Taking Sides: Sabbath vs. Hawkwind

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This will seem too silly to some people. In another thread (Taking sides : Zeppelin or Sabbath) someone said comparing Zeppelin to Sabbath doesn't work. I wonder about Sabbath and Hawkwind (I wonder about Zeppelin and Hawkwind too but that's another thread.) I can never knock Sabbath's heaviness but I just don't listen to any of their albums as much as I do Do Re Mi or Hall of the Mountain Grill. Hawkwind has heaviness plus space in way Sabbath doesn't have.

I copied some threads to research. I wonder what anyone else thinks.

Why Is Hawkwind The Greatest Band Ever?
Hawkwind
Hawkwind - S/D
In this thread, we experience HAWKWIND for the first time!
In this thread, we experience HAWKWIND for the first time!

― steve hise, Thursday, 28 October 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I probably like Hawkwind more, but Hawkwind was one of those important life-changing bands for me too a total inroad into Krautrock and glam and all sorts of other weirdness.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 October 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Tough one.
Have you heard the Monoshock song Hawkwind Show?
No live Sabbath recording touches Space Ritual.

― Sean Witzman (trip maker), Thursday, 28 October 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Well probably no live album by anyone touches Space Ritual.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 October 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?

― Loose Translation: Sexy Dancer (sexyDancer), Thursday, 28 October 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't take sides. however, i will pretend they're fighting a war in a region of outer space where it's 1973 forever.

― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Friday, 29 October 2004 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Hawkwind!

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 29 October 2004 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

el sabor, that's a beautiful thought.

― steve hise, Friday, 29 October 2004 02:52 (twenty-one years ago)

BLACK SABBATH WAS A SPACE ROCK BAND

Rocket engines burning fuel so fast
Up into the night sky they blast
Through the universe the engines whine
Could it be the end of man and time
Back on earth the flame of life burns low
Everywhere is misery and woe
Pollution kills the air, the land and sea
Man prepares to meet his destiny
Rocket engines burning fuel so fast
Up into the night sky so vast
Burning metal through the atmosphere
Earth remains in worry, hate and fear
With the hateful battles raging on
rockets flying to the glowing sun
Through the empires of eternal void
Freedom from the final suicide

Freedom fighters sent out to the sun
escape from brainwashed minds and pollution.
Leave the earth to all its sin and hate
find another world where freedom waits.
Past the stars in fields of ancient void
Through the shields of darkness where they find
Love upon a land a world unknown
where the sons of freedom make their home

Leave the earth to Satan and his slaves
leave them to their future in the grave
Make a home where love is there to stay

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Friday, 29 October 2004 03:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Hawkwind, all the way. They are more fun, as well as being heavy and trippy. Hawkwind were also more successful with shaking up their formula. "Quark, Strangeness and Charm" and the other late 70s albums are still good, though sounding different from "Hall of the Mountain Grill" "Doremi fasol latedo" etc. Sabbath's later albums mostly aren't worth listening to. Plus, Hawkwind seem more "4 Real" to me - perhaps because they never gave up, but also it seems they really WERE into space travel, sci-fi, motorcycles etc whereas Sabbath's occultism is an obvious theatrical pose.

― everything, Friday, 29 October 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

jesus this is so hard. i feel about this the way many people seem to about daftpunk vs basement jaxx.

both these bands are so brillant, and have such distinctive sounds.
hawkwind moves better, but my initial inclination is that sabbath has better riffs/songs. both are SO good, though. i dont think i can do this one. im stuck.

― peter smith (plsmith), Friday, 29 October 2004 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Fine bands both of 'em. Hawkwind may have been the more innovative of the two, but I'll take Sabbath, just because they were better at writing actual "songs". (Then again, the only Hawkwind I own is "Space Ritual" and its three predecessors, so maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about!) Still, Sabbath coulda benefitted from a bit of Dik-Mik style electronics on occasion. No way to prove it, but I suspect Hawkwind inspired more of my personal favourite bands than Sabbath did.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 29 October 2004 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

No question about it: Sabbath. The first six albums and the three with Dio are all crushing. Hawkwind, for their part, only had three really great albums (I don't like Hall Of The Mountain Grill).

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 29 October 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a good one. Both are so damn important and so damn good.

I found the one post up above interesting that stated that Hawkwind had more variety. In terms of rhythm, I actually think Butler-Ward swayed and grooved and moved with a uniquely developed deep, deep Anglo doom funk that few bass-drums combos have touched. Whereas, to my ears, most Hawkwind jams re-hash just a couple different speeds and rhythmic forms. Hawkwind developed this very basic but effective sound that once it got going then you could plug just about anybody into the group and keep it going. (Then again, Hawkwind is more about hypnotism through simple repetition.) But, I am not sure this would have worked with Sabbath. If Butler or Ward were removed the whole thing might have fallen apart.

Hell, I DON'T KNOW. They both sounds AMAZING while taking psychedelics.

― Justin Farrar (Justin Farrar), Friday, 29 October 2004 21:32 (twenty-one years ago)

In a month's time, my mind might well change; but speaking at the moment - Sabbath are infinitely more important and interesting. Hawkwind are a dull blues-rock band with over-extended 3-bar jams, Sabbath invented Metal at the same time as they were writing deviant Pop that re-shaped the templates popular music was allowed to adopt.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 29 October 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

When I first heard Hawkwind, I remember thinking and saying, "He sounds kind of like Ozzy!" I'm pretty sure back then I probably thought they were a knock-off band with a singer who sounded like Ozzy, but obviously that's an idiotic thought. But, funny to see them compared here and I wonder if anyone else has ever noticed the similar vocals.

― Butt Dickus (Dick Butkus), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 11:39 (nineteen years ago)

this is no competition. only one of these bands wrote 'into the void'.

― guanoman (mister the guanoman), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 12:49 (nineteen years ago)

Hmm, can't say I hear much of Ozzy in Dave Brock's singing, myself. They did share the occasional tendency toward theatricality, I suppose.

― M. Agony Von Bontee (M. Agony Von Bontee), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 14:32 (nineteen years ago)

Hawkwind's awesomeness is undeniable but Sabbath is like the greatest band ever.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

yeah it's really no slight to hawkwind to say that sabbath takes this one.

― got so much $ can't spend it so fast (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

Sabbath invented a form of music that is still vital to this day. Their stuff isn't dated at all, Master of Reality and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath still sound like they could have been recorded yesterday. Sabbath in a cakewalk.

― Bill Magill (Bill Magill), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 20:14 (nineteen years ago)

There's really no challenging Sabbath's first two albums,
but after that, Ozzy kind of lost his voice and they were
just spinning their wheels. Hawkwind grew into a more
polished sound while still keeping up the song quality.
Hawkind.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 21:44 (nineteen years ago)

If only for those two albums Sabbath is still the better band.

― Ben H (Ben H), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

id hardly call master of reality "spinning in their wheels"

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

Hawkwind. Sabs only win on purity of execution, but in a straight 69-79 competition Hawkwind put out more kick-arse rekkids.

― Pier Paolo Semolina (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

xpost,
Sure it has
"Sweet Leaf" and "Into The Void," but what happened to
the production, Ozzy's voice is now nasal, even the
sucks, and what happened to Satan, Ironman, and the
fairies in boots? I liked those guys, but they got
replaced with "it's people like you who crucified
christ" and other "deep" messages.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:01 (nineteen years ago)

"even the COVER sucks"

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:01 (nineteen years ago)

"Your world was made for you by someone above
But you choose evil ways instead of love"

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:02 (nineteen years ago)

i can't take sides. however, i will pretend they're fighting a war in a region of outer space where it's 1973 forever.

Utterly OTM.

Based on the live recordings I've heard, I'd give Hawkwind a slight edge if only for just sheer consistent overwhelming force. When the Stars Are Right for Sabbath, they're unstoppable.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:05 (nineteen years ago)

who fucking cares 'bout the lyrics. master of reality is a HUGE step towards a modern metal sound (listen again to "children of the grave" there's nothing like on the first two records). metal as "metal" and not just "heavy blues/acid rock".

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

I feel like Hawkwind are only dated in people (who don't listen to them much - which used to include me)'s heads.

― Pier Paolo Semolina (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

i wasn't arguing about Hawkwind!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

I wasn't cuntradicticting you, lbloom. More my own vision of Hwind's Rusty Nuts, I think.

― Pier Paolo Semolina (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:19 (nineteen years ago)

oooooohs

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

Aww fuck it, I love Sabbath but Hawkwind knock them into a cocked hard-hat.

― Robot Conquest (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:40 (nineteen years ago)

Hawkwind.

I mean there were 75 of them at any given time, and only four Sabbaths. The latter dudes would be pummelled.

Oh, you mean the music...

Garsh.. hard to say.. I'd give the nod to Sabbath for the first eight records alone. At least they knew how to edit themselves, and were overall less spotty. Although, Space Ritual is a key key winning point for Hawkwind. If only Sabbath released such a visceral double live album after Vol. 4.

― the dow nut industrial average dead joe mama besser (donut), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

The harder battle:

Hawkwind after the 70s vs. Sabbath after the 70s

― the dow nut industrial average dead joe mama besser (donut), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:44 (nineteen years ago)

i'm off the bus after quarkstrangness&charm. or hawklords. which ever came last. i'm with black sab up to and including born again.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:48 (nineteen years ago)

"into the void" was the song that converted me to sabbath way back. i don't really see much similarity between them and hawkwind, esp. the rhythm sections. whats the point of this thread again?

― =[[ (eman), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

Hawkwind after the 70s vs. Sabbath after the 70s

definitely hawkwind. despite being well past their peak, 'live '79' (released in 1980), 'levitation', 'sonic attack' and 'church of hawkwind' all had some great moments while sabbath wise we had 'mob rules' and 'born again' - ye gads. no contest!

x post

― stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

What was the huge step with Master of Reality? (I mean presumably you're saying huge step beyond Paranoid?)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

whats the point of this thread again?

+2 Dexterity, d00d

― the dow nut industrial average dead joe mama besser (donut), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

If we're gonna drag Ronnie JD in then I might have to re-evaluate again.

"Motorhead" = "Supernaut" innit?

I like sax tho.

― Robot Conquest (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

well maybe not HUGE step, i'm pretty prone to hyperbole these days

but i dunno, it just sounds more modern to me. more self-concious of itself as a new form of heavy rock rather than simply an outgrowth of the hippy era.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, paranoid is probably the biggest step, but master of reality is a solidifying of their sound.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 22:57 (nineteen years ago)

"whats the point of this thread again?"

bong hits. greasy hair. outdoor shed festival mud.

anyway, black sabbath are my fave rock band. hawkwind aren't. but god knows i love hawkwind. i risked my life for hawkwind one nite! They probably make my top 20 fave rock bands list. maybe.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:06 (nineteen years ago)

"Master Of Reality" was a clean break from the "hippy era" ?
Huh?
What about "Sweet Leaf" ??

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

you miscontrued my point. i never said it was a clean break from anything, just that it was more an evolution/solidifying towards a modern metal sound sonically speaking.

my hyperbolic first post screwed me.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

It's all good. Do you like early Blue Oyster Cult? They were
a studio project created specifically in response
to Black Sabbath. Their first two albums are rather nice. Not as
heavy as Sabbath, but they make up for it in frenetic weirdness
and psycho lust.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:17 (nineteen years ago)

"you miscontrued my point. i never said it was a clean break from anything, just that it was more an evolution/solidifying towards a modern metal sound sonically speaking."

so was the first song on their first album!

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

I meant to say, their first three. They fell hard and fast although "Don't Fear The Reaper" is good.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks. I will look
out for this Blue Oyster
thing of which you
speak.

― I Supersize Disaster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

"Do you like early Blue Oyster Cult?"

do fish swim? of course everyone loves boc. except for the people who would have no interest in this thread.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

"They fell hard and fast"

No! listen again.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:21 (nineteen years ago)

I'm kind of in the not-so-hot-on-post-Secret-Treaties-B.O.C.-camp myself.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:26 (nineteen years ago)

whatsamatter, they get too weird for ya?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:31 (nineteen years ago)

No, don't think so. Are those records that weird?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:51 (nineteen years ago)

way weird! where have you been all your life?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

Eh, heard enough of 'em. I even owned Imaginos once.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 23:55 (nineteen years ago)

so you've heard fire of unknown origin? spectres? cultosaurus erectus? mirrors? friggin' new wave disco mathrock pop friggin' metal up the butt. those albums make klaatu sound like the kingston friggin' trio! okay, maybe not, but they are bonkers in a good way. cost you all of four bucks to get them on vinyl. do yourself a favor.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 00:01 (nineteen years ago)

If you listen to Hurry On Sundown (track 1 of 1970 debut), you can hear the Ozzy nasal similarity in the eighth line: "there's hundreds of people like you and me-eee-eee." There's more, but that's the first one that springs to mind.

― Butt Dickus (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 00:08 (nineteen years ago)

I think I had three of those four (Cultosaurus Erectus twice, in fact).

They wrote really good songs when they were known as "The Stalk-Forrest Group."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 00:12 (nineteen years ago)

Funny, in being polite, I seem to come off as *more Hongroian*. I could just've said "Fuck off w/ the 'too weird for me' and klaatu b.s." I think I'm actually slightly older than you? So maybe you could cut the condescension.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 00:31 (nineteen years ago)

It's all good. On the one hand, you've got a couple douchebags. On those douchebag's hands' one hand, they've got a couple douchebags. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think. That's what peoples do.

― Butt Dickus (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 00:34 (nineteen years ago)

Urban Guerilla (of Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do) sounds like The Stooges + Teenage Head.

― Butt Dickus (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 01:06 (nineteen years ago)

Just saw BOC a couple weeks ago at a Portugese festival in MA. Happy to hear them kick out "Godzilla", "Red and the Black", "Burning For You", they even pulled out "Veteran of the Psychic Wars"... unfortunately no "Flaming Telepaths".

Even the cheeseball production on those early 80s records can't kill the songwriting chops. I can't get into the late 70s stuff, though. Too much bar boogie for my blood.

Oh, and Sabbath. I mean, Hawkwind's cool and all, but Sabbath and Stooges are the unassailable Twin Towers of rock for me.

― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 01:08 (nineteen years ago)

Is that because you're just a romantic or because it was what you decided on back in high school?

― Butt Dickus (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

It was right after I saw Little Miss Sunshine.

― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 01:55 (nineteen years ago)

I hear that's a good movie.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 02:00 (nineteen years ago)

NED RAGGETT IN SUNDANCE SHILL SHOCKAH

― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 02:06 (nineteen years ago)

I heard it from someone.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

Sabbath.
I don't want to talk about it. It'll just make me feel bad.

I hate to see Tim get so worked up.

― the eunuchs, Cassim and Mustafa, who guarded Abdur Ali's harem (orion), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 02:13 (nineteen years ago)

I am wearing a BOC 2002 commemorative T-Shirt right now in fact! From the show where they taped the Long Day's Night DVD. Actually, this is like the first summer in five years that I *haven't* seen BOC! but this time around they were playing the same night as the Mutantes reunion and, well, the Mutantes won out. THIS time. Mutantes were amazing though. but I still feel like there is a void. might try to high-tail it on down to DuQuoin to catch their Illinois State Fair appearance, who knows.. Speaking of the later stuff, last year they did "Shooting Shark" from the Revolution by Night album .... and it ruled!

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 03:11 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, they did "Shooting Shark" when I saw them, too.

TS: BOC vs. Hawkwind

― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 03:15 (nineteen years ago)

haha ... they actually shared the same LISTSRV mailing list for a while ... I was on it, the BOC/Hawkwind list. Super crazy, both bands camps more or less kept to theirselves. I can't remember why it was set up that way...

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 03:27 (nineteen years ago)

"Funny, in being polite, I seem to come off as *more Hongroian*. I could just've said "Fuck off w/ the 'too weird for me' and klaatu b.s." I think I'm actually slightly older than you? So maybe you could cut the condescension."

hahaha, wow, you must be ancient! and sorry, i was just having some fun. you know i love klaatu. i really dig the kingston trio as well.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:05 (nineteen years ago)

It was right after I saw Little Miss Sunshine.

So, they're the unassailable Twin Towers of rock for you since this year, which is 6 years after the actual Twin Towers went down. I am not convinced by such rhetoric.

― Butt Dickus (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

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