At what point did Jimmy Page realize his band was now on a downward arc?

i admit i partially brought up 'licks' just to provoke this whole last forty posts or so

massive hooks

By that logic, Christian bands are all Satanic bands, which means U2 are satanists.

― The Roger Waters Experience (Turrican)

https://deforestlondon.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/230135.jpg

MacPhisto!!!!

" a riff is a lead line in the lower register that repeats/defines the song"

This basically eliminates the entire career of Jeff Beck from The Yardbirds to today ffs.

pfft Jeff Beck doesn't riff, what kinda car did he drive in his prime?! not the type of car a RIFF PLAYER drove, that's for sure!

http://i.usatoday.net/life/_photos/2011/02/22/becksidex-large.jpg

Hey man, he works on cars like he works on his guitars.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51s5GU5ia7L.jpg

I have fond memories of that album.

i love that cover so much

i'd always heard that in through the out door was mostly just plant and jones as they were the only one's who would show up at the studio. on the rare occasion that bonham and page would show up they were usually under the influence. that would explain the preponderance of synths on the record.

Back to Zep. Somehow, because I can't listen to everything obviously, I'd never heard the extended All My Love with a proper ending but it's great and Page is in full flow. Don't understand why they faded it out on the album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4M9nVrijA

...once I learned it was about Karac it had a much bigger impact on me.

― Neanderthal, Monday, April 3, 2017 4:29 PM (five hours ago)

Also, this. Plant is pouring his heart out.

Howbout we just say that the Devil has all the best riffs, and Jesus has the licks

is this riff discussion for real? if you think the tinny, faux-sitar line that is playing in unison with mick's vocal melody on "paint it black" is the same thing as "sweet leaf" you are fucking crazy.

define a riff however you please but christ, distinctions must be made.

and yeah, the stones were not a riff band. like, the beatles had riffs! "day tripper" and "i feel fine" and "hey bulldog" and "dig a pony" and "everybody's got something to hide..." etc. but they weren't a riff band and neither were the stones. keith has many wonderful parts that are essential to the architecture of the song, but it's rarely comparable to something like "whole lotta love" and if you say you can't hear the difference then you're being willfully obtuse.

on we go.....

Controversial on topic opinion to derail off topic thread back on topic:

I think the Zep began to crest their wave when they started titling albums with actual words.

Q: Which band's guitarist is known as "The Human Riff"?

Q: Which band's guitarist is known as "The Human Riff"?

If it's not Malcolm Young, it should be.

The Jets?

I guess the quintessential riffs to me is You Really Got Me by the Kinks or Smoke on the Water

Where the duh dun duh duh duh da dun at the beginning of Brown Sugar is more of a tasty lick imho

define a riff however you please but christ, distinctions must be made.

― budo jeru, Tuesday, April 4, 2017 3:48 AM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Y'see, there is an actual definition of what a riff is and Sund4r posted it above.

There is a riff in 'Brown Sugar', but the intro isn't it.

The obvious answer: when he heard VAN HALEN and VAN HALEN II. Cuz "Eruption" and "Spanish Fly" showed Jimmy that there was a new hombre in town with sicker tone and massiver riffs, who had a singer who was even BLONDER and with more chest HAIR, and the Zep was just a HERITAGE TURKEY.

now does Van Halen play RIFFS, it's important you fully disclose here.

The obvious answer: when he heard VAN HALEN and VAN HALEN II. Cuz "Eruption" and "Spanish Fly" showed Jimmy that there was a new hombre in town with sicker tone and massiver riffs

eh i mean if you have evidence he's talked about this i'll defer but my impression has always been that they were viewing this time period from a British point of view and that they were more concerned with punk/new wave consigning them to the dinosaur bin

also like I dunno Page was more an artist than just oh wow Led Zeppelin is the heaviest in the world, they experimented with so many different styles, like why would he feel that way about Eddie Van Halen when like there were already bands prior to that that could easily outshred Led Zeppelin and were more mettalic...like Blackmore can shred circles around Page...I feel like Led Zep felt they were above heavy metal artistically

yeah I mean even Houses of the Holy was probably one of their least heavy albums, it's not like Zep heard Van Halen I after Zep I-II came out

CITE!

Cooper, Alice, and David Lee Roth. "An All-American Band: Or, How Van Halen (Double-hand) Tapped into American Mythology and Iconography for Success."

Danaher, Bill. "The Making of a Cultural Icon: The Electric Guitar." Music and Arts in Action 4.2 (2014): 74-93.

Goertzel, Ben. "The Rock Guitar Solo: From Expression to Simulation." Popular Music & Society 15.1 (1991): 91-101.

Slaven, James E., and Jody L. Krout. "Musicological analysis of guitar solos from the roots of rock through modern heavy metal." Metal Music Studies 2.2 (2016): 245-251.

Richards, Keith. "Dr. Shakyhands or: How I Learned to Stop Noodling and Love the Riff." Journal of Comparative Metaphysics (Yale, 1971): 245-246.

https://media.tenor.co/images/a47c621cd8751316e52988b712ccd20c/tenor.gif

This photo where the band seem to know the end is nigh:

https://goo.gl/images/dTE8VX

"We think we're new wave...kinda?"

sort of agree with post about worries that punk was turning zeppelin into dinosaurs. i think their turn (after "houses") from more or less guitar-driven music into "sophisticated" music was more or less of a necessary diversion (let's experiment, let's talk about our feelings) that kind of failed, or was at least deemed a path not worth pursuing further.

page:

"We both felt [Page and Bonham] that In Through the Out Door was a little soft. I was not really very keen on "All My Love". I was a little worried about the chorus. I could just imagine people doing the wave and all of that. And I thought, 'That is not us. That is not us.' In its place it was fine, but I would not have wanted to pursue that direction in the future."

a different direction was pursued, of course, and i think that the recordings from "coda" show that page, if nobody else, seriously thought that led zeppelin had relevance in the punk era, and could maybe even beat them at their own game (forget which song specifically was kind of like a faux-punk "fuck you, we invented this" kind of thing)

Wearing and Tearing

didn't Lester Bangs say "Communication Breakdown" invented punk or something similar

(forget which song specifically was kind of like a faux-punk "fuck you, we invented this" kind of thing)

"Wearing and Tearing," I believe. Just listened to it yesterday. It's a decent enough song, and would've sounded out of place on ITTOD, but it's no "Communication Breakdown" (or, for that matter, "Complete Control").

ha xp

xpost he also said "“All humans are the same sex, except albinos.”

Chuck E pointed out "Communication Breakdown" and "God Save The Queen" had similar riffs, except the Pistols had to slow it down.

"How Led Zeppelin’s “Communication Breakdown” sparked The Ramones’ American Punk Rock revolution"

https://dontforgetthesongs365.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/how-led-zeppelins-communication-breakdown-sparked-the-ramones-american-punk-rock-revolution/

Mickey Leigh of The Rattlers was the one who not only introduced Johnny to Led Zeppelin as he explained in his book, I Slept with Joey Ramone: A Family Memoir, when he recalled this famous exchange with the future guitarist of The Ramones when he wrote, “One day, I started playing Led Zeppelin’s “Communication Breakdown,” and John was really impressed.
“Wow, you know about down strokes, huh?” John said.
“Whaddaya mean, down strokes?” I answered.
“Ya known, how you’re picking everything downward” John said, motioning.
“I’m just trying to play how it sounds.” I explained.
“Yeah, well that’s really important,” John told me. “Most people don’t realize that. That’s how rock & roll should be played. All of it! Everything should be a down stroke.” In retrospect, I believe Johnny had begun formulating the concept for the Ramones sound even back then.”

i just looked at van halen i had been out for about half a year before they started the sessions for in through the out door, which is certainly a weird reaction album to make if you were indeed scared of the new hotshots on the block, plus i'd imagine page was so smacked out anyway

by time van halen ii comes out in 79 the band barely exists at that point, and bonham is dead in 80

Wasn't In Through the Out Door recorded at ABBA's studio? Rock'n'fuckin' roll!

Although, to be fair, John Bonham had begun to resemble Benny Andersson by 1980.

also here is rat scabies from the damned:

"I really didn’t like any of the songs that were long, but they had really cool short-riff rock songs that motored with a pretty good energy. In 1975, we might even admit that "Communication Breakdown" had punk energy."

that said, had mr. scabies read the essay, linked upthread, by margaret moos pick (co-founder of "prairie home companion" and author of zero books on music) that so perceptively articulates that "a riff is a short melody—just a few notes—repeated over and over in a rhythmic manner"? probably not.

i'm beginning to think that this whole "rock N roll" thing was more about using your own ears, forming your own opinions, and creating what feels right in the moment, rather than citing sources, though i could be wrong.

and yeah, there's no way jimmy page was listening to van halen and, sweat forming on his forehead, being like "oh wow i really need to get my act together, step up my game what"

One great thing about a mullet is that less sweat forms on your forehead

I'm picturing Jimmy Page turning up to a Van Halen show and begging them to let him onstage, like Eddie did to Nirvana

and like Bonham did to Deep Purple, except Bonham went onstage anyway!

http://https%3A//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0d/8d/a8/0d8da865fa1f3fc69886ee3aa1601dd6.jpg

and like Bonham did to Deep Purple, except Bonham went onstage anyway!

haha waht I haven't heard this story

no idea if that worked, here's page and eddie being buds:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0d/8d/a8/0d8da865fa1f3fc69886ee3aa1601dd6.jpg

lol at "she's doesn't get rock and roll, she's written ZERO books, man"

x-post to Shakey:

Bonham turned up drunk to a Deep Purple concert during the Tommy Bolin years, and ran onstage, grabbed a free mic, informed the audience that there was a new Zeppelin album coming out which was "fuckin' great" and then said something like "and Tommy Bolin can't play for shit!"