I want a reaction 2 my views on free-jazz dammit!

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I have only read a few posts on this thread but i get the pic. I have tried 2 dig free jazz. I have listened 2 it and i have tried 2 c wat i cud not c in it, what i was missing, wat i didnt get. I like avant-garde jazz because it is definitley different from free jazz. The only thing i have managed 2 appreciate is Coltranes' Interstellar space. But i think there is mass confusion about free jazz. This will prob b the most controversial post on this thread! I have come 2 the conclusion (prob temporarily after conversing with many people) that free jazz is just noise! There is no way it is anything else but an experiment that caught on. All u guys like free jazz prob just because alot of the jazz masters turned on 2 it but hey, wasnt the 60's the decade when drug use rocketed? I think free jazz was just jazz musicians experimenting while off their heads! I still experience dis-illusionment about this subject but i cud not sit on the fence any longer. I had 2 choose a side. Coltrane was a heroin addict remember! Heresey i may hear u cry but, i love Coltrane, but u cant seriously tell me u prefer him 2 make a noise rather than what he is playin on Blue train?
I used 2 b a musician myself and i understand the frustration that chord changes can cause but free jazz is just silly.....noise!(?)

― Morgman (Morg), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

For example, I just downloaded 'Vibrations' by Albert Ayler. Am i missing something? Or is this album just noise also?

― Morgman (Morg), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

i prefer v.late coltrane to early or mid coltrane (early = when he wz an addict)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

i have one reaction (and i may come back later with opinions on your views): please spell out words. all this "2 b c wat cud" business is driving me mad.

― The JaXoN 5 (JasonD), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

I was daunted by Ornette's Free Jazz LP, and when I finally took the plunge it didn't sound all that different from his other 60s stuff.
But i've always felt vaguely guilty about preferring Coltrane's Atlantic sides so I hear you.

― lovebug starski (lovebug starski), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

haha ornette wz ticked off by the term free jazz cz he tht everyone wd want to listen w/o paying!!

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

did you only have one channel working lovebug?

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

i prefer early or mid coltrane to v.late coltrane (i am a chocoholic)

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

xpost
maybe. I was listening for the sound of one hand clapping. OMMMMMMM

― lovebug starski (lovebug starski), Monday, 21 March 2005 23:59 (4 years ago) Permalink

i prefer mid coltrane to late or early (but not including love supreme)

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 00:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

Sorry about that Jaxon man! I will spell all words correctly from now on.

― Morgman (Morg), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 00:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

In general, I prefer Relaxin', Steamin', Workin', Cookin' and even Walkin' to later Miles Davis records. BUT DON'T TELL ANYBODY!

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 00:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

i prefer mid period miles to early or late or very late.

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 00:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

i prefer george coleman era miles. damn you wayne shorter!

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:01 (4 years ago) Permalink

Is that a funny, scott?

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

i love george coleman. okay, i kinda love wayne too.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

i think it was tony williams who told miles to pick up wayne and ditch george.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

Is it "just noise?" No. Music is noise organized in time. There are different methods of organization.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

i heart schizophrenia. um, by wayne shorter.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:08 (4 years ago) Permalink

sonny sharrock lurks on wayne shorter's supernova (speaking of noise), this & schizo are 2 of blue note's most "out" releases but not really "free jazz" I guess. a very kind friend gave me a promo copy of the miles/7 steps to heaven box w/uncle george and if I can pull myself away from here tomorrow I'm gonna play it.

― lovebug starski (lovebug starski), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

coltrane/coleman/shorter. people forget.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 03:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

Albert Ayler often made a funny skronky noise but i don't think he's particularly complicated. Free Jazz itself is a big noise blanket that's meant to be wrapped around and drifted thru. I don't think anybody's trying to pull your leg, and there's no compulsion to like awkwardness. But noise is as logical as melody.

― Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 03:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

my reaction: learn 2 write, pls, u douchebag.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 03:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

"i have one reaction (and i may come back later with opinions on your views): please spell out words. all this "2 b c wat cud" business is driving me mad." - the Jaxon 5

"my reaction: learn 2 write, pls, u douchebag." - hstencil

So you guys are intelligent enough to interpret and appreciate music and go on to formulate your own opinions, but clearly not intelligent enough to use numbers to replace words. (2 = to, get it?!?)

Why do you find it so difficult to put aside your pathetic snobbery and answer the question?

― dmun, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 10:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

DNFTT

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 11:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

Hi, Morgman, you're the first person who has ever expressed this opinion anywhere. As a result of your views, I have reconsidered every moment of alleged enjoyment I have ever gotten from so-called "free jazz". Although, after this careful reconsideration, I have come to the conclusion that you are a prize dope, I do welcome your input.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 11:28 (4 years ago) Permalink

Coltrane wasn't a heroin addict when he was doing his free stuff

― Dadrock Holmes (Dada), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 12:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

... oops, mark already said that

― Dadrock Holmes (Dada), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 12:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

(xpost)

Unlike the person who started this thread

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 12:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

So what is the explanation for creating free-jazz then if at least Coltrane wasn't on drugs at the time? I am determined to get to the bottom of free jazz, and also i would like to find out whether certain people who initially reacted 2 free jazz with negativity when it first appeared were correct with their views. There must be alot of people out there who hate free jazz or are atleast confused about it. I would like 2 know what trad-jazz fans think of free stuff. And maybe alot of u guys couldnt change your mind on free jazz now because, how embarassing would that be if you had been listening to it for years an then u suddenly realise it might be one big con? Thank you for acknowledging the significance of my post Colin Meeder.

― Morgman (Morg), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:08 (4 years ago) Permalink

The noisiest free jazz disc I have ever heard was Trey Anastasio's "Surrender To The Air".

Featured Artists:
Marshall Allen - saxaphone
Trey Anastasio - guitar
Kofi Burbridge - flute
Oteil Burbridge - bass
Damon R. Choice - xylaphone
Jon Fishman - drums
Bob Gullotti - percussion
James Harvey - trombone
John Medeski - keyboards
Michael Ray - trumpet
Marc Ribot - guitar

It is complete noise, but it actually sounds cool and relaxing. You feel clean when it's over like all the crap has been blasted out of you. I first played it on headphones walking through times square and was completely confused, at times afraid to cross streets for fear I may be run over.

audio samples here:
http://phish.com/releases/detail.php?ID=13

― Eleventy-Twelve (Eleventy-Twelve), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

coltrane/coleman/shorter. people forget.
Yeah, it's terrible. I just got an email from George, Jr, about a gig he is playing this weekend.

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

The audio samples are pretty decent and long, btw. Check it out. Noise.

― Eleventy-Twelve (Eleventy-Twelve), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

Not sure why I'm even bothering but ok.

With regards to Vibrations, you're missing a lot. Ayler is definitely not just noise. He was taking these very old and simple gospel/folk melodies and translating them into a new context, free of harmonic contraints, although you'll notice (or maybe you won't notice) there is considerable harmonic complexity almost by accident (or a result of years of practicing in a structured way) happening between Cherry and Ayler. Also, there's a definite rhythm, though elastic, on all those tunes as well. Improvising w/o a net is a skill that takes developing. The collective improv on Vibrations in particular, which harks back to New Orleans jazz of the '20s (along with the marching rhythms and blaring, calling horns, & gospel moans recalls a New Orleans funeral setting), is a further defined skill that takes patience and the ability to listen intently and react musically. Further, the ability to collectively build and shape this music from the raw materials of melody, harmony and rhythm, on history, spiritual aim and influence, in a spontaneous and unfettered way to create a moment of something bigger than the sum of its parts, is what Ayler and company do.

Really, it's why you would listen to any music, to locate a moment of transcendence that makes you feel good about being human, whether a purposeful aim or not. If you can enjoy it, great. If not, find something you do enjoy, let others enjoy what they enjoy and stop making blanket pompous generalizations. Really now, why can't I enjoy Interstellar Space more than Blue Train?

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

Saying you don't like it and don't understand it = VALID RESPONSE.

Saying you don't like it and people who do has to be either crazy or tone deaf or on drugs = ignorant, potentially inflammatory, yet still a VALID RESPONSE.

Saying you don't like it, NOBODY likes it and anyone who claims to like it is lying = INVALID RESPONSE! In fact, it's utter bullshit, and an infuriating claim always guaranteed to make me react after being subjected to it so many times over the years. Look at the name of this website: "I Love Music". That's why we're here. People have strong opinions, and if they don't like something, you better believe they'll say so. I personally have no idea why anybody would listen to, say, Half Japanese for enjoyment; but I know that some do. And if they say so, I take their word, and even envy & admire 'em somewhat. The only ones I distrust would be record label scum who are forced to gush over music they would never listen without financial gain for themselves.

As far as free jazz goes...the more you listen to, the less noisy & unstructured it seems; and time signatures & key centres begin to sound like prisons. I wasn't "conned" into liking the stuff any more than I was conned into eating lima beans by my mother. And if I ever quit liking the stuff (entirely possible, though not yet), it'll because of changing tastes or the wearying effects of old age, NOT because I'll have been retroactively "wrong", whatever that means.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

as a small thing i READ about "free jazz" as the MOST EXTREME HORRIBLE NOISE EVER and tracked it down eagerly and wz thus v.disappointed when i first heard it, as it is NOT extreme, NOT hard to follow, not a SHOCK TO MY ENTIRE SYSTEM

the thing my small self wz possibly wanting wz like merzbow or i don't know what: by the time it existed (two decades later?) i wz no longer so big on this idea anyway, so who cares

ornette rocks

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:14 (4 years ago) Permalink

my boss thinks all jazz, free or not, is noise.

― The JaXoN 5 (JasonD), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

This typing style: "i have tried 2 c wat i cud not c in it" is far more painful and n01z3 than any free jazz album could ever aspire to be.

― Holly (an appletross), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

i really really love the idea that at some point a whole genre of music could be unmasked Wiz-of-Oz-style as having been ONE GIANT CON ALL ALONG but free-jazz would be the absolutely most boring/non-revelatory/anticlimactic type of music it could happen to

― jones (actual), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

i want a reaction 2 my views on SKIFFLE dammit

― jones (actual), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

the great polka scam!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

This reminds me of another thread which blamed people's enjoyment of free jazz on tokenism and hipsterism, ie the brand of jazz to be purchased at Other Music.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

Which seems to me is a better argument. "IT'S SO NOISY" is kinda wimpy. Listen to one teh BEAULIEAU, EMIL.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

It doesnt matter if i say 'c wat i cudnt c' or 'see what i couldn't see', its still readable! And focusing on that triviality is avoiding the question. There are millions of people out there that use the same short hand. The forum is called 'I love music' remember not 'I love correct spelling'. And just because so many people out there like free jazz doesn't mean to say that it cant bE noise. I am glad u concentrated on the question MCD and not my spelling. And also, don't think for a minute that i haven't thought about that i think free-jazz is noise just because i don't understand it but, right now i don't see anything there to understand at all. I may be wrong! I think free jazz is probably the most likely music to be un-masked if it ever did happen.

― Morgman (Morg), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

The forum is called 'I love music' remember not 'I love correct spelling'
In fact it should be called "I Heart Typohs," something like that.

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

Hmmm. The only thing, really, to "understand" is that the basic premise was to improvise without necessarily sticking to chord patterns or scales or meter or even a pulse. There's no rule of law saying that Western harmony is the foundation of all music and therefore jazz players SHOULD NEVER DO THIS. And there are plenty of musics from plenty of civilizations that don't have a steady pulse.

It wasn't a con, morgman, it was a genuine interest in expanding the boundaries of jazz to allow for more freedom of choice.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:35 (4 years ago) Permalink

WE EXPOSE THE SALSA CONSPIRACY!!

"People always asked me what it 'meant' and I had no answer!! I feel I have let everyone down, myself included" admits shamed musicologist

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

Seemingly complicated music inevitably becomes more understandable on repeated listenings. Your brain is wired to perceive patterns. Even a series of totally randomly generated tones would "reveal" these patterns on repeated listening. As frequently pointed out above, Free Jazz is anything but randomly generated tones.

Nothing's compulsory to "get", but what sort of inverted arrogant snobbery would make you think people pretend to enjoy something? Life's too short.

Just like it's too short to write in ugly, convoluted txtspEk.

― Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

stop dissin txtspeak all u bastards!!

morgman just writes it v.bAdLy!!

FFS!! LOL!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

txtspk is the glitchcore of the mobile nation :p :b :P :B

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

GLITCHCORE UNMASKED!!

"we thought we liked it, " said saddened wire readers earlier today, "but it turns out our enjoyment was merely a by-product artefact of digital technology"

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

I just sit at home listening to Merzbow on my own to look cool.

This is also the reason I smoke and swear.

― Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

i wear the sleeves of old lol coxhill records as a v.trendy hat

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

... and not even Lol himself does that

― Dadrock Holmes (Dada), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

CD INDUSTRY UNMASKED!!

"We were constantly told you would one day be able to wear the sleeves as a v.trendy hat, but eventually we realised it would never be," said chastened consumer body CD4AHAT earlier today. "We feel a bit silly, it's true, but in the end the laugh is on you for reporting this story."

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

he's called lol for a reason you know

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

BACH EXPOSED!

"I was just taking der piss. Sides 3 and 4 of The Well-Tempered Klavier are just Sides 1 and 2 backwards."

― Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 20:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

KRAUTROCK EXPOSED!

"I was just taking the piss. Tracks 3 & 4 are just sped up and slowed down versions of Tracks 1 & 2."

― The JaXoN 5 (JasonD), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 20:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

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