Rza is the Thelonious Monk of hip hop?

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I've heard this comparison made a number of times, most recently from Jim Jarmusch. Who said it first and how is it apt? I don't get it. I does sound pretty cool though.

― some best friend, Saturday, 27 August 2005 13:21 (eighteen years ago) link

kerrazy piano hooks.

― Ian John50n (orion), Saturday, 27 August 2005 13:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think it's apt - as talented as he is, RZA didn't revolutionize his particular art in the same scale as Monk did. Monk's influence over jazz is, I'd say, bigger than RZA's over rap. RZA brought certain progressions in rap producing to the extreme, but the tendencies were already there, so he isn't as revolutionary a figure as Monk.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 27 August 2005 13:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually, I think it's a surprisingly good analogy.

― Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 27 August 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

I have to disagree, Tuomas. I think RZA changed the face of production and influenced half of what's come after him. What Monk did wasn't completely without precedent, either.

― I Ain't No Addict, Whoever Heard of a Junkie as Old as Me? (noodle vague), Saturday, 27 August 2005 15:33 (eighteen years ago) link

Exactly. Majorly influenced by Duke Ellington and too many stride pianists to mention.

― Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 27 August 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...

Here's an analogy for you from AMG:

"It's easy to write Monk's ferocity and Forrest Gump-esque ingenuity off as gimmick or quirkiness. What cannot be dismissed is Monk's ability to" blah blah blah

Monk = Forrest Gump? This horrifies me, but it's hard to argue that if not retarded, his melodies are at least skewed, funny-looking, and have a slight limp. I guess what bothers me is the implication that he stumbled on them by accident through the benevolent force of sheer stupidity. That's wrong.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Monday, 26 December 2005 00:51 (eighteen years ago) link

that analogy is absolutely horrific. but rza = monk isnt so bad, both quirky, influential, prolific

i would go further to say that run, biggie = charlie parker, ghostface = eric dolphy, dr dre = miles davis. coltrane is harder. jay z maybe? or tupac?

― hjio, Monday, 26 December 2005 01:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I've always though that Neil Young's solo on "Cowgirl In The Sand" has something in common with Coltrane.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Monday, 26 December 2005 01:31 (eighteen years ago) link

This idea of matching jazz guys to hiphop guys is pretty much a huge stinking pantload.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 26 December 2005 01:33 (eighteen years ago) link

How is it apt? They're both douchebags?

― regular roundups (Dave M), Monday, 26 December 2005 01:48 (eighteen years ago) link

This idea of matching jazz guys to hiphop guys is pretty much a huge stinking pantload.

What he said.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Monday, 26 December 2005 01:51 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean, I love RZA and I love Monk, but that doesn't make them similar in any way that I can think of. About the only thing in "Can't Stop Won't Stop" that really drove me nuts was when Chang wrote that although Chuck D boasted about being like Coltrane, it was really Rakim who deserved the comparison.

Explain how, Jeff. Really. If you make it good, I'd love to hear it.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 26 December 2005 02:45 (eighteen years ago) link

why does it stink? i think it's apt. both jazz soloists and rappers have distinctive styles and dont write songs per se; they adapt their style to a beat. a verse, like a solo, is a continuous development of a theme that rarely repeats itself like a melody in a rock or folk song does. i guess rakim is more like parker than biggie, maybe; both invented a new, highly technical take on a preexisting genre which subsequently became somehwat of a dominant paradigm. and i suppose that rza's fractured sounding beats could be likened to monk's sometimes fractured melodies. i guess that one really ultimately doesn't super hold up. or maybe its cause they're both like FORREST GUMP!!!!!!!!!

― jklvxc, Monday, 26 December 2005 03:42 (eighteen years ago) link

both horse trainers and race car drivers have distinctive styles and don't write songs per se.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Monday, 26 December 2005 04:09 (eighteen years ago) link

why dont you refute what i said. because i am interested in your assertion regarding the stinkiness. are you calling q-tip's father an idiot?

― hfdjdk, Monday, 26 December 2005 04:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i love matching jazz guys and the wu tang clan to other things.
rza = chief wiggam
cappadonna = mr & mrs t bloddy mary mix
art blakey = u god's second album
you can go on forever.

― howell huser (chaki), Monday, 26 December 2005 07:05 (eighteen years ago) link

I think Rza and Monk have more in common in terms of their place in their genre, than anything else. They're both so quirky and unique and talented that a lot of people respect them but not a lot of people try to replicate them.

― ______, Monday, 26 December 2005 08:45 (eighteen years ago) link

greg tate wrote that :
"As his production for the first salvo of Wu releases proved, RZA also had band-leading and arranging skills of the Ellington/Clinton stripe, where music is developed with a very specific understanding of orchestra members' idiosyncrasies:"

― okok, Monday, 26 December 2005 12:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Okay, I can see the comparison as far as bandleading skills. But that's not what Monk was about at all. Monk wrote a total of what - 50 or so songs in his life, and recorded them over and over with various bands and solo. What made his tunes and playing stand out was unusual dissonnance and rhythm. I guess RZA uses more dissonance than most producers (Primo does even more of this, though) but his rhythms are strictly the foursquare boom-bap. Primo's stuttering drums and cuts are a better match as far as that goes, but still don't really resemble Monk's approach.

As far as comparing rappers to horn players, that gets even weirder. Horn players are mostly about inventing melodies, and rappers don't often mess with that at all. When melody does enter into a rappers repitoire it's usually more about putting conversational tones into their flow than improvising in a diatonic or even chromatic scale. I suppose you might be able to draw a comparison between (say) Rakim and some freejazzy type who's playing with microtones, and maybe that's what Chang was talking about in that Coltrane comparison, but I think of Coltrane as either the 'sheets of sound' or skronk and that stuff doesn't exist in Rakim's flow at all.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 26 December 2005 13:07 (eighteen years ago) link

why are people always trying to find equivalents in other genres for hip hop artists? its like even in 2005, people are STILL trying to gain hip hop people respect by saying theyre like such and such great figure in jazz or whatever when usually the comparisons are really off base. hip hop is its own thing...

― okok, Monday, 26 December 2005 13:37 (eighteen years ago) link

on the mixingboard

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 26 December 2005 13:45 (eighteen years ago) link

hahaha, yeah, cant you hear those beautiful 9th, 11th, and 13ths in rakim's flow, that's exactly what i was saying ...

look, you think i think hip hop needs some legitimation from jazz, then you are incapable of reading. ilm really has become agonizingly purposefully obtuse

― hjkfdshjk, Monday, 26 December 2005 15:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Now I'm really confused. If you don't think the comparison is helpful to explain how hiphop works musically, and you don't think hiphop needs to borrow respect from jazz, why make the comparison?

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 26 December 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

doodz off kilter rhythms wtf

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Monday, 26 December 2005 17:02 (eighteen years ago) link

RZA was in "scary movie 3". did monk do any acting?

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:34 (eighteen years ago) link

and if we're talking "off kilter rhythms", surely we should be nominating elephant man for thelonious monkdom?

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:35 (eighteen years ago) link

ok elephant man is officially the thelonious monk of dancehall

nominations for the monk of rock?

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Tuesday, 27 December 2005 00:50 (eighteen years ago) link

the aforementioned neil jung.

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Tuesday, 27 December 2005 03:13 (eighteen years ago) link

but others would undoubtedly argue fo beefheart. but beefheart is more like electric miles.

this is fucking retarded, but did you all know that monk's Thelonious Monk Trio (prestige 189) is the first punk rock record? A full twenty years before the first Ramones rehearsals!

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Tuesday, 27 December 2005 03:21 (eighteen years ago) link

uh, hello?

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/html/mulligan/images/gerry-monk.jpg http://www.vh1.com/shared/media/news/images/r/RZA/sq_rza_shao_lin_temple.jpg

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 27 December 2005 22:43 (eighteen years ago) link

OTM

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Wednesday, 28 December 2005 17:12 (eighteen years ago) link

ding ding ding we have a winner

― mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 28 December 2005 17:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Rza sampled Monk Plays Ellington at least twice in the 36 Chambers era

― mucho, Saturday, 31 December 2005 19:38 (eighteen years ago) link

nine years pass...

Sounds like RZA might have sampled the opening piano bit for an ODB track, and Premiere might have sampled the sax part that enters after the first 11 seconds. If no one's touched it then what a missed opportunity.

― collectivegaze, Friday, 3 July 2015 16:25 (eight years ago) link

I'm talking about "Brilliant Corners" by Thelonious Monk...

― collectivegaze, Friday, 3 July 2015 16:26 (eight years ago) link

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