Why?
I'm sure he is a bad thing, in general, but I'm not sure why. What is he doing wrong? Is it the music he listens to, or the way he listens to it? Is he actually doing any real damage? Is he relevant any more? Why is he so much worse than the Okayplayer crowd anyway?
This kind of guy (generalise from your own experience) also listens to a set list of indie and IDM types, but you never hear indie fans complaining about how Super Furry Animals fans are ruining indie, or electronica types talking about "Yet _another_ Aphex Twin fan". Is it just the music then, rather than the person?
Or does, as I kind of suspect, it all come down to the fact that most hip-hop critics are still white, middle class, university educated types, and so when they get talking to people who say "Oh, I love hip-hop as well", they end up talking to this kind of person, and end up taking it out in their writings than with them face to face?
I'm seriously interested on this one, and I have no real answers. Do discuss.
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 22:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 July 2005 22:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― o, Monday, 25 July 2005 22:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 July 2005 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link
no, this is music college students listened to in the late 90s. maybe this is why we're hating on them. it's passe already.
― The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Monday, 25 July 2005 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― o, Monday, 25 July 2005 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link
-- Dom Passantino (juror...), July 25th, 2005.
you know what the worst bit is?
at least several uni friends have said this or simular to me:
"You love music don't you? Have you heard much Jack Johnson".
Hand me a sawn-off shotgun i'll do it.
― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 July 2005 22:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:01 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:06 (eighteen years ago) link
It terrifies me.
― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:07 (eighteen years ago) link
Can I get my own grandmother pregnant first?
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― PB, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:11 (eighteen years ago) link
Instead of the national anthem, he could do that wonderful song he recorded with Handsome Boy Modelling School.
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:13 (eighteen years ago) link
"Unforgivable Whiteness"
― PB, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link
I'm pretty sure this is it, people half-remember arguements that were used against them four years ago and try and use it as their own opinions now that they're "loving this music unironically".
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:20 (eighteen years ago) link
The thread should have been locked after this.
(There's nothing wrong with liking Shadow or El-P or J5 or Prefuse.. duh. I think it's a case where the "this is hip hop that's KEEPIN IT REAL" strawman fan gets blown to proportions in relation to those artists or similar, and then one who admits liking these folks gets assumed to *be* that strawman or strawwoman, and becomes the whipping person, unfortunately gets defensive about said artists because he/she may or may not have listened to "real" "urban" "mainstream" hip-hop, vicious cycle, blah blah blah blah blah.... everyone should be sentenced to go to their local bookstore and read the Kool Herc intro to Jeff Chang's hip hop book... I recommend they buy it and read it, too.. but they should be required to at least read the intro.)
― donut ferry (donut), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― huell howser (chaki), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:40 (eighteen years ago) link
How long have you been out of college for?
― Tumililingan (ex machina), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― donut ferry (donut), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tumililingan (ex machina), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:46 (eighteen years ago) link
Ouch. Help me. I think I've laughed so hard that I've broken something.
I don't mind Jack Johnson. He seems like he'd be fun to smoke up with and then he'd sing you a pretty song.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:46 (eighteen years ago) link
This may be hard to believe, but this stereotype can apply to people *outside* college too! And they may even hate Shadow and J5, and love Ja-Rule and Nas! OMG!
― donut ferry (donut), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― donut ferry (donut), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:59 (eighteen years ago) link
I mean, if you're singing along and goofing on shit, then you're liking it in some way, right? I was talking to someone who just graduated high school and I think that's probably the way she sees most radio hip-hop/r&b. It's really no more ridiculous than any other music, but all the innuendo and raps about panty lines just doesn't really describe your life at that age.
― mike h. (mike h.), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:01 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― donut ferry (donut), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:33 (eighteen years ago) link
Otherwise, the whole Shadow/J5/Diplo/Prefuse/R2Dj2/whatever fan stereotype is just as much a strawman as any white guy who wants to live black and doesn't "do it accurately enough" because that's borne from a comedic, mainstream strawman/stereotype, period.
― donut ferry (donut), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:36 (eighteen years ago) link
I think the border line is how the possible strawman feels about dead prez's "(bigger than) hip hop." Is it real enough? Does the production make it too commercial? Have they only heard of it because they're kanye trainspotting after finding their direction in life through "college dropout?"
I saw J5 for a second time sometime around 2003 (2002?) and I almost fell asleep because they decided to perform pretty much every song they ever recorded. I swear, it went on foreeeeever. Also, is this strawman responsible for all kinds of college kids thinking every DJ is a turntablist? Because jesus, if I could blame it for every guy who's made some sort of "wicky wicky scratch" noise during a discussion about djing it'd clear up some emotional issues.
― mike h. (mike h.), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:28 (eighteen years ago) link
― asbo, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― 2, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:50 (eighteen years ago) link
Anyway, so I don't really get the issue. What're the sides we're discussing here? That folks who still listen to J5/DJ Shadow (I personally think he is far above and beyong any J5 link)/RJD2 aren't listening to the "real shit?" And those listening to the "real shit" think the J5/DJ Shadow/RJD2 fans have no clue? What's the issue?
And where do Tribe and De La fall in all this? I think and argument of the non-real shit fan is maybe "positivity" or "talking about things I can actually relate to." At least those are the arguments I can remember from my college days. But I still can't take a side or provide a real argument because I don't really know what the question is.
― matt2 (matt2), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 02:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― donut ferry (donut), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 03:27 (eighteen years ago) link
― Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link
I think that for a lot of people (I'm not necessarily one of them), J5 and Shadow represent a museum curator's approach to hip-hop, a sort of "4 elements 4 life" nostalgia that keeps rap's aesthetic locked in a time capsule from which it can never evolve. Ergo, the white college kid who champions these artists is, in fact, speaking a dead language.
― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 03:49 (eighteen years ago) link
http://www.costumeexpo.com/Products/hats/character/thumbs/strawman.jpg
― phlegm pyle (eman), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 04:28 (eighteen years ago) link
Oh – De La pwns all over Talib, Mos Def, and Jurassic 5. Have you listened to their beats? Their last album shows no slackening.
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 13:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 13:37 (eighteen years ago) link
haha yeah i think this is key. the new strawman regards jay-z playing glastonbury in 2008 as a great leap forward.
Back in the day, we built our strawmen from people we saw walking round university campuses. Now we build them based on late twentysomethings we read on the internet.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 10:57 (fifteen years ago) link
pretty much, though i am still a student!
― the face of fashion in soho square (special guest stars mark bronson), Thursday, 29 January 2009 10:58 (fifteen years ago) link
This kind of guy (generalise from your own experience) also listens to a set list of indie and IDM types, but you never hear indie fans complaining about how Super Furry Animals fans are ruining indie, or electronica types talking about "Yet _another_ Aphex Twin fan".
Haha RONG.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 10:59 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah isn't Aphex Twin the signifier for someone claiming "I'm not really into that dance stuff, although I don't mind Come to Daddy?" Dance music for 6Music listeners. Again, I like Aphex Twin!
― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Thursday, 29 January 2009 11:05 (fifteen years ago) link
sopering point but this autumn's fresher intake were not born when aphex put out his first record, so they're not going to be invested in his work in quite the same way as us old lags.
― the face of fashion in soho square (special guest stars mark bronson), Thursday, 29 January 2009 11:06 (fifteen years ago) link
sobering. hic.
Since it's not 1998 any more, you probably need to substitute Aphex Twin for The Bug or Burial or someone.
Actually this strawman still pops up in my head whenever I look at the Friday night listings for Fabric. These people will always exist, unless weed suddenly disappears from the surface of the earth.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 11:07 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm old, just not down with the hippy students any more.
― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Thursday, 29 January 2009 11:14 (fifteen years ago) link
Come To Daddy would be morelike the token pick for 'open minded'-but-not-really metal fans FWIW (Dillinger Escape Plan covered it for example)
― I'm Throwing Small Arms Around Powys (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 29 January 2009 11:35 (fifteen years ago) link
good thread.
bring back the old Dom!
― Keep The Dawgs Away (Ioannis), Thursday, 29 January 2009 12:06 (fifteen years ago) link
Amount of people who know I like hip-hop and have tried bringing up scroobius pip or whatever that shit is in the past 6 months: 7.
Amount of people who know I like hip-hop and have talked to me about Jurassic 5/Dj Shadow etc. ever: O.
Amount of people who have talked to me about Lil Wayne/T.I.: 1.
I hate only knowing students.
― a hoy hoy, Thursday, 29 January 2009 13:09 (fifteen years ago) link
yikes, i just ran into the blog post that inspired this revive by accident.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 29 January 2009 13:51 (fifteen years ago) link
A producer and a poet from Essex weren't the most likely candidates to become the saviours of intelligent hip-hop, but with Scroobius Pip's wit and biting social commentary backed up by Dan le Sac's 8-bit bleeps and beats, it's hard to disagree.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 29 January 2009 13:52 (fifteen years ago) link
Should we invite that dude on her to defend himself?
― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 January 2009 13:52 (fifteen years ago) link
unfortunate typo there robinho.
― a hoy hoy, Thursday, 29 January 2009 13:56 (fifteen years ago) link
it really takes a lot to raise my ire these days when it comes to music, but le sac and pip do it every. single. time.
so yes let's get that blogger on here.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 29 January 2009 13:59 (fifteen years ago) link
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oa218zfUV7w/SQXLDuHTbwI/AAAAAAAAACo/5Sfuh4worQE/S220/Head.jpg
http://musicfromagreenwindow.blogspot.com/
― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:03 (fifteen years ago) link
...."scroobius pip?"
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:18 (fifteen years ago) link
In an age where hip-hop stars are regularly lambasted for inciting violence, misogyny and homophobia, and where a lot of the time this is true, it could be all too easy to slip into a jaded view of the whole genre. But by dismissing it out of hand, a whole world of musical pioneering could be missed - for every Ludacris there's a Mos Def, for every G-Unit there's a De La Soul. Hip-Hop can have something to say, and it can be as meaningful as any lyric sung by some misanthropic indie singer.
― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark
also, dunno where that's from, but it *sounds* like something from my high school newspaper
Dan Le Sac should've produced 'Slime And Reason'
― O Supermanchiros (blueski), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:25 (fifteen years ago) link
Haha I was about to say, surely this strawman grew up and started writing for Hip-Hop Connection?
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:32 (fifteen years ago) link
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, July 25, 2005 7:09 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
lol italians
― and what, Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:34 (fifteen years ago) link
She's dead now :-(
― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:37 (fifteen years ago) link
hope you're happy and what
― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:38 (fifteen years ago) link
i got nothing...
― O Supermanchiros (blueski), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:38 (fifteen years ago) link
of course not. he said she's dead, didn't he?
― Keep The Dawgs Away (Ioannis), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:41 (fifteen years ago) link
As if by magic, Chipmunk's new single has just come on the radio and seems a brazen attempt to appeal to this market. :(
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:46 (fifteen years ago) link
what, dead grannies?
― O Supermanchiros (blueski), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:47 (fifteen years ago) link
Nothing to do with dead grannies, no. I'm not sure what magic has to do with anything either really.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:49 (fifteen years ago) link
"Sometimes songs will reappear in your head for no reason. You'll start humming a tune, and only recognise what that song is a minute later. I love it when this happens, it's a true affirmation of loving a song, that it's buried almost subconsciously into you. For me, today, it was "Midnight Surprise" by Lightspeed Champion."
― Architect of the Geocities (Raw Patrick), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:52 (fifteen years ago) link
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/420368047_f9160de2b6.jpg?v=1173822608
― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:53 (fifteen years ago) link
If Lightspeed Champion had sold some records, we could easily have used him as a punchline more often.
Or if he had a drummer
― I'm Throwing Small Arms Around Powys (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 29 January 2009 14:56 (fifteen years ago) link
Can't think of any other pop musician to have had no sales bump whatsoever after an untimely death. RIP big man.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 15:01 (fifteen years ago) link
I used to know a lot of "heads" (all white guys, natch) who listened to music such as this on their studio quality headphones while walking around town, their dreadlocked hair tucked neatly into their rastafarian hats
― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:00 (fifteen years ago) link
Man, that must have been an awful fictional town.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:02 (fifteen years ago) link
Bay Area, late 90s. But thanks for calling.
― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:03 (fifteen years ago) link
"Bay Area" indeed!
― O Supermanchiros (blueski), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:08 (fifteen years ago) link
Berkeley, if you want to be specific.
― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:08 (fifteen years ago) link
cliche area
― and what, Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:09 (fifteen years ago) link
most of them seemed to live in the co-ops, now that I think about it.
― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:09 (fifteen years ago) link
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oa218zfUV7w/SQXLDuHTbwI/AAAAAAAAACo/5Sfuh4worQE/S220/Head.jpgCLICHE AREA
― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:09 (fifteen years ago) link
I see. So now if you witness something, you should change the place you saw it to be "less cliche."
― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:10 (fifteen years ago) link
that last Shadow album did pretty much suck tho (except 3 Freaks) right?
― O Supermanchiros (blueski), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:12 (fifteen years ago) link
http://www.fulana.org/images/if-you-see-something.JPG
― and what, Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:12 (fifteen years ago) link
― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:00 (1 hour ago) Bookmark
Where is Ed?
― Architect of the Geocities (Raw Patrick), Thursday, 29 January 2009 18:16 (fifteen years ago) link
no hat on Ed, he lets it flow
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 29 January 2009 18:17 (fifteen years ago) link
"that last Shadow album did pretty much suck tho (except 3 Freaks) right?"
shadow basically started hating his fans. more 'corny indie rap fuxor' self hate.
― uk grime faggot (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 29 January 2009 20:10 (fifteen years ago) link
lol otm
― The Reverend (rev), Thursday, 29 January 2009 20:58 (fifteen years ago) link
lol otm― The Reverend (rev), Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:58 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark
― The Reverend (rev), Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:58 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark
― brightscreamer, Thursday, 29 January 2009 21:12 (fifteen years ago) link