people, is at its best when it concentrates on melody, harmony, complexity and head values, and tones down rhythm, performance, "groove", "soul" and exaggerated emotions and exstatic vocal styles.

The values that are often called "black" exist in Europe too, in traditional folk music. It is just that traditional musical values aren't as worthy as more artistic musical values. Music has to do with skills.

Awesome.

Depressing

Did Ghana beat Norway in a friendly last night or something? Geir seems to be a little more pepped up on this topic than normal.

It was the non-melodic chanting of the Ghanaian fans that got to him

This is not about Africa, and not about skin colour. It is about music and musical values.

Yes, you don't want to reiterate your views on "Africans" and "music" here

Geir basically what you're saying is that the traditional values in Western music should dominate over other values in traditional music in non-Western place. So it has much to do with Africa.

Just because you happen to think these Western values are universal, and have nothing to do with ethnicity or nationality or whatever doesn't mean it's really so.

I'm new here. is this a parody thread?

yes

Geir basically what you're saying is that the traditional values in Western music should dominate over other values in traditional music in non-Western place.

America is the West.

And Western traditional music is built on basically the same values as traditional music outside the West. Just that traditional music is something else, and has nothing to do with professional music. Popular music is professional music.

that's just typing now.

damn I was trying really hard to parse it. but yr right, nonsense.
geir plse define "traditional music"

Folk music. Music made by non-professional musicians. All things "ethnic".

Never liked that kind of music. In fact, our own Norwegian traditional music I hate more than most other countries' traditional music.

>>Folk music. Music made by non-professional musicians

for the moment lets ignore the "ethnic" thing - I don't think you mean what that implies! I'm stuck on the "professional" bit, especially as I know plenty of professional, and very popular, musicians who would happily label themselves "folk".

Folk music. Music made by non-professional musicians.

Ha ha. Ridiculous.

especially as I know plenty of professional, and very popular, musicians who would happily label themselves "folk".

Surely there's a lot of folk influenced popular music. But there should be considerably less of it.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, folk-influenced classical music? Rather a lot of that too, isn't there?

It has been stripped of the folk-thinking though.

Fake Geir

I mean, nothing wrong with folk influences the way they were used by Jethro Tull as part of their prog rock symphonies in the 70s, or the way latin elements are now being used by The Mars Volta.

Folk Geir

Geir Hongronny-Nonny.

Fake-Folk-Funk - aren't we close to the root here? Sounds like Geir's scared of anything which sounds like fuck & by pseudofreudianistic extension to sex itself?

Maybe, but Hurting 2, please do not forget that many of the jazz cats you mentioned suffered due to racism and segregation for years. They were very aware of racial lines, if in a different sense than what you mean.

-- curmudgeon, Thursday, 18 October 2007 04:19 (10 hours ago) Link

Of course. I more meant that they don't care as much about racial lines in music.

Even still, it occurred to me even as I typed that statement that there were very deliberate movements within jazz to bring in more African influences, get away from the harmonic structures of the white American Songbook, etc., and that these movements were partly political.

But I don't think most jazz musicians worth their salt would completely disavow any white influences.

I'm very afraid... I agree with Geir on something... on the "folk" thing.

"Real" folk music is music made by folks (sort of) ... Before Edison that would be what you and me and everybody here would have been listening to. Given, that we should recognize the two different definitions of "folk" being bandied around here. The folk movement of the 60s being and attempt to reach back to simpler times and recreate the sound and feel of such traditional leanings.

I think someone's attaching some imagined "racist" implication to the term "ethnic" in his post as well...

Of course, every other word out of his keyboard is complete and utter hokum.

I especially love the part about music having to be complex...

I'm still on my first cup, so maybe none of this is explained well.

herbie hancocks favourite composer/songwriter is gershwin.

stevie wonder also owes some debt to white tin pan alley/brill building etc-styled pop.

why play along with this shit?

but if you are, jewishness of TPA is worth looking into.

"Real" folk music is music made by folks (sort of)

louis armstrong to thread..

What a retarded question, again trying to force some stupid false dichotomy.

Meh.

white music

haha

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jdo0278l.jpg

The Pyramids

http://s7.directupload.net/images/110923/99o5tyfk.jpg