Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

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Inspired, of course, by Sundar's post about them on NYLPM.

So, answer the bloody question already: is Ian Curtis an overbearing tuneless twat head that needed to be drowned out by higher guitars, or are Joy Division perfection incarnate?

Myself, I can't help but agree with the NYLPM post's assesment that if you believe anything other than Joy Division are classic as is, then you are just plain Wrong.

― Ally, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Hm, let's see, I have this _Heart and Soul_ box set for a *reason,* I think. I distinctly remember forcing a friend to drive me to my fave record store to pick up the one remaining copy, at that.

Gods. As most everyone else did, I'd bet, I came to them through New Order, but thankfully my timing was such that 1) _Substance_ (the JD one) had just come out around the time I got my first CD player and 2) I had learned about the JD/NO connection around that time as well through a quite good article on both of them in _Musician_ in 1988, of all places. So while Ian's voice and the early sound threw me a bit (I mean, you listen to _Brotherhood_ or the NO _Substance_ and then you hear "Warsaw" and it's like, "Huh?"), it didn't take long for me to be quietly enthralled. The rest followed naturally. I still am really * really* jealous of a friend who got to see them in the UK in 1979 on a visit. Lucky bastard.

"Transmission" in particular -- man. That song is a cold blue laser light of power, and I can't put it any other way, really.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Classic, silly.

― , Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Until recently, I would have called them classis solely on the strength of the cassette version of their _Substance_ tape. Having heard the _Heart And Soul_ box set, I'm glad I guessed correctly.

CLASSIC CLASSIC CLASSIC. In every imaginable sense of the word. (Although, I will argue that many of the songs are so brilliant in and of themselves that they can be interpreted in alomst any manner imaginable and still be fantastic.)

― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I think we should change the question to "Joy Division: Is There Anyone Here Who Doesn't Like Them?". That should get things over and done with a bit quicker.

― DG, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

GODDAMNIT, isn't there anyone here who hates Joy Division? I'm really irritated now. I wanted to see someone who hated them.

Wait, I think Tom thinks Joy Division are crap but for a handful of songs. Or maybe that's Fred. Or maybe I made this person up.

― Ally, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Didn't Kris say he could never get into JD because of Ian Curtis' voice? He doesn't have a rock voice. But Joy Division were hardly rock, they were disco-rock, post-disco, post-rock, what have you. I have trouble understanding why anyone wouldn't wanna rock, but Joy Division help me to. I've never completely gotten into JD either, but in this case all that means is I haven't exhausted the music's worth yet.

― Otis Wheeler, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Classic! "Unknown pleasures" is, along with Cure's "Pornography", my favourite "dark" album... They started morphing into something different after (they became more like New Order which were their next incarnation)

― Simone, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Joy Division with Ian Curtis -- Tuneless crap. For "minimalist" tunes, there was maximal hand-wringing "kill me now" wanking. Since nobody took Curtis seriously, he just went ahead and killed himself. Joy Division without Ian Curtis -- New Order. Back when they had no vocals in their songs at least they couldn't be tuneless. Then they decided that people should "dance", this from the folks who thought Curtis' onstage seizures constituted good dance form. From DUD to DIE FUCKING DIE YOU FUCKING FUCKING DUD.

― Tanya, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I disliked and/or ignored them at the time - probably because they sounded too dull and English but I've come to like them a little more these days. As per the many other posts above - Transmission is amazingly good.

― philT, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Used to hate them. Too gloomy, the cult of Ian, etc. Recently I've become more forgiving, tried to view them in a other way than that 78- 80 depression, we wear black worldview (what a shame Michael Mann didn't use the orginals in 'Heat' instead of letting that arse Moby cover 'New Day Fades'.) And so I finally got 'Closer' and it is very good. I will never really love them, like so many of you do, but there's something in the music. And Transmission is indeed brilliant.

― Omar, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Sure they were rock and so was Curtis' voice. I used to hate them 'cause of this obnoxious fan I knew who used to boast of how many times he had attempted suicide. But I was wrong. Classic.

― Patrick, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah, i hate them except for "atmosphere" which gets by largely on that. actually it's the combination of the lyrics and voice smacked against that serene, warm track, best part: "people like you think it's easy..."

but that's the only joy division track i need and i've listened to a lot. they mostly strike me as plodding and entirely uninteresting, largely due to curtis's monotone. i've never "connected" with them, so here's the question: is there anyone here who rates them classic and doesn't relate to the lyrics? or who gets by on them for purely musical reason, i.e. melody and backing music?

― fred solinger, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Fred, me ;)

I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But lyrically, generally, dud.

But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor - "Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the music, classic.

― Tom, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Fred. Me. I think Joy Division's lyrics are, by and large, awful. In fact, reading the lyrics years ago, I thought they were, by- and-large, just so average moaning that I never bothered to actually figure out when Ian Curtis was saying any of it. Their lyrics are what I'd describe NOW in my old age as "Radioheadesque", which, if you know me, is not a compliment. I cannot sing along with any Joy Division song besides New Dawn Fades and Love Will Tear Us Apart. ANY of them.

I love the sound. I love the feel. I love the way Ian Curtis sings. Simple as that. I don't understand how you can love Atmosphere for its atmosphere but dislike the rest of their songs, which have similar-if-not-better atmosphere.

― Ally, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Damnit, Tom. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!

― Ally, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I'll second that Martin Hannett thought. Joy Division had a sound like no other due in no small part to MH. And those 'lectronic drums were sweet.

― Steven James, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

"atmosphere," i find, is different from most of their other songs in that the arrangement is spacious and not constricting. and it's one of the few tunes of theirs that i'd call "beautiful" and the juxtaposition of the track and curtis, who adds a somber touch if you're paying attention to the lyrics or not, is striking. "the eternal" would be good if it weren't so long.

actually, it seems the qualities i admire in "atmosphere" share similarities with the qualities of the earlier cure tracks that i like, e.g. "all cats are grey," "faith," and "the same deep water as you." all have warm, heavy basslines and occasional shimmering keyboards and thudding drums, beautiful instrumentation clashing with the morosity of the lyrics and singer. make of that what you will!

― fred solinger, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Ally & Tom...separated at birth?

Perhaps they were conjoined twins, and after the operation everyone involved decided it would be best if one of the little tots were shipped across the ocean, so everyone could get on with their lives and forget about the trauma of the birth. ;-)

Oh, and Joy Division? Classic. But Tanya has had the audacity to steal my Ian Curtis joke from Duel, so she had better watch her step in the future. If I see her, I will be forced to kick her ass and steal her boyfriend.

― Nicole, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Count me in among those who prefer Joy Division's music to their words. Not the melodies, 'cause there aren't many, but the sound, feel and atmosphere. Though the words do match the lyrics pretty well - the way the obsessively repeated line "I put my trust in you" in "A Means To An End" matches the inexorability of the beat is a good example.

― Patrick, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I've actually heard maybe three or four Joy Division songs in my entire life. Classic: the basslines. Dead: Ian Curtis.

― E. B. Krayzay, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

i made no mention of lyrics in my review for a reason, mainly that i still don't know most of the words to "glass" or "digital" aside from the obvious repeated phrases. (i'm actually not sure that there is more to those lyrics than a few repeated phrases.) if i made a personal cult around much of curtis's 'poetry' in my late teens, the most that can be said for that now, literary-wise, is that it led me onto gogol, dostoevsky, and the romantics. _closer_ is my least favourite of their releases now, in large part because the overblown cliche-ridden lyrics dominate the music (not even so much because the voice is prominent but also because of the lyrical style) more than on the others. i still have time for the lyrics to "isolation" and "colony" and most of their other lyrics, especially on _unknown pleasures_ and the other records as well as the one patrick mentioned, sound all right with the music. ian curtis could throw off a great line here and there and he had the voice to justify some of his apocalyptic pronouncements. i still don't know what "31G" is a reference to. all this to say, me too, now anyway.

kris: you might prefer the earlier joy division where curtis used a more expressive vocal style.

― sundar subramanian, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

haven't listened to it properly for some time - but is the MUSIC on closer gloomy: gentle and silky and whatever, but gloomy?

IC is gloomy: the band (by then) are anything but gloomy

this only applies to closer and maybe (from memory) "atmosphere" — and of course the jangly OMD-tribute "love will tear us apart", a hugely overrated release that would have been immeasurably improved if Dan Perry had supplied lyrics (cf sexual healing classic or dud)

to me, curtis and the others were growing apart anyway (they were outgrowing HIM — this being an unspoken element in the whatever surrounding his death)

when it first came out, Kumar, percussionist in the band I then played guitar in, who was JD-besotted, explained that it was a great title because it meant two things, depending on how you pronounced it:

closer soft s: i.e. the last LP they would make now Curtis was gone

closer hard s: i.e. closer to what the record they meant to make all along

― mark s, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I gotta say I love the words to "Novelty", especially if they're directed at Ian himself : "can't stand on your own in these times against all the odds/you'll just fall behind like all the other sods"

I saw this new vinyl record yesterday called Warsaw, which would seem to be all early JD recordings. Has anyone heard this ? Is it a for- fanatics-only kind of deal ? I like the early songs on Substance a lot.

― Patrick, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

The 'Warsaw' recordings are an endlessly bootlegged series of early demos for RCA records. Some of them showed up on the box set. Nice but not essential -- if it's a cheap boot, go for it.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I bought a vinyl copy of Warsaw yesterday, actually. The sound quality is kinda lacking at times (some skips and pops from other vinyl versions they mastered this one from). It's different takes, anyway, than the Substance versions, so it's worth getting if you're worried about a repeat factor. It's also more electronic than I thought it would be, which has me wondering about how much is over- credited to Hannett with regards to their sound. Although, two separate versions of "Transmission" is a little excessive...

― Vic Funk, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

tom: hannett was an innovator who shaped the sound of jd records. but listening to the _preston 1980_ live album and to tapes of the 1980 eindhoven and amsterdam gigs one hears an intense powerful band. one different from the recorded sound in some ways but great all the same. more forceful and violent in some ways.

ned: i actually got into no via jd. as a rocker, i hated no growing up. i was introduced to jd by a fan of emo and post-rock. i'd been curious for a while because of all the awestruck rock criticism, which often made strange comparisons to the velvet underground, whom i liked. once i heard _closer_ i listened to nothing else for a week. after i got all the jd records i bought the first few no records.

― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Found JD from NIN's cover of Dead Souls off The Crow sndtrk. Back-asswards, non?

Heard the live version of Transmission off Still where the instrumentation starts to fall off and all you hear is Curtis SCREAMING...

DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO.

Damn near gave me nightmares. Classic.

― JM, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Joining this one late, I haven't much to add, except of course - CLASSIC! I have lived with JD's music for 20 years and it's still special. Side 2 of "Closer" still takes me to places no other music can. Hannett's genius was a major part of the story too.

I saw them live 4 times in 1979/80, and the Preston gig album kinda sums it up - you never knew if they were going to be either awful and beset with equipment problems or overwhelmingly great. Frequently they would veer from one extreme to the other, and it was always touch and go whether Ian would make it through the set. I still think this is how live music should be though - LIVE!

There will be more live album releases, but I hope not too many. I've heard rumours of cleaned-up radio broadcasts of the Paris and Amsterdam shows, which have been available as bootlegs for ages. I hope one or both is released, and then let's leave it at that.

― Dr. C, Monday, 9 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

I've been playing Les Bains Douches on and off for a week now, and it's BRUTAL. The Unknown Pleasures material is incredible - Barney's guitar on "Shadowplay" and "Day of the Lords" sounds like an industrial chainsaw slicing a car in half. They're obviously still trying to feel their way through a couple of the Closer tracks so they don't pack the same punch, except for "Atrocity Exhibition". I've never thought much of AE in its album form, but this version really works, with Steve Morris's Jaki-L groove really pushing hard.

If anyone was wondering how good JD could be live, then get this and don't bother with the live half of 'Still'/'Preston'/disc 4 of 'Heart and Soul'.

― Dr. C, Thursday, 24 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Just bought said live LP on your recommendation Dr.C, and it is indeed fucking brilliant !

― Alasdair, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I see in some countries, Canada being one, they're printing pictures of lung tumours and rotting tongues on cigarette packets along with the usual warnings. Why don't they include a mini-CD with Ian Curtis' voice on it as well?

― tarden, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I wish I could say I didn't like them , but I can't . Infact I just covered the enitre Closer album two week s ago and recorded it.

― Mike Hanley, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

A few observations about Joy Division:

1)The mawkish, morbid 'Cult of Ian' that emerged following his suicide ('he died for you') was more than a Cobain-like outburst of fan mourning. It was openly encouraged by Factory eg the cover of 'Closer', the Anton Corbijn video for 'Atmosphere' (which even Rob Gretton found dubious), and 'Anthony' Wilson's attempts to position Curits alongside the likes of Hendrix and Jones in the pantheon of dead rock geniuses. All highly questionable ("the flogging of a corpse" Paul Morley).

2) The band flirted with neo-fascism, in style if not substance; 'you all forget Rudolf Hess', the choice of name (and then New Order). Curtis, a complex figure, was very right-wing and, according to his widow, possibly racist. In that light the despair of his lyrics, and longing for 'purity' can emerge in a very different, and sometimes sinister light.

3)They were sonic visionaries however. Sumner listened to Chic, Curtis Kraftwerk and Krautrock. Hooks low-bass rumblings allied to Morris's astonishing drumming created a sound that will endure. They shone like diamonds. As a 16 year old I heard 'Love will tear us apart' on the radio and within weeks had left for Manchester by train with my savings to buy as many Joy Division records I could find/afford. They were a life-changing force and I will always revere them.

― Stevo, Sunday, 27 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

They sell Joy Division outside of Manchester, you know.

― Ally, Tuesday, 29 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

LOL. I lived near Manchester, and there were little or no Joy Division records in my home town.

― Stevo, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Thats bullshit, Joy Division aren't fascist. You jump to conclusions.

― Mike Hanley, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

It's true that Factory's distribution was terrible - it's well known that Joy Div and possibly others would have got higher chart placings if only Factory could have got records in the shops.

Mike - sadly, Stevo is correct - it's not possible to ignore the fact that JD used fascist imagery. Look at the cover of the Ideal for Living EP, the content of No Love Lost, Leaders of Men, They Walked in Line...

Maybe you can USE fascist imagery without BEING a fascist. I'd say they were pretty thoughtless, young and stupid, that's all.

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I agree that they used fascist IMAGERY. But for years they have been dealing with this PR nightmare; they are anti-fascism! They used the imagery to set the mood, not to promote opression. THe Rudolph Hess comment was explained by barney as being not a cry for Hess' freedom, but rather asking poeple to think about him, alon e in a cell for years. I meanm to call them fascist is to say black people are racist for callin g each other "nigga".

― Mike Hanley, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

For a more detailed explanation ...

This thread pop up on Usenet every now and then, and to give you the answer first: NO!!! This thread, however, did not start on Usenet or Internet. It started in the british music press more than 15 years ago, and since Joy Division gave very few interviews the rumours were allowed to grow in the press. Here's a few points to clear up things: > The version of "At a later date" that appear on the "Short Circuit" compilation opens with Bernard shouting "You all forgot Rudolf Hess!". At that time Rudolf Hess, 83 years old, had been imprisoned at the Spandau prison in East Berlin for more than 30 years. You don't have to be a nazi to feel sympathy for a sick old man that was heavily guarded by some 100 KGB soldiers. > According to Fernando Lopez-de-Victoria: Bernard (and perhaps Ian in some obscure interview) has noted that they like the regalia and art (?) of the Nazi's, but in no way liked their philosophy. This can be seen in some of their artwork, for example: > Bernard made the design for "An Ideal For Living", it included a drawing of a Hitler-jugend-look-alike drummer boy. But on the same fold-out sleeve there's a famous picture from the Warsaw ghetto during 2WW: A young Jewish boy standing with his hands up in the air being guarded by a nazi storm-trooper. Now, is that good nazi propaganda ? > The name Joy Division was associated with nazism, journalists didn't like it (the same thing happened with New Order). As you can read somewhere else in this FAQ "Joy Division" really has a connection to nazism: It was chosen from a book that describes the horrors in a nazi camp during 2WW, not the prosperous future... "Through the wire-screen the eyes, of those standing outside, looked in at her, as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo. In the hand of one of the assistants she saw the same instrument which they had, that morning, inserted deep into her body. She shuddered instinctively. No life at all in the House of Dolls. No love lost."

This verse from Cetinsky's "The House Of Dolls" was included on the version of "No love lost" from recording session (2).

The weird thing is that many other punk-bands used much more direct nazi symbolism in their relation with the press, and still got away with it!! Though the press never got to interview Joy Division about this topic they could have checked Joy Division's lyrics. If they had they wouldn't have found a shred of nazi propaganda, on the contrary! Take for example "They walked in line": "All dressed in uniforms so fine, they drank and killed to pass the time. Wearing the shame of all their crimes, with measured steps, they walked in line

They carried pictures of their wives and number tags to prove their lives, and made it through the whole machine with dirty hearts and hands washed clean."

And, to really tear down the nazi rumour: Joy Division have participated in a Rock Against Racism benefit concert (at Kelly's in Manchester 12 October 1978) and an Amnesty International benefit concert (at Eric's in Liverpool 3 May 1979). To summarize: I can't find any evidence that JD has shown any sympathy with fascism/nazism, only the contrary. ++++++

― Mike Hanley, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

BTW that is from an wepage here http://www.fys.uio.no/~bor/diskog/ascii/joy.division

so as not to plagarise.

― Mike Hanley, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Dr. C -- "Maybe you can USE fascist imagery without BEING a fascist."

Sure you can.

― JM, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I wonder how this debate compares with reactions to Laibach's use of militaristic/authoritarian imagery and sounds? Was it just a giant piss-take on Yugoslavia's relationship to its WW2 past and related taboos, or was there something else going on?

― Stevo, Friday, 1 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

"The version of "At a later date" that appear on the "Short Circuit" compilation opens with Bernard shouting "You all forgot Rudolf Hess!". At that time Rudolf Hess, 83 years old, had been imprisoned at the Spandau prison in East Berlin for more than 30 years. You don't have to be a nazi to feel sympathy for a sick old man that was heavily guarded by some 100 KGB soldiers."

i always found this argument dubious. given the number of oppressed political prisoners in the world, why feel special sympathy for a nazi? ic might have made the statement to mean "you all forgot what rudolf hess did as a nazi" or something though.

― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 2 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

I'm really getting into listening to Les Bains Douches right now. 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' is brilliant on it - the mad, spiraling synths, the clanging percussion, and, of course, the urgent, off-the-cuff feel of the guitar playing. I like how Ian Curtis sings it fast. The intro on 'Transmission' is also fantastic.

The funny thing about the liner notes is that the kids next door have formed a ska punk band. They sound awful, but I think they're using a riff from a JD song in one of their songs.

― youn, Friday, 29 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

11 months pass...

I can't believe you're asking such a question. Had Ian lived, JD would have become one of the most celebrated indie acts around (like New Order) and in a way, did become that years later. You don't have to be a goth or a whining moron to relate with Curtis' lyrics. Ian wrote about the problems we all face and the troubles we have in our lives. I am deeply insulted by the fact that 'twat-head' was used in the same breath as IC's name!!!

― Tom Sanderson, Wednesday, 26 June 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

one of the most celebrated indie acts around

Damning with faint praise here, I think.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 June 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

10 months pass...

Last night I was listening to Permanent, not a very adequate collection, but the only Joy Division I have on CD. I wanted to say something but I'm not sure what exactly. I would not want to argue with anyone who couldn't enjoy this music because of Ian Curtis's singing. Possibly it would be hard for me to get past it now if I were hearing this music for the first time. But I still find some of these songs to be very powerful. The overall sound of the band is remarkable, though I'll be damned if I can put my finger on what it is in there sound that I like so much (and that sets them apart from other, somewhat similar-sounding, post-punk). I think I am personally mostly finished with this music. I listened to it very frequently, maybe excessively, for two or three years, and the experience of listening to it now is almost as much about remembering listening to it as it is about the sounds presently coming out of my speakers. I've been in such gloomy psychological places at times, and I just don't feel much attraction to the unrelenting gloom of many of these tracks. Some great music, though overly narrow emotionally. Still, when all the weighing out of strengths and weaknesses is finished, there's something there that I can't deny.

I am attached to the idea of Unknown Pleasures and Closer being albums, so the thought of having their tracks simply included on a set like Hear & Soul doesn't quite do it for me.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:26 (10 years ago) Permalink

The thing that's good about Heart & Soul is that it keeps the track listing of the albums intact.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:51 (10 years ago) Permalink

Does it? I like that idea. I didn't feel like actually checking the box set track listing against the two albums.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:55 (10 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 382 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I want to listen to that radio station.

― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 22:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

WXYC Chapel Hill - probably has an internet stream & is frankly awesome every day

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 17 August 2011 22:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

"the one by his widow is decent, markers. though you will finish it and think she's boring and he was a cunt."
it gives a different perspective that's true but it does not shed a lot of light on the music. i don't even remember if she liked it.

― alex in mainhattan, Thursday, 18 August 2011 15:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Mickey, Mickey will tear us apart. Again.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 5 November 2011 21:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

"Radiodisney/Goofy transmission"

― The Man With The Flavored Toothpick (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 5 November 2011 22:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

Epcot City Exhibition

― da croupier, Saturday, 5 November 2011 23:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

Ice Age

― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Saturday, 5 November 2011 23:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

When figures from the past stand tall
And mocking voices ring the hall
Imperialistic house of prayer
Conquistadors who took their share

― da croupier, Saturday, 5 November 2011 23:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

THEY KEEP CALLING ME
THEY KEEP CALLING ME
M-O-U-S-E
KEEP ON CALLING ME

― da croupier, Saturday, 5 November 2011 23:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

^^^ omfg

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 5 November 2011 23:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

looool

― latebloomer, Sunday, 6 November 2011 04:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

fucking horrifying

― answering_machine, Sunday, 6 November 2011 09:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

Also remarkable is that Hook and Sumner first started playing music in 1976 and by 1979 had released Unknown Pleasures.

― John Lennon, Sunday, 6 November 2011 12:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

I would totally rock that shirt. also, thanks for bumping this thread and reminding me that I need to put Closer in my car.

also also:

WXYC Chapel Hill - probably has an internet stream & is frankly awesome every day

fixed / <3 <3 <3

― bernard snowy, Sunday, 6 November 2011 14:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

PS I'm sure this has been brought up before but: how do y'all say Closer in yr heads/is there an established 'correct' reading?

― bernard snowy, Sunday, 6 November 2011 15:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

you know it man xp

it's "closer" in the sense of "nearer to," with the sibilant s, though I'm guessing this is something people have internet arguments about now, which is a good argument in favor of the pre-internet age

― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 15:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

Joy Division - Closer

― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 15:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

I thought it was "clo-say"

― da croupier, Sunday, 6 November 2011 15:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

RICK ROSS'S FORTHCOMING NEW ALBUM... CLO-SAY FEAT. 50 TYSON

― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 15:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

Clearly it's both at the same time, suggesting convergence at the end. That's how puns work, no?
― Michael Train, Monday, March 22, 2010 1:00 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark

^^^ this, to me. but I still always pronounced "clozer", I guess b/c it came to me thoroughly prepackaged as "Joy Division's final album"?

― bernard snowy, Sunday, 6 November 2011 15:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

― Z S, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 01:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

― cock chirea, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 02:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

ha!

― cock chirea, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 02:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

I saw the Mickey Joy Division shirt in the gift shop of the Aerosmith rollercoaster in November. I didn't realize it was Mickey, though, until I looked at my photos later!

― Fastnbulbous, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 05:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

Aerosmith rollercoaster

i keep getting stuck on these two words...is there an Aerosmith-themed ride at Disney World? Whoa!!

― SELF DEPORTATION (Z S), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 05:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

the aerosmith ride at disney is fucking awesome tbh

― dave cool, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 05:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

you said it, Dave!

― lost ai weiwei (Stevie D(eux)), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 14:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Please. I beg of you. STOP.

http://peterhook.co.uk/#/news/peter-hook-and-the-light-perform-still-for-the-first-ever-time-may-18th-19th-the-factory-mcr

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

Hahahahaha! Oh dear. I mean, I find this funny but I can see why some may not find it a laughing matter!

― Turrican, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

Oh it's hilarious, trust me. It is also goddamn nuts.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

Bit of an understatement there, Ned ;)

I don't think I've listened to Still in its entirety for years... it's easily been well over a decade now.

― Turrican, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

Via Facebook, a comment on the New Order forums:

"They should re-enact the events of May 1980 on stage, if they are doing it chronologically."

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

haha you know what I just realized, is the only Joy Division album I've heard front to back is Substance

how the hell did that happen

― Vaseline MEN AMAZING JOURNEY (DJP), Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

xpost:

Ouch!!

― Turrican, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 18:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

did someone see one of the "unknown pleasures" concerts? i can't help but i am pretty disgusted by this kind of cashing-in on the legacy of one of the greatest bands. does peter hook really need the money?

― alex in mainhattan, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 20:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

is he really going to do all the live tracks as well... Sister Ray?? oh god.....

― Talcum Mucker, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 21:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

maybe he can finally get round to doing that version of Louie Louie

― zappi, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 21:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

maybe he can finally get round to doing that version of Louie Louie

― zappi, Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:13 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahahahaha!!!

― Turrican, Tuesday, 28 February 2012 21:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

So it seems like some extracts from Peter Hook's Joy Division book have been published in the NME, including a hilarious anecdote about Ian pissing in an ashtray in a hotel room in Brussels (and getting caught and shouted at in French by a caretaker). There's also another anecdote about Rob Gretton, Peter Hook, Steve Morris and several others bursting into a hotel room to find Ian and Bernard in seperate beds with a naked girl for company each, and reacting to this by throwing lit fireworks around the room. Bernard was pissed off, Ian allegedly found it hilarious, and the two naked girls were terrified. "Hardly the erotic feast they might have been hoping for", I quote.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Sunday, 16 September 2012 18:02 (8 months ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

don't know where else to post this, but this is peter hook in NYT magazine today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/magazine/we-were-joy-division.html

It all started with the Sex Pistols. I saw them twice in 1976 — two gigs weeks apart at the Lesser Free Trade Hall in Manchester — Bernard Sumner (our guitarist) and I went together with a couple of friends to the first gig, and at the second gig I bumped into Ian Curtis, who would become our lead singer. They were only on for half an hour, but when they finished, we filed out quietly with our minds blown, absolutely utterly speechless, and it just sort of dawned on me then — that was it. On the way home that night we decided to form a band — Joy Division. The name was Ian’s idea.
By 1979, we hadn’t yet even made an album, but because we were being so productive, talk turned to making one. To be perfectly frank, we weren’t that fussy about whom we made it with. But in the meantime Martin Rushent invited us down to the studio to record some demos, just to see if we were going to jell. He’d produced the Buzzcocks and the Stranglers by this point, so we were very excited by the prospect.
When we got there, we saw that Rushent had a brand-new Jaguar XJS — and as it happened I’d been reading this article about how something like 9 out of 10 Jag owners don’t lock the boot of their car. So I thought, I wonder if that’s true. . . . Tried his boot and, lo and behold, it was unlocked. Inside, it was full of what I’m sure were stolen car radios; you could tell they were stolen by the way the wires were dangling off from where they’d been ripped out. Me and Terry, our roadie, were looking at each other, thinking, Martin’s got a boot full of stolen car radios. And then, Wonder if he’d miss a couple. . . .
All day, whenever there was a break in the recording, we’d be daring one another to go back in his boot and nick one each for our cars — because they were proper high-end stereos — but I was going: “Oh, no, we can’t, because he might be our record company. We can’t nick cassette players off our record company.” We didn’t take any. God knows what he was doing with them, though. We never asked him.
It was a really nice studio, and he worked well with Ian on the vocals, did a few overdubs and stuff, nothing wild, very low key. The tracks were “Glass,” “Transmission,” “Ice Age,” “Insight” and “Digital.” Rushent was a nice guy; we got on well.
That was the thing about Joy Division, though: writing the songs was dead easy because the group was really balanced. We had a great guitarist, a great drummer, a great bass player and a great singer. Ian would listen to us jamming and then direct the song until it was . . . a song. He stood there like a conductor and picked out the best bits. Which was why, when he killed himself a year later, it made everything so difficult. It was like driving a great car that had only three wheels. The loss of Ian opened up a hole in us, and we had to learn to write in a different way. We were so tight, as a group, we didn’t even use a tape recorder half the time. Didn’t need one.
Back then we didn’t know rules or theory. We had our ear, Ian, who listened and picked out the melodies. Then at some point his lyrics would appear. He always had these scraps of paper that he’d written things down on, and he’d go through his plastic bag. “Oh, I’ve got something that might suit that.” And the next thing you knew he’d be standing there with a piece of paper in one hand, wrapped around the microphone stand, with his head down, making the melodies work. We’d never hear what he was singing about in rehearsal because the equipment was so terrible. In his case it didn’t matter because he delivered the vocal with such a huge amount of passion and aggression, as if he really meant it.
I recently got offered the tape of that session with Rushent. Eden Studios was taken over by a firm of solicitors, and left in a storeroom, hidden in the bowels of it, were the Joy Division masters. One of the staff members claimed to have them and offered me the tape through a third party. He wanted £50,000 for it. This was in 2006 or something. Even then there was no way on earth you could make a record and hope to recoup 50 grand. I offered him a finder’s fee, two grand, but he said no, and I’ve never heard from him since; it’s never appeared. Ah, well. It’s a funny thing, people trying to sell you back bits of your own past. But I’m getting used to it, to be honest.
Peter Hook is a co-founder of the bands Joy Division and New Order. This essay is adapted from his memoir, “Unknown Pleasures,” published this month by HarperCollins.

― Z S, Saturday, 26 January 2013 20:46 (3 months ago) Permalink

That was the thing about Joy Division, though: writing the songs was dead easy because the group was really balanced. We had a great guitarist, a great drummer, a great bass player and a great singer.

hahahaha. yep, if you had to be specific about what made the group balanced, it really comes down to how great each member was.

― Z S, Saturday, 26 January 2013 20:49 (3 months ago) Permalink

reads better than:

On the way home that night we decided to form a band — Warsaw. Stiff Kittens or something.

― dan selzer, Saturday, 26 January 2013 20:55 (3 months ago) Permalink

sounds like Hooky begging for his former job back.

― the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 26 January 2013 21:06 (3 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

I know he is a figure of fun here these days but I'm about a third of the way through Hooky's JD memoir and am really enjoying it. What am I missing?

― Johnny Too Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 March 2013 21:56 (1 month ago) Permalink

I finally get it!
― adam. (nordicskilla), Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:18 PM (8 years ago)

― j., Friday, 29 March 2013 02:06 (1 month ago) Permalink

Looking at it now, I guess my question reads along the lines of something like " if the Velvet Underground are so popular, why are there so many threads making fun of Lou Reed?"

― Johnny Too Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 March 2013 02:53 (1 month ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

http://adamcap.com/2011/05/19/history-of-joy-division-unknown-pleasures-album-art/

― calstars, Sunday, 19 May 2013 01:31 (5 days ago) Permalink

Where is the image of the parody t-shirt which was on another thread recently?

― Beam Me Up (I Feel Like Being A) Doomsday Machine (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 May 2013 01:35 (5 days ago) Permalink

i think that was on Defend the Indefensible: Joy Division, one of my favorite thread titles on this site because of its.. i think the word used here is "challopsy-ness". anyway, does anyone else love the song Interzone? one of my top 5 JD tracks easily

― Michigan seems like a dream to me now (Treeship), Sunday, 19 May 2013 01:40 (5 days ago) Permalink

Interzone is great. I've got this cycle going now where I get the N.F. Porter song "Keep On Keepin' On," which has a very similar riff (and according to the JD documentary they were encouraged to cover by a manager, I think) going through my head and then Warsaw's version, then the Joy Division version and back again.

― benedict crumbsnatcher (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Sunday, 19 May 2013 05:36 (5 days ago) Permalink

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