stravinsky's love for james brown

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in john miller chernoff's book on african drummin, i seem to remember he cites stravinsky as havin said that "james brown is the Most important composer* of the late 20th century"

*he may not have said "composer" — and really i shd have looked this up, as i have the JMC book, but i wanted to put it out to ILM b4 i forgot

so did strav say this? and if so when? (and what, exactly)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

Seems a bit unlikely

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

well yes, so has anyone else partp from me encountered this "fact"

(i think i recall that JMC heard stravinsky say it when interviewed on the radio)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

... let's count our blessings, imagined if he'd said Frank Zappa, you'd never have heard the end of it from Ben Watson and all those Zappabores

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

Hang on to your chakras, friends of the paranormal, a random goodle throws up the fact that they share the same birthday (June 17) - worra co-inkydink!

1239 Edward I king of England (1272-1307)
1703 John Wesley cofounded Methodist movement/author
1742 William Hooper signed Decl of Ind
1811 Jon Sigurdsson Iceland, leader/collects Icelandic legends
1818 Charles Gounod Paris, France, opera composer (Faust)
1832 Sir William Crookes chemist/physicist; discovered thallium
1858 Eben Sumner Draper former MA Gov
1867 John Robert Gregg Ireland, inventor (shorthand)
1870 George Cormack created "Wheaties" cereal
1871 James Weldon Johnson lawyer, 1st black admitted to Florida Bar
1882 Igor Stravinsky Oranienbaum, Russia, composer (The Rite of Spring)
19-- Irwin "Sonny" Fox Bkln NY, TV host (Wonderama, $64,000 Challenge)
19-- Jason Patric actor (Lost Boys, Solar Babies)
19-- Michael Monroe rock vocalist (Hanoi Rocks, Ain't it Fun)
19-- Paul Stevens actor (Young & Restless)
1904 Ralph Bellamy Chicago, actor (Air Mail, Dive Bomber, Trading Places)
1910 Red Foley Blue Lick Ky, country singer (Mr Smith Goes to Washington)
1912 Don Gillis Cameron Missouri, composer (Symphony #5«)
1914 John Hersey author (Hiroshima, A Bell for Adano)
1915 Stringbean [David Akeman], Ky, banjoist/comedian (Hee Haw)
1919 Kingman Brewster college president (Yale)
1920 Beryl Reid actress (Joseph Andrews, Psycho Mania, Yellowbeard)
1920 Fran‡ois Jacob France, biologist/bacteriologist (Nobel 1965)
1922 Jerry Fielding Pitts Pa, orch leader (Lively Ones)
1923 Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch AAFC, NFL halfback, end (LA Rams)
1925 Keith Larsen Salt Lake City Utah, actor (The Hunter, Brave Eagle)
1928 James Brown rocker (Hot Pants)
1929 Tigran Petrosyan USSR, world chess champion (1963-69)
1931 Virginia McKenna London, actress (Born Free, Gathering Storm)
1940 Bobby Bell NFL linebacker (KC Chiefs)
1942 Norman Kuhlice England, rocker (Swinging Blue Jeans-You're No Good)
1945 Eddy Merckx Belguim, cyclist (5 time winner of Tour de France)
1946 Barry Manilow NYC, singer (Mandy)
1948 David Concepcion Venezuela, all star shortstop (Cincinatti Reds)
1948 Phylicia Allen Ayers Rashad Houston Tx, actress (Cosby)
1951 Joe Piscopo Passaic NJ, comedian (SNL, Miller Lite commercials)
1954 Mark Linn-Baker St Louis, actor (Larry Appleton-Perfect Strangers)
1958 Dan McVicar Independence Mo, actor (Clarke-Bold & Beautiful)
1964 Michael Gross West Germany, swimmer (Olympic-2 world records-1984)
1965 Kami Cotler Long Beach Calif, actress (Elizabeth-The Waltons)
1969 Kevin Thornton vocalist (Color Me Badd-I Want to Sex You Up)
1975 Frederick Koehler Queens NY, actor (Chip-Kate & Allie)
1977 Jason Miller Silver Springs Md, actor (New Mickey Mouse Club)

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

I like the way that the list starts with the King of England and ends with a member of the Mickey Mouse club. This probably says a lot about the nature of celebrity in the 20th century blah blah....

― Robin Goad (rgoad), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:51 (8 years ago) Permalink

Why was no-one famous born on this date between 1239 and 1703? Was it abolished?

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

Obviously, if you believe in the cyclic nature of history, then the next King of England will be a Mickey Mouse Club member. Well he has got the ears already I guess.

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

judicious choice of boldage.

mark, why were you reading a jesus and mary chain biography?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

(dadaismus xpost)

On pain of the ducking stool.

I thought the quote about Igor/JB might have been one of Miles' hallucinations, but his thing was more Stockhausen and JB (if the drums on On The Corner hadn't been so crappily, jazzily recorded there might have been grounds for some Igor input there).

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:55 (8 years ago) Permalink

Next thing you know there'll be some rumour about Igor jamming with Jimi and Miles or having played (uncredited) on "There's A Riot Goin' On"

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

what is release date of on the corner tho? IS died in 1971...

the kings of england are the mickey mouse club of the middle ages!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

i share a birthday with PRINCE, AL JOLSON and TRACER HAND!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 13:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

will you form a quartet?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

Tracer Hand is the most important camp poser of the 21st century

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

maybe that's what Strav said about JB too

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

haha another igor fact!! he was an accomplished pianist — kinda obvious given the nature of his music — and often performed the piano part of his own works

until the fateful day when — actually on the concert platform — he caught sight of his own playing hands mirrored in the highly polished piano-lid, totally blew apart his own concentration, fucked up the notes into a horrible digital spaghetti and NEVER PERFORMED IN PUBLIC AGAIN

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

That Rachmaninov had massive hands tho - and you know what they say about men with massive hands? Great big pianists.

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:06 (8 years ago) Permalink

Rachmaninov auditioned to be recorded by Edison: Edison turned him away w. the words "you're a pounder, sir, nothing but a pounder"

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:07 (8 years ago) Permalink

Edison - obviously the world's first A&R man

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

first record-label boss deaf in one ear shockah!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

Mind you, Rachmaninov couldn't half give it some welly

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

Wasn't Stravinsky's emphasis on rhythm over melodicism what made all those people riot at "Rite of Spring" or something? He also might have been the one who said that the biggest change in the 20th century would be the increase in importance/ primacy of rhythm. So the James Brown thing makes sense to me. He must have been pretty old when he said it, though. When did he die?

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 14:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

he died in 1971, but he was active till that same year

story of RIOT at rite of spring = big old promo myth in my opinion (a few ppl shouted) (it wz debuted in a theatre where ppl always shouted)

also (slightly contradictin myself): strav later said that it wz nijinsky's lewd dancing which caused the shouting

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

rite of spring = full of melodies!!

boulez wrote a long and subtle (= haha not entirely comprehensible) essay on its harmonic structure also

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:34 (8 years ago) Permalink

I have got a record of Stravinsky playing piano while another bloke plays the violin. It is nice.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

How does Warren Zevon fit into this?

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

On The Corner came out in '72 but was kind of pieced together Macero-style from sundry '70-71 sessions.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

... let's count our blessings, imagined if he'd said Frank Zappa, you'd never have heard the end of it from Ben Watson and all those Zappabores

'm counting along with you there, Dada...

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Friday, 18 March 2005 14:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

And Richard Davis was Strav's favorite bass player.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 15:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Did you take any classes with him, Jordan?

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 18 March 2005 15:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Given how many sick bass lines there are in his writing, Stravinsky makes perfect sense for a band that loves to vamp as much as we do. S’no wonder he recognized James Brown as a kindred soul."

From: http://burntsugarindex.com/Home/Tate_v_Tate.html

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 18 March 2005 15:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

That sentence would read better if it ended with 'brother'.

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 18 March 2005 15:22 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yeah Ken, a bunch. I called him at 7 am and sung scales for a semester!

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 15:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

Never heard that & I'm skeptical. One minor connection I do know, however: I once took a glance at Craig Heller's book "From Metal to Mozart: The Rock & Roll Guide to Classical Music". He had a quick comparison-guide in the appendix, with a full page of "If you like rock performer X, you might like classical composer Y" -type recommendations. And he compared "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" to The Rite of Spring/Le Sacre du Printemps. So, there's that. As for Igor praising JB, I have my personal doubts, but who knows? Anything's possible.

― Myonga Von Bartok (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

ELP did The Firebird, or used The Firebird. To great effect.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

rite of spring = full of melodies!!

haha I'm totally aware of this yo (I was a music major for a minute) but classical music, especially in the 20th century, began to rely on rhythmic propulsion to a much greater degree, like think about how Carmina Burana is like this rhythmically intense piece, it gets a lot of its dramatic tension from rhythm rather than melody. The trend in classical music for a while has been increasing importance of rhythm over melody.

― Ashandeej, Friday, 18 March 2005 16:29 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't see much in common between "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" and Sacre du Printemps.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

boulez wrote a long and subtle (= haha not entirely comprehensible) essay on bag's harmonic structure also

ok so far only greg tate backs me up (but he has prob read john miller chernoff)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't know why I mention it but didn't Alice Coltrane do a version of "Firebird", I think she also claimed to be in some sort of communciation with Igor's spirit from beyond the grave... or summat. Silly bint.

― Dadrock Holmes (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:55 (8 years ago) Permalink

why's that silly? it would HAVE to be from beyond the grave as he's dead!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

Well she was going a bit doolally at the time, judging by some of her sleevenotes

― Ther Return of the Son of Dadrockismus (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 17:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

From this site: http://www.laphil.org/resources/piece_detail.cfm?id=466

THE RITE OF SPRING

Igor Stravinsky

What was it about Le sacre du printemps - The Rite of Spring - that aroused such passions? In no particular order and not necessarily inclusively, it was the score's insistence on the primacy of rhythm: a radical change from the Romantic era's insistence on the primacy of melody (not that, to our ears, Stravinsky's score lacks melody).

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 17:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

die the hecklers yell "fie! on your insistence on the primacy of rhythm!"

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 18 March 2005 17:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

Was the audience full of Norwegians that night?

― Dadrock Holmes (Dada), Friday, 18 March 2005 17:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I find it entirely believeable that what Stravinsky would praise about James Brown would be the rhythmic emphasis of his music. I doubt it was his compositions, which were great but...you know, not particularly harmonically "advanced" to my knowledge.

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 17:22 (8 years ago) Permalink

OK!

Here is Chernoff's footnote in full: “Hal Neely, former president of King Records, the most important label in Afro-American music for more than 20 years, told me that Stravinsky, in response to an interviewer’s question concerning his favourite composers, once replied ‘The three Bs.’ ‘The three Bs,’ Stravinsky is said to have explained, are Bach, Beehoven and Brown—James Brown. According to Neely, Stravinsky went on to say that James Brown should be considered one of the greatest composers of all time, that he was writing truly American music and portraying the American heritage" (p.199, African Rhythm and African Sensibility, John Miller Chernoff, University of Chicago Press, 1979)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

Compositions include rhythm! ESPECIALLY for JB, where everything was a percussion instrument!

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

That's interesting, given IS' hatred for jazz and improv. Did he prefer soul JB to funk JB?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:22 (8 years ago) Permalink

hatred for jazz? he worked with benny goodman sundar!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

Compositions include rhythm! ESPECIALLY for JB, where everything was a percussion instrument!
Yeah this is correct.

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 18:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

It's an interesting quote - I wish there was more to back it up than a third-hand reminiscence dating 8 years after IS's death though.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

hatred for jazz? he worked with benny goodman sundar!!

Really? I had no idea. Huh, I just remember reading some time that he said jazz is like "masturbation that doesn't go anywhere". Maybe he changed his mind at some point. I'll look it up.

That description of JB is significant because a common "music history class" comment about Le Sacre du Printemps is that he turned the whole orchestra into a percussion instrument.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

the problem is i have NEVER come across any other ref to this interview (except maybe for greg tate's cited upthread, and i'm sure greg knows the chernoff book, so that may not be an independent citation)

king records = small but successful American indie label, specialising in R&B (the 50s kind) = its president is not someone i wd AUTOMATICALLY regard as an unimpeachable source, truth-wise (these guys didn’t get where they got by failing to tell youngsters what they wanted to hear!!)

on the other hand, it's so PRECISE

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:31 (8 years ago) Permalink

Maybe you're thinking of Adorno, Sundar..

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

"ebony concerto" is stravinsky's "work for chamber jazz"

he may not have been that keen on improvisation, this is a common fault with composers!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

There is some quote about a century (less?) old - and I'm getting this second-hand so someone may have to help me with this - a theory that (very roughly paraphrased) the primary change in 20th century music is an intensification of the primacy of rhythm over melody, or some such thing.

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 18:34 (8 years ago) Permalink

it's a bit of a cheeky quote if it's a century old!!

"the primary change in 21st century music is an intensification of the primacy of grime over dadrock" — mark s, early 2005

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:36 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, a quick search through Griffiths' book and the web shows that IS was way into jazz. I swear I've seen that quote attributed to Stravinsky a couple times though.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:39 (8 years ago) Permalink

Well, if its a century old, it was a prediction. It sounds like something Stravinsky would have said, perhaps, judging by the quote I mentioned upthread - he was breaking with the romantic tradition of melody over rhythm.

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 18:40 (8 years ago) Permalink

Stravinsky rules.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:40 (8 years ago) Permalink

sundar, are you sure it isn't cage? he wz VERY anti improvisation

(stockhausen also)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 18:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

(I did a google image search for "Cage Mortal Kombat" and at first I actually started to write "Cage Mortal Kompakt")

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 18:47 (8 years ago) Permalink

it's true that stravinsky consciously returned to a "classical" rhythmic sensibility, of strict time as opposed to romanticism's extreme play-it-as-you-feel-it rubatos: he liked music to be "dry", as he called it

i've seen it argued (richard taruskin?) (sorry, it wz a long time ago) that IS's approach was a typically devious way of moving into the same area as schoenberg, though: of musics based on TEXTURE and SONORITY rather than melody OR rhythmie by making a big noise about how neo-classical it all was, and delivering this pellmell clockwork of composition (i'm talking abt stuff after the 1920s, "rite" was a bit of an anomaly in his ouevre), he was able to SLIP IN all kinds of effects and play with gritty texture and noise, while the audiences sat tight and thought of haydn

IS himself is not a tale-teller i wd trust, in respect of his own work: he often said contradictory things, as a result of impatience or sly manipulative whatever

i heart him too

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

romanticism's extreme play-it-as-you-feel-it rubatos:

This is why I can't get into 90% of classical music.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 18:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

haha what do you mean by "classical" there jordan?

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

Well, he was of course wrong, as the answer is Paul McCartney. But how could Stravinsky realise, when he, himself, was possibly the most overrated composer of the 20th century.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

Hahahahah wow.

― deej., Friday, 18 March 2005 19:06 (8 years ago) Permalink

mccartney doesn't begin with B

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

ballz mccartney

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

geir you should read the john miller chernoff book!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

Heh, yeah well I'm not all that schooled Mark (well, actually I AM schooled, but I've forgotten everything from my college music theory/history 101 class), but even non-Romantic music with a stricter sense of meter is too, um, temporally flexible for my tastes (oh, I see, no one has to be able to keep time because you have a CONDUCTOR).

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

That reminds of a story I heard from a guy I know who is a substitute bass player on Broadway shows. One show, the first time he did it, he saw the baton come down so he hit his note and, much to his horror, the only thing you could hear in that auditorium was that bass note, the rest of the band arriving shortly afterwards. During the intermission the rest of the band told him something like "you have to lag behind the conductor" and that everybody made the same mistake their first show.

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

... let's count our blessings, imagined if he'd said Frank Zappa, you'd never have heard the end of it from Ben Watson and all those Zappabores

Ram it up you poop chute.

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:39 (8 years ago) Permalink

Was the typo intentional?

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

sure.

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:51 (8 years ago) Permalink

geir you should read the john miller chernoff book!!

I am indeed familiar with John Miller Chernoff book. He doesn't write about any kind of music that interests me much though.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

sigh

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 18 March 2005 19:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

he may not have been that keen on improvisation, this is a common fault with composers!

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 19 March 2005 00:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

No, I have done research re Cage and improv... One thing is that some of his open pieces, particuarly the number pieces for example, more or less are structured improvisations but for the name.

Re Stockhausen: really?! He's done even more structured improv stuff since the 60s.

I think I read the quote in an Ottawa Citizen article. The reviewer may have misattributed it or exaggerated. Probably the other guy who'd mentioned it read the same article. I can't find any record of it at all on the web.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 19 March 2005 03:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

Mark, I heard or read the Stravinsky "Bach, Beethoven, and Brown" quote well before reading Chernoff's book, but I don't remember where. It was also in James Brown's first autobiography, but again, that's not a completely trustworthy source, and Brown might have gotten it from Neely. But if Neely were going to make up a quote, why would he pick Stravinsky? And I have no reason to think that Stravinsky wouldn't prefer Brown to Brahms.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 19 March 2005 05:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

I doubt it was his compositions, which were great but... you know, not particularly harmonically "advanced" to my knowledge.

Depends what you mean by "harmonically." Brown's funk songs didn't have modulations from key to key, in fact didn't have much in the way of chord progressions, but the chords themselves were sophisticated, using ninths and elevenths and other complexities. This might have been due to his arrangers, e.g., Pee Wee Ellis, but they weren't going to do anything Brown didn't approve.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 19 March 2005 05:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

sundar - his number pieces are from the 80s aren't they? cage sort of mellowed his stance by that time also re: harmony after hearing tenney's 'critical band' (have you heard that, btw?).

but before the 80s cage (and stockhausen) both did present those half-compositions as alternatives to improvisation so they could have some control.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 19 March 2005 11:06 (8 years ago) Permalink

He was doing number compositions even into the 90s. I know he did make strong anti-improvisation statements. I just think it's ironic that his work actually helped pave the way for the incorporation of improvisational elements into modern composition, which he himself more or less ended up doing.

I wonder if you mean "free improvisation" when you say "improvisation". Something like KS' Stimmung certainly does have improvisational elements (with control from the composer) but it's not free improv.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

I wz thinking of jazz derived improvisation. As far as incorporation of improvisation into classical surely earle brown and cardew had just as much (if not more) to do with it. I suspect that stockhausen was following from cage's example (and maybe cardew as they worked together)...his own version of chance procedures. I didn't know there was an improvisational element to 'stimmung', either, even if it might sound like it.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

Right, but could Brown and Cardew have done what they did without Cage? That's all I'm saying.

Re KS: From Griffiths' Modern Music and After: "...the collections Aus den Sieben Tagen (1968) and Fur kommende Zeiten (1968-70), both intended for the composer's live electronic group, consisted of prose poems,couched in oracular language and suggesting meditative exercises in improvisation, or, to use Stockhausen's preferred term, 'intuitive music.'"

This site has a pretty thorough discussion of Stimmung:

The Score consists of four elements, a ‘formal plan’, six pages of syllabic models, six pages of magic names, and a page of poetry. The ‘formal plan’ maps out 51 sections of unfixed duration that specify which harmonic of the low B flat is to be sung ...

It also indicates which voice is to lead each section and which sections involve the use of magic names. In each section there one pitch marked with a thick line, which indicates to a particular singer the introduction of a model. There are no indications to which models should be used for any particular section, as these are freely chosen by the singers from their model sheets...

When the identity of the new model has been established the leader passes the incantation to another singer and when he is satisfied that it is fully established he signals to another singer to continue with a new model. ...

his occurs after the identity of the new model has been reached. In 29 of the 51 sections magic names are pronounced and each singer has 11 names that he can introduce to the music. In the sections marked ‘N’ at least one name must be introduced by one voice and up to six names can be added by the other voices. Not all of the names have to be used in a single performance and the choice of names is entirely up to the performers.

A number of elements are left open for performers to fix themselves in performance (not left to chance procedures). I consider this a level of improvisation.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:43 (8 years ago) Permalink

Don't know that Tenney piece, I don't think. Did you know he used to teach at York?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

no I didn't.

yeah there's quite a bit of improvisation in 'stimmung' (it sounds like there is - its a mug's game anyway! - but I just lazily assumed it was composed and only have a CDR of it). I wz just thinking more of earle brown bcz he had a background in jazz but, having said all that, he might not have used 'open' elements as early as he did without cage.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

Well, you were right in that EB was the first (or at least an important pioneer) to really bring in improv elements into modern US classical/compositional music in a really explicit way. I just meant that in doing so, he was drawing on Cage's ideas (and then spinning them in that particular direction b/c of his jazz background). I think we agree on this.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

Funny, The Rite of Spring is one of the few orchestral pieces I do love wholeheartedly. I never realised it was so controversial because it introduced rhythm. I guess that's why I enjoy it more than most, um, "classical".

― Let's keep the afterbirth and throw Ian Riese-Moraine away! (Eastern Mantra), Sunday, 20 March 2005 13:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

Cage is renowned for being suspicious of improvisation but I think more because he is wary of the idea of musicians "expressing themselves". Stockhausen hardly produced any completely notated pieces in the 1960s and, whether he would chose to call it that or not, all of "Aus den Sieben Tagen" is free improvisation.

― Dadrock Holmes (Dada), Sunday, 20 March 2005 15:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Brown's funk songs didn't have modulations from key to key

Heh, except for going up a fourth for the bridge in every single tune? :>

― Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 20 March 2005 15:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

dadrock's mixed up upthread: it was papa coltrane who claimed to have been visited by Igor's spirit, but yes this great tidbit was reported in some of alice's FANTASTIC lp sleevenotes.

(plus anyway her preferred method of communion at the time = "astral globule", not spirit)

― jones (actual), Sunday, 20 March 2005 16:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

7 years pass...

Well, he was of course wrong, as the answer is Paul McCartney. But how could Stravinsky realise, when he, himself, was possibly the most overrated composer of the 20th century.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, March 18, 2005 7:04 PM (7 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Nilmar Honorato da Silva, Friday, 26 October 2012 23:07 (7 months ago) Permalink

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