"Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness" by the Smashing Pumpkins

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Eleven years gone by, and Mellon Collie increasingly seems to stand as a truly unique piece of work for its genre and period. Along with Soundgarden (Down on the Upside) and Radiohead (OK Computer), the Pumpkins ended up being one of the only "alt-rock" bands to really chow down on the "long, ambitious, arty statement album" approach. And they went further than either of those others in terms of ambition and certainly length - though we can argue over how well it compares in quality! In any case, it's probably due for a re-evaluation, since it tends to get the same write-off as most such records: it's flabby, it's pretentious, it's stupid, there's filler... but as it happens, it's actually an incredibly robust collection of outsize rockers, curious metal excursions, sweeping ballads, and goofy one-offs. It's Siamese Dream but moreso - whether that works or not is up for grabs.

I think history will be kinder to it once kids like me who bought it by the millions and never turned their backs on it start being in charge at all your major music mags. Let's start the trend here! This can be C/D, S/D, etc. I intended to take it on as a White Album exercise and try and cram it onto a single disc, but I really can't see a way to do it without cheating somehow, since a couple of the album's key ingredients end up getting expressed as really long songs ("Porcelina" and "XYU", to be specific). Plus, you'd be hard-pressed to leave off any of the five singles. At best I can imagine it being only just slightly trimmed back and released as two separate single albums - both discs have a few things I would let go, but not half the material by any means.

Oh, hell, let's try it anyway.

SIDE A - From Starlight To Oblivion

Tonight, Tonight
Zero
1979
XYU
Lily (My One And Only)
Bullet With Butterfly Wings
Cupid De Locke

SIDE B - Porcelina and the Machines of God

Where Boys Fear To Tread
Bodies
Thru The Eyes of Ruby
Galapagos
Thirty-Three
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans
Muzzle

Loses so much of what I love about this album, but, so it goes. And I've spent far too long on this as it is, so, adieu; I leave it up to y'all.

― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 00:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Even when I was 15, "Zero," "1979" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" were the only three tracks I liked. Time has narrowed that down to the "1979" alone.

― milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 00:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

What was the fifth single? Those three, "Tonight, Tonight" (awful) and what?

― milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 00:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

SIDE A:
Here Is No Why

SIDE B:
Love

and maybe some other songs too

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

What was the fifth single? Those three, "Tonight, Tonight" (awful) and what?

Thirty-Three

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

what's the deal with this band Nirvana I keep hearing about?

― timmy tannin (pompous), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Some rock and roll thing.

My 1999 take. I don't feel like updating it.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyone else have the Zero cassette?

― Jimmy Mod is COMPLETELY MISERABLE SAN DIEGO (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Was there something specifically on that available nowhere else? I always loved "The Pistachio Medley" on the CD.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

say what you want, think what you want, complain all you want about corgan and his ego, but there's some great songs on this album.

― latebloomer: just raw dead fucking, babies! (latebloomer), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 01:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Never was a big Smashing Pumpkins fan, but I think this one is great and still enjoy listening to it. It is one of the few double CDs by a popular act that justifies its length.

I relate to a lot of what Ned says in his review. Having Alan Moulder involved on this probably helped big time!

― Matt Olken (Moodles), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 02:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

my 'fave' smashing pumpkins album if such a thing exists, i haven't heard it in probably eight and half years at least and i can't even imagine what kinda nostalgia flood i'd get if i did. if you'd told me at the time they had two albums left in them and that the second one would basically only be heard (or even known about damn near) by their fans, that by the end of the decade they'd be done and it wouldn't even be a big deal i'd never have believed you.

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 03:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

"tonight tonight" is my favorite pumpkins song, mostly because i like the ratatat drumming and the galumphing strings. the video was pretty cool too, i think. i wonder if it's on youtube.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 03:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

i always thought the video was kinda overrated (LOVED the '1979' vid though), but i was crazy about the song (close enough to the moody blues for me!). winter of 95!

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 03:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

i think i'm just a sucker for melies. (the video is on youtube, i just checked). listening to it just now it sounded like...the decemberists. but i still like it.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 03:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

As much as I've tried to distance myself from this album since middle school, this thread has made me really really want to listen to it again.

I think the exclusion of "Stumbleine" on the original list is a crime (as well as the two songs I mentioned upthread).

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 03:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Its overlong, its arty, its pretentious - some of the best qualities a rock album should have. At least "Mellon Collie" was a powerful antidote to the macrobiotic rock of too many 90's alternative bands.

― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 06:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lots of great songs. I like the stylistic variation, I love the cover, and I like the concept too.

But.... It would have worked better as a 70 minute plus single album rather than an overlong double CD.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 08:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

what's macrobiotic rock?

― richardk (Richard K), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 09:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

It was overrated crap when it came out, and so it remains.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

This is definitely the best thing they ever did. Gish was very good but didn't really stand out as a classic; Siamese Dream? Well a lot of people liked it but I found i a bit boring to be honest; Adore was very good but just not the Pumpkins any more; everythign else was, well I didn't bother with it.

It's a true stunner - just pure indulgence from start to finish and yes, at the time I would listen to it from start to finish. I tried listening again the other day - some bits stuck out and others faded into the background, but that's merely from having heard it so many times that it's been etched upon my eardrums like a hot pie or a pasty. No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete. I even like the jokey tracks at the end. "Beautiful" just sums up mid-teen crushes so well. "We Only Come Out At Night"; "Lily My One And Only" - these are awesome fun tunes like those on the White Album. Then you've got wicked rockers like "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" and "Love". It's too too good.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

As the original poster says, the reason it gets put down is because of Corgan's unwillingness to make an album for adults. If I had been 25 when this came out I'd probably have hated it - the bawling vocal, the post-grunge/proto-emo "you don't understand me OR MY MUSIC" white middle class ethic; the Queen/Prog-inspired pomp and circumstance. It's enough to make a man sick.

But to a 15 year old kid, this tastes like candy-apples. It is a decade old album, and in the same way that at the time we laughed at the Human League, the Smiths and Big Daddy Kane, so to do we about this in 2006. This is why it'll be critically re-evaluated in another ten years and top many a best-of list.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

If I had been 25 when this came out I'd probably have hated it

Hmm. I was 24. Maybe it's an American thing. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 11:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

i like it as a concept, and can still stomach most of the songs
some bloody awful vocals on it though

― Charlie Howard (the sphinx), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 11:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

i didn't like this much when it came out but came to like it a lot more a few years ago

― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 12:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

i like it as a concept, and can still stomach most of the songs
some bloody awful vocals on it though
-- Charlie Howard (charlieflie...), October 10th, 2006.

Cheers to Charlie.

― Andi Headphones (Andi Headphones), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 16:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

"But.... It would have worked better as a 70 minute plus single album rather than an overlong double CD."

entirely OTM.
i still go back to this one occasionally, but end up only listening to rough 1/2 of it. otherwise, it's a total nostalgia trip and not entirely a worthwhile one.

as far as the singles go- i can really only listen to 1979+33 (odd, both the number name ones!). zero's alright on a drunken night. BWBW's=blech. even as a fan.

Siamese Dream still destroys this album for me. Picese, too.
Adore= dreck of drecktown.
Machina 1= only slightly better.

― edde (edde), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 16:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ned Raggett approves of Smashing Pumpkins but not Jack Johnson (shoes that look like feet)? Bah.

― the Adversary (but, still, a friend of yours) (Uri Frendimein), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Plus, you'd be hard-pressed to leave off any of the five singles.

I don't have a particular CD80 version in mind (yet), but I know that I'd cut "Zero" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" in a heartbeat. I don't particularly care for either.

And I could take or leave "Tonight, Tonight," but "Thirty-Three" and "1979" would be essential.

― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

I have become increasingly tired of whiney bands, but I never did like this one. When the Siva video from Gish came out, I thought for a second, "hey, that's kind of like Sonic Youth," but that was the extent of my appreciation for this band, whom I can't stand, btw. So, it should go without saying that this particular album, the worst of their worst, drives me up the wall.

This gets my award for worst lyrics ever:

"Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanliness
And cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like me (dumb)
Intoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness (peeee-YUKE!)
Bullshit fakers (like Billy?), enchanted kingdoms
The fasion victims (Oh, like Billy?) chew their charcoal teeth" (dumb)

― the Adversary (but, still, a friend of yours) (Uri Frendimein), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

They were effectively done for me after Pisces Iscariot.

I'll never forget seeing the debut of the "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" video on Much Music. It would have been October 95.

The lyrics, the riffs, the imagery in the video - all of it made me nauseous. I was extremely disappointed with the album, and I didn't pay attention to them from that moment on.

I think Wogan made a good point. Probably would have sounded great had I been a teenager. I was 23 at the time.

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

@ concept of this thread

― benrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 19:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Here is my 13-track version of Mellon Collie that follows the blueprint of Siamese Dream track-for-track (as far as album structure, tone and mood, high and low points, etc.) that I would argue is as good as (or even better than) that album:

------

01 Where Boys Fear to Tread
02 Bodies
An excellent start to disc two of Mellon Collie; my version keeps both tracks intact, mirroring the one-two punch of "Cherub Rock" and "Quiet, rocking out at the start and avoiding the singles so far.

03 Muzzle
This should have been a single from Mellon Collie; it would be the lead single (and prominently placed third track, like "Today") on my version.

04 1979
05 Here Is No Why
A good spot for a couple strong songs (think "Hummer" and "Rocket") which deserve to come sooner than later in the album; "1979" would be the second or third single, along with...

06 Thirty-Three
07 We Only Come Out at Night
The last of the three singles from my version gets the spot of "Disarm" here, with an excellent low-key song (a la "Soma") to follow it and complement its mood perfectly.

08 Jellybelly
Lest the album go soft before its time, "Geek USA" is mirrored by this one.

09 Galapogos
The epic song, like "Mayonaise," that would rightfully be a fan favorite comes at this point; too far back in the track listing for fair-weather fans, just right for those who learn the album front-to-back.

10 Stumbleine
11 Thru the Eyes of Ruby
12 Lily (My One and Only)
Following the path of "Spaceboy"-"Silverfuck"-"Sweet Sweet" comes this trio of songs; the album's ambitious, lengthy, epic song bookended with a couple shorter, prettier ones.

13 Farewell and Goodnight
The closer on Mellon Collie stays where it should be, closing the album (like "Luna") with subtlety and beauty.

------

I don't really miss anything from the original Mellon Collie with my version, either.

> The ridiculous RAWK songs - "Zero," "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," "Fuck You," "Scorched Earth," and "XYU" - would be perfect for '90s alt-rock bands who actually deserve to suck, not the Pumpkins.

> The slower discarded songs - "To Forgive," "Cupid De Locke," "Take Me Down," "In the Arms of Sleep," "Beautiful," and "By Starlight" - are sappy and forgettable to my ears, especially compared to similar songs that made the cut.

> "Mellon Collie," the instrumental intro, was appropriate for an ambitious double album, not for my version.

> A couple songs in particular - "Tonight, Tonight" and "Love" - just didn't fit the overall mood of my version of the album.

> Two epics on my version would be excessive, so "Porcelina" was left behind in favor of "Ruby," which works better in context.

― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 19:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think your version is a very strong collection of songs - but somewhere along the way I think this kind of sequencing loses the kitchen-sink approach that gives Mellon Collie its particular flavor. Ned's review I think seems to be picking up on this point - it's not even what the songs are, it's the idea that alt-rockers could make a White Album, could do big, all-over-the-map albums. Granted, Siamese Dream is a great template for big, all-over-the-map-ness! So I dunno.

I've never had any use at all for "Stumbleine." You're probably right about opening with "Where Boys Fear To Tread" - I thought about doing it that way too, I mean that opening bass slide is such a fabulous stage-setter! Something appeals to me about cutting straight in on the out-front riffing trudge of "Zero" though - it sets up an idea of what the album is that will then be immediately blown to pieces by what follows.

Glad to see "Thru The Eyes of Ruby" and "Galapogos" getting their due in any case. And my local alt-rock station actually played "Muzzle" so much I thought it was the final single!

No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete.

This is interesting! I was satisfied thinking of these albums as unique for the period, but has mainstream rock really not produced anything in this vein since? I'm racking my brain and I'm sure we're missing something really obvious. Granted, there have been "ambitious" mainstream rock albums - I guess American Idiot is being viewed this way - but not with this much sonic variety and sheer quantity of different ideas and hooks in play. Who'll be the next to try? For some reason I think Modest Mouse could have it in them - they've certainly done huge widescreen albums before, and have shown at least some willingness to bend on the guitar-band format. Dunno, though.

― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think the best recent example is Nick Cave's Abattoir Blues/The Lyre of Orpheus, which works fantastically - only 17 songs and not quite mainstream, but a great double album nonetheless.

I don't really like the kitchen sink approach, though - Cave's album is more sonically cohesive than Mellon Collie could ever claim to be, and a lot stronger for it. I much prefer Mellon Collie in its truncated form; I would skip around anyway listening to the whole thing.

What would you suggest to take the place of "Stumbleine" as a slower transitional track to "Ruby" anyway?

― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Saw them on this tour. Awesome it was and the album still sounds great.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

i always liked "they only come out at night"

second the praise of abbatoir blues/lyre of orpheus.

― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interesting that you draw a comparison between "Soma" and "We Only Come Out at Night," b/c "Soma" = EPIC GUITAR FREAKOUT. "Porcelina" would seem like a more obvious choice, but I think I understand yr choice.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 21:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

YO BILLY COGAN... U KNO DAT SONG, IT GO "N SHE KNOW, SHE KNOW, SHE KNOW"... U GET DAT FROM MY BOI, KING STANS ALBUM "SLANGUAGE?"

HOLLA BACK STAN I GOT U COVERED!!!!!!!!

― pumkin (pumkin), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 02:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

huge, sprawling and thin.

They supposedly had 45 songs going into the studio.

Just a totally played out venture, Darcy and Johnny Aha were nowhere to be heard from.

― Brandon Welch (Brandon Welch), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 04:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think "We Only Come Out at Night" relates more to the first 3:00 and last :45 of "Soma" than to the guitar parts in the middle - I was really trying to capture the overall mood of the song, and I remember "Soma" as a come-down in the wake of the bombastic high of "Disarm" more so than a guitar song, believe it or not.

― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 13:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

They supposedly had 45 songs going into the studio.

No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 13:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

I guess it bears repeating that if Corgan ever put out a 5xCD set of extended versions of the songs on “Pistachio Medley,” I’d buy that sumbitch in a heartbeat

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 14:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

They supposedly had 45 songs going into the studio.

28 songs on Mellon Collie, plus 21 Corgan or Iha songs that ended up being b-sides . Damn, that's enough songs for four full length albums!

But yeah, they needed an editor for this album. I always thought the second disc was much stronger than the first. I would take...

Cupid de Locke, Galpagos, and Porcelina off the first disc.

Thirty-Three, In the Arms of Sleep, 1979, Stumbeline, X.Y.U. (maybe), We Only Come Out at Night, Lily, By Starlight off of the second.

That comes out to about 52 minutes, and a much less rocking album. But to my ears at least, the more rocking Pumpkins songs are the ones that have dated the worst. The guitar histrionics don't really blow me away like they used to, and that's when Corgan tends to bust out his most embarassing lyrics. My version would come out closer to the mood of Adore, which is fine with me because I always liked Adore better than Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie or Gish.

― Zachary Scott (Zach S), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 16:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

I have the CD-single box set w/ a bunch of those Corgan or Iha songs (Aeroplane Over the Sea or something like that), some of their best songs ("Pennies" in particular, one of the most beautiful of all their songs).

I haven't listened to either disc of this album in forever, however, I do often listen to a mix CD I made a few years back containing a short list of their longest, most overblown songs (which are invariably my favs) - "Porcelina..." and "Through The Eyes Of A Ruby" are included (as is my other favorite ginormous Punkins jam "Starla").

― got yourself a fish biscuit! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 17:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

In fact, this was the entire tracklist:

Thru The Eyes of a Ruby
Soma
Silverfuck
Starla
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans

― got yourself a fish biscuit! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 17:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

The high point of my high school band playing in years was unfortunately not related to any of the many songs we put our blood sweat tears etc into writing, but was actually covering "Muzzle" in the basement of our friend "punk rock Sandra"'s ginormous house on her birthday.

― got yourself a fish biscuit! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 17:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nothing endears me to a touring band faster than a cover of a song on Mellon Collie. I saw this band called A Roman Holiday one time a few years ago - nice guys, good little show, but ultimately what really stuck with me was their minute-and-a-half of playing "Bodies."

"(Aeroplane Over the Sea or something like that)"

Even better!

― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 23:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

"I always liked Adore better than Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie or Gish."

this is, obviously, crazy talk.

if you do not concede that Siamese Dream's roar+bluster demolishes Adores faux-goth leanings and electronic feel, you, sir, are missing out on the whole sheebang.

"No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em."
happily, after all these years, i think i've heard a good amount of em, and have em in high quality (thank you Gravity Demos!!!! that thing slays me in many ways, but none as better {or as telling as where MCIS would go} as the indominateable 'Jackboot') which, ya know,i got that goin for me...

― edde (edde), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 23:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Adore is awesome for the first 12 tracks. If there were ever an album that needed trimming more than those off Mellon Collie, it's fucking Adore for those four yawnfest songs at the end. I don't want to hear Billy going all Elton John about his dead mom and shit (heartless bastard, I know). (OK "17" can stay but that's only because it's not a real song.)

But Adore can never be the bad Smashing Pumpkins album because "Appels + Oranjes" PWNS PWNS PWNS

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 12 October 2006 00:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 149 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

yeah only 7 pistachio songs out of the 70-something pieces, none of my favorites either

― black redhead (spazzmatazz), Tuesday, 4 December 2012 06:30 (5 months ago) Permalink

And into the listen. Damn, it might just actually sound better, this remaster!

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:05 (5 months ago) Permalink

agreed, it cuts more and it's a little less muddy on the low end. all the heavy tracks sound glorious.

― black redhead (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 16:42 (5 months ago) Permalink

That box sort-of reminds me of the Andy Partridge "Fuzzy Warbles" total-box-set..

It has stamp-sheets, an envelope that says it contains 'hinges' but in fact it has another CD..

And 9 other CDs.

And a 'best-of' in a envelope..

And a book...

― Mark G, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 17:08 (5 months ago) Permalink

Listened to the first bonus disc yesterday, on the rest today. Loving all this. It'll never fully replace all the bootlegs because it's more like a wide sampling of so many different tracks as opposed to an every-last-track thing but it's just great hearing so many of these songs all the more cleanly now.

Also "Set the Ray to Jerry" remains one of the best things they ever, ever did.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 17:40 (5 months ago) Permalink

Okay this 'barbershop' version of "Jupiter's Lament" is lovely.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 18:18 (5 months ago) Permalink

favorites so far - Dizzle (didn't stand out to me on the gravity demos, but this home demo is just gorgeous), the 1979 demo (the one that billy made the afternoon after flood told him the song wasn't ready for the album and got to change his mind), Phang, Knuckles, Ruby take 7, Jellybelly pit mix, Bagpipes drone, Cherry remix, Wishing You Were Real, My Blue Heaven remix, Isolation cover, Autumn Nocturne.....so many great nuggets on here!

― black redhead (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 19:27 (5 months ago) Permalink

The first line of "Stumbleine" sounds like "Subterranean Homesick Blues." Ha!

― Poliopolice, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 19:48 (5 months ago) Permalink

ha! Johnny's in the basement, mixin' up the loose teeth....

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 21:05 (5 months ago) Permalink

could actually be a cool Dylanesque way of expressing that the guy was shooting dice down there actually

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 21:06 (5 months ago) Permalink

Ordered this last night, can't wait to get it.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 6 December 2012 15:20 (5 months ago) Permalink

Spazz can you make me a copy

― Raymond Cummings, Thursday, 6 December 2012 15:48 (5 months ago) Permalink

I'm hoping Santa Claus drops the vinyl set in my stocking this christmas

― Moodles, Thursday, 6 December 2012 16:00 (5 months ago) Permalink

i dug out mellon collie last night. it's a rare example of a double album with very very few bad moments on it.

― besides Sunny Real Estate (dog latin), Thursday, 6 December 2012 16:20 (5 months ago) Permalink

yup, the only replacements i would make are "The Boy" instead of "Love," and "Meladori Magpie," "Jupiter's Lament," or "My Blue Heaven" instead of "Take Me Down."

― you are my capitalism (spazzmatazz), Thursday, 6 December 2012 16:26 (5 months ago) Permalink

i like both those songs. i always loved the guitar sound on Love especially. And Take Me Down is slight, but nice and it has Iha singing on it.

― besides Sunny Real Estate (dog latin), Thursday, 6 December 2012 16:27 (5 months ago) Permalink

billy could've kept the band together by promising iha 2 songs no questions asked on all future albums. then he'd be able to say he gave him a shot, and that iha wasn't really a "repressed talent" like he thought and people would stop jumping to the conclusion that billy was an asshole for not putting any shite songs on his records.

― you are my capitalism (spazzmatazz), Thursday, 6 December 2012 19:36 (5 months ago) Permalink

xp Is it confirmed that all the Pistachio Medley bits were pulled from full-length songs?

― billstevejim, Thursday, 6 December 2012 20:11 (5 months ago) Permalink

i don't think the seeds of resentment against Billy from fans or bandmates really has much at all to do w/ whether he let other people write SP songs (xp)

― some dude, Thursday, 6 December 2012 20:12 (5 months ago) Permalink

-not all the pastichio medley bits are full songs, many are likely culled from longer jams
-most of james' resentment was a result of being put down by billy continually

― you are my capitalism (spazzmatazz), Thursday, 6 December 2012 20:45 (5 months ago) Permalink

if he was trying to get his songs on the albums all the time maybe he deserved to be put down?

― some dude, Thursday, 6 December 2012 20:47 (5 months ago) Permalink

xxp But it is interesting how much of the popular disdain for Smashing Pumpkins has to with Billy Corgan as a person, and the dysfunctionality inherent in the Smashing Pumpkins narrative. There's really nothing sexy about their story at all. We have a fairly unattractive egomaniac with a penchant for publicly berating his enemies, two people who supposedly couldn't play their instruments very well, a junkie drummer. There's really not a good story in there, and there are certainly no heroes-- unsung or otherwise; it's all ugly.

― Poliopolice, Thursday, 6 December 2012 20:49 (5 months ago) Permalink

poliopolice...otm?

― some dude, Thursday, 6 December 2012 20:52 (5 months ago) Permalink

oh come on, i can be right some of the time

― Poliopolice, Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:00 (5 months ago) Permalink

apparently!

― some dude, Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:02 (5 months ago) Permalink

Obviously, it's hard to have the right opinions on subjective things 100% of the time.

― Poliopolice, Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:09 (5 months ago) Permalink

I can't understand how the dysfunctional relationships between band members, or really any of what you cite beyond "Billy Corgan as a person," could breed popular disdain. "Man, Billy had to play D'Arcy's bass lines? She's just like Craig at the office. I hate Craig. I hate this band now."

― We Got Hasheem (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:32 (5 months ago) Permalink

xp I don't agree, I find their story to be very romantic and almost regal. abused, misunderstood boy escapes the suburbs to make transcendent, spiritual, and extraordinarily evocative rock music thru unwavering dedication, gumption, force of will, and ballsiness. he finds three bandmates who's sensibilities add up to something greater than billy alone could ever be, the friction and edginess of those personalities together made the band what it was. chamberlin was a hard partier but he was and still is one of the best rock drummers in the world. watch any live show from 92-96 and tell me james and d'arcy don't hold their own even against billy's guitar histrionics. so they come close to breaking up after SD - they keep it together long enough to make what amounts to a final statement and epitaph, Mellon Collie. it's their biggest hit yet, and eight months into a huge worldwide arena tour, they implode, jimmy's fired, touring keyboardist dies, they keep on but the last four years of the band, 96-2000, are a sustained death march into oblivion as billy becomes totally disenchanted by being in a fractured, non-existent band. they went from being a dysfunctional family to not communicating as anything but business partners. Adore and Machina are funereal, elegies to billy's mom, the band, and the sadness of hope lost and what almost was. it's a beautiful story to me from beginning to end.

xxp and i'm not saying i agree that billy was wrong to leave james' songs off the records, but it was certainly a cause of resentment from james

― you are my capitalism (spazzmatazz), Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:41 (5 months ago) Permalink

maybe it's his voice then

― Poliopolice, Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:51 (5 months ago) Permalink

People hates Corgan because he was pretty arrogant and outspoken about shit. After the band's popularity started to wane, he seemed to become ... Even more curmudeonly.

― Raymond Cummings, Thursday, 6 December 2012 21:56 (5 months ago) Permalink

That interview he did with Q Magazine circa MACHINA/The Machines Of God which resulted in Sharon Osbourne calling Billy "a baldy twat in a dress" springs to mind.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Thursday, 6 December 2012 23:25 (5 months ago) Permalink

Typed up here:

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=6225

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Thursday, 6 December 2012 23:26 (5 months ago) Permalink

interviewer also sounds a bit dickish - "nice skirt" is not a very warm introduction

― We Got Hasheem (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 6 December 2012 23:43 (5 months ago) Permalink

interviewer just asked a bunch of celebrity culture bullshit, when clearly Billy wanted to talk about the music. Interviewer didn't get the hint.

― Poliopolice, Friday, 7 December 2012 00:48 (5 months ago) Permalink

agreed. you gotta talk some astrology with billy before you sprinkle in the celebrity stuff.

― We Got Hasheem (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 7 December 2012 01:44 (5 months ago) Permalink

My MCIS box showed up in today's mail, this thing is gorgeous.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 11 December 2012 03:44 (5 months ago) Permalink

apparently the mastering job on the vinyl reissue is shoddy, particularly on 'zero.' I do not know this from my own experience, however.

― toy_sleigher (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 11 December 2012 18:41 (5 months ago) Permalink

i have it, zero is a tad overcooked but otherwise the set sounds phenomenal

― you are my capitalism (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 12 December 2012 06:34 (5 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Brutal experience that really tainted my opinion on the band. The gig itself is the stuff of legend on account of how bad it was. Throughout the years I’ve met several others who were there that night and they’ve all felt the same.

Had forgotten the awfulness of this gig. The encore was a a noise-fest painful in its total shiteness.

― stet, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:47 (4 months ago) Permalink

this is where someone says we're now as far from "1979" as "1979" was from 1979.

― slugbuggy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 17:55 (4 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Who is the “BT” credited on a few of the outtakes and rarities, e.g. Cherry (BT 2012 mix)? Google hasn’t been helpful.

― Allen (etaeoe), Saturday, 2 February 2013 00:20 (3 months ago) Permalink

Billy Torgan. No, it's Bjorn Thorsrud, who was an engineer they worked with a bunch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjorn_Thorsrud

I wish I could afford this reissue.

― Walter Galt, Saturday, 2 February 2013 01:55 (3 months ago) Permalink

Bjorn Thorsgud?

― Raymond Cummings, Saturday, 2 February 2013 01:57 (3 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

fuiud

― Doctor Casino, Monday, 18 March 2013 18:45 (2 months ago) Permalink

question: is this album Billy C's interpretation of the "the heart music, Echo and the Bunnymen," or is it a two-disc concept album composed in furious response to Kim Thayil? Or should we assume the latter is the "Iscariot" in Pisces Iscariot?

― Doctor Casino, Monday, 18 March 2013 18:50 (2 months ago) Permalink

Adore is the Echo & the Bunnymen album obv.

― Heyman (crüt), Monday, 18 March 2013 18:51 (2 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, that's what's funny - that so clearly lives up to that mission, but it's delayed by one album, as if Billy suddenly had 40+ tracks of non-heart-music that he had to get off his chest.

― Doctor Casino, Monday, 18 March 2013 18:54 (2 months ago) Permalink

Mellon Collie is a good album and some of the band's finest moments are on there, but like with every long album there can be some filler in places.

I much prefer Siamese Dream, which is one of my favourite albums of all time. Hell, I think I prefer Gish to Mellon Collie.

Still, Bullet With Butterfly Wings, Tonight Tonight, 1979, Jellybelly, Zero, XYU, Here Is No Why, Thru The Eyes Of Ruby, Where Boys Fear To Tread, Cupid De Locke and Love are wonderful.

― Slash N Burn, Monday, 18 March 2013 19:12 (2 months ago) Permalink

Oh, and We Only Come Out At Night.

― Slash N Burn, Monday, 18 March 2013 19:12 (2 months ago) Permalink

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