I listened to the album for the first time in a long while the other day, and I realized how utterly fantastic it was all over again. Scrape away all the dull as ditchwater clot accrued to it over the years thanks to so many indifferent IDM releases and it's all the more lovely to appreciate, a glorious one-off from him in that nothing (much) was spiked with the humor or freneticism or any of that from elsewhere.
There was a taking sides thread involving this versus SAW 85-92, but let's just talk about SAW II instead here.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:47 (9 years ago) Permalink
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:47 (9 years ago) Permalink
― mullygrubber (gaz), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:48 (9 years ago) Permalink
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:49 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:49 (9 years ago) Permalink
Mine too!!
― the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:50 (9 years ago) Permalink
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:50 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Lil' Fancy Pants (ex machina), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:52 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:52 (9 years ago) Permalink
― mullygrubber (gaz), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:53 (9 years ago) Permalink
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 01:55 (9 years ago) Permalink
For whatever reason, SAW II has never done much for me. I've always been puzzled by how underwhelming I've found it, considering how much music in this vein I listen to, and how much this record means to people whose taste overlaps with mine. I think SAW II sounds better scuffed up by majic markers and run through the ovalprocess.
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 02:01 (9 years ago) Permalink
― mullygrubber (gaz), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 02:03 (9 years ago) Permalink
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 02:05 (9 years ago) Permalink
― the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 02:05 (9 years ago) Permalink
I've been listening to Black Dog too!
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:02 (9 years ago) Permalink
Beautiful but so ephemeral that it slips my notice most times when I am looking for something like this to listen to.
― hector (hector), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:04 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:05 (9 years ago) Permalink
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:07 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:14 (9 years ago) Permalink
― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:26 (9 years ago) Permalink
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:36 (9 years ago) Permalink
By Aphex, I mean.
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:39 (9 years ago) Permalink
This album is so good I don't think 10 years matters much. Vol. 1 sounds dated, this one doesn't and probably won't.
My selected coincidence is yesterday being puzzled by this Allmusic synopsis -- now you take a look:
Despite James' appearance on the pop charts, his following album Selected Ambient Works, Vol. 2 appeared to be a joke on the ambient-techno community. So minimal as to be barely conscious, the quadruple-album left most of the beats behind, with only tape loops of unsettling ambient noise remaining. The album mostly struck out with critics, but hit number 11 on the British charts and earned James a major-label American contract with Sire soon after.
I'd say joke on the pop chart community, home run with critics, and WTF to tape loops? This ain't Strafe F.R.
― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:52 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 03:59 (9 years ago) Permalink
― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 05:36 (9 years ago) Permalink
i can't overstate how much i love this piece. (as a side note cddb now calls it "rhubarb," which seems a bit odd...are these the unofficial titles people puzzled out from the pics in the liner notes?) it marks the only time i've ever used a repeat function on a cd player. i wanted to listen to it a few times and accidentally left it on for at least an hour or two late at night. it must be tapped into my personal resonant frequency or something.
it seems strange to me that this and nirvana were happening coincidentally, on virtually opposite sides of the world. i experienced them sequentially but they've coincidentally both drifted back into my life- i just added saw II to itunes finally, and it and nevermind keep cropping up on random play.
― rgeary (rgeary), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 05:37 (9 years ago) Permalink
― rgeary (rgeary), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 05:38 (9 years ago) Permalink
― rgeary (rgeary), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 05:42 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Dude (The Yellow Dart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 05:51 (9 years ago) Permalink
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 06:13 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 06:42 (9 years ago) Permalink
I've managed to lose about 4 copies of the thing during the last 10 years, and I've always gone straight back out and replaced it. Much as I love Richard's later stuff, SAW II is a unique thing of wonder.
And where would BBC2 documentary Producers be without it?
― noodle vague (noodle vague), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 08:43 (9 years ago) Permalink
I remember listening to it a lot and being thoroughly terrified by a couple of tracks. I found it as scary as Rosemary's baby.
― Nik (Nik), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 08:45 (9 years ago) Permalink
DummySecond ComingVulvalandProtectionHexD.I. Go PopSnivilisationIll CommunicationGraceAmberParklifeMusic For The Gilted GenerationCrooked Rain Crooked Crooked RainDefinitely MaybeSouthernplayalisticadillacmuzikIndependancyWeezerIllmatic
1994 seems like a very ILM-friendly year.
― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 08:51 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 08:54 (9 years ago) Permalink
― zebedee (zebedee), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 09:00 (9 years ago) Permalink
― zebedee (zebedee), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 09:02 (9 years ago) Permalink
yes.
― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 09:15 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 09:22 (9 years ago) Permalink
― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 09:27 (9 years ago) Permalink
what a fubny questoin. does one need anny rock beynod white ligt white heat and in teh court of the crismon king?
― :|, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:35 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:38 (9 years ago) Permalink
That is the funniest thing I've read in a while. I want to try that some day.
― Jay Kid (Jay K), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:50 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Jay Kid (Jay K), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:51 (9 years ago) Permalink
― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:09 (9 years ago) Permalink
We had a fine thread on recommended ambient records a while back. I'd add me some fine releases from the Improvised Music from Japan label and the Necks' Drive-By.
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:13 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Jay Kid (Jay K), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:26 (9 years ago) Permalink
― matthew james (matthew james), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:35 (9 years ago) Permalink
i admit, it is possible you understand timbre, though i'm still not convinced tbh
― the late great, Thursday, 7 June 2012 07:46 (11 months ago) Permalink
anyway next time just tell me to fuck off w/o the sputtering outrage and the disparaging of my reading comprehension
― the late great, Thursday, 7 June 2012 07:48 (11 months ago) Permalink
Amazing how anti-ambient this discussion became. More solid evidence, I guess, that this album just does not do the job!
― Lil' Kim Philby (Call the Cops), Thursday, 7 June 2012 07:50 (11 months ago) Permalink
\(o_O)/
― crüt, Thursday, 7 June 2012 07:51 (11 months ago) Permalink
8===D ~ ~ ~ \(o_O)/
― the late great, Thursday, 7 June 2012 07:52 (11 months ago) Permalink
They tried to assassinate my character, they tried to assassinate my swag
― crüt, Thursday, 7 June 2012 07:54 (11 months ago) Permalink
how about "spectral nature." let's use that instead of "timbral nature." are we happy now?
― crüt, Thursday, 7 June 2012 08:00 (11 months ago) Permalink
What if crut was standing right next to the mockingbird, but iglu was next to the foghorn?
― Pacific Trash Vortex (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 7 June 2012 08:18 (11 months ago) Permalink
"that mockingbird is quiet, but the foghorn out there is far away"
― I am using your worlds, Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:04 (11 months ago) Permalink
timbreland feat JT nely futodarelease pirate themed "booty shiver"
― iglu ferrignu, Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:11 (11 months ago) Permalink
I was just curious about how timbre is converted to digital signal if it cannot be measured or quantified.
― Poliopolice, Thursday, 7 June 2012 13:40 (11 months ago) Permalink
^
― crüt, Thursday, 7 June 2012 14:13 (11 months ago) Permalink
I guess he's saying that it isn't converted because timbre is entirely phenomenological in nature, like color or taste. we kind of just "make that part up" when we experience sound... somehow. i don't really get it, but i'm prepared to admit that i don't know much about the subject.
― Poliopolice, Thursday, 7 June 2012 14:20 (11 months ago) Permalink
timbre is a combination of a bunch of different aspects of sound, we might not systematically quantify it, but we do have ways of describing it and it makes sense to analyze it or make observations about it just like we observe the use of color in paintings. we assign "colors" of noise based on how the sound is distributed on the frequency spectrum.
― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Thursday, 7 June 2012 14:33 (11 months ago) Permalink
I've had this album playing quietly in the background as the skim this thread. I can hear it, but only if I want to hear it.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 June 2012 14:37 (11 months ago) Permalink
Hear a disc-rotted version of SAW II
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, 8 June 2012 14:00 (11 months ago) Permalink
though it quickly devolved into a clusterfuck, i'm glad that somebody took a whack at this album. i say that because i've never quite known what to make of it. it's often lovely and does generate a pleasant sonic atmosphere, suitable to gazing lazily off into space while imagining slow-motion industrial processes. despite that basic appeal, it often reminds me of the new-age meditation records a friend of mine used to own, simple recordings of vibrating bowls or drawn-out synth noodles. like SAW II, they were lovely and rather indistinct, useful in the provision of a certain atmosphere, but usually too elementary to reward active engagement outside their intended, meditative context.
i often wonder about time, place and chemical context in trying to come to grips with aphex twin's ambient music. at the time, this seemed to be a specific culture's chillout soundtrack of choice, the washed-out shadow of the dance music its audience might have been enmeshed in a few hours before putting it on. its appeal in dilated circumstances is undeniable, and i can see why EDM fans would choose this version of tones & drones over, say, sitar noodling, tibetan bowls, new age synths, or w/e. what i can't see is how SAW II is all that much more interesting or worthy of attention than than any other generally pleasant environmental music.
certain tracks do stand out (e.g., "stone in focus"), though given the context, it may miss the point to praise them for it. most do not. it seems to me that SAW II lacks the basic musicality and close focus on timbral and textural detail that makes eno's ambient 1 so rewarding, but i suppose that's subjective. i like it, on the whole, but it's hard for me to justify the idea that it deserves special recognition outside its obvious significance in its moment and influence on others. which in turn brings up the subjectivity of all artistic appreciation, the ridiculousness of any attempt to objectively "justify" any of it. people seem to think a great deal of it, and i suppose that has to be enough.
― spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Friday, 8 June 2012 16:34 (11 months ago) Permalink
eno's ambient 1 is apples and oranges to this in my head. the comparable eno record is "on land" imo
― ciderpress, Friday, 8 June 2012 16:39 (11 months ago) Permalink
^^ otm
― the late great, Friday, 8 June 2012 16:54 (11 months ago) Permalink
It's a fair point to compare this with new age albums, but then why can't we lump Eno, Koner, Labradford, and plenty of others in there too? If you ask me, these distinctions between "new age" and "real" music have to do with marketing and image more than anything else. I heard an album by Zero 7 about 10-12 years ago that I felt could have easily have been a generic album of elevator music made explicitly to be innocuous background sound. But that's not the way it was marketed at all, and thus, not the way it was received.
― Poliopolice, Friday, 8 June 2012 17:19 (11 months ago) Permalink
granted. i picked ambient 1 mostly because i like it a lot. agree that ambient 4 has more in common w/ SAW II - especially in generally sounding like what you might hear with your head underwater.
― spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Friday, 8 June 2012 17:25 (11 months ago) Permalink
Another comparable to SAW2 that occurs to me is some of John Fahey's late-period ambient/droney playing. "Red Cross, Disciple of Christ Today" and "Untitled with Rain" from Red Cross, especially. Maybe some aspects of Womblife.
― Trey Imaginary Songz (WmC), Friday, 8 June 2012 17:28 (11 months ago) Permalink
I'm not that familiar with Eno's ambient work, but from what I can remember about his albums and those with Cluster, Roedelius etc that I've had the opportunity to sample, is that while they do compare to certain moments on SAWII, Aphex's album is so much more variegate in mood. Each track is drastically different in its imagery, making it far more than a new wave chill out record. There are tracks that are genuinely jarring or frightening, others that are plaintive, lonely, sinister, crepuscular, claustrophobic, airy... a real chocolate box of ideas. No two tracks make me think of the same thing, in fact I recall inventing my own titles for each one, based on what it would make me think of - e.g. 'child emperor', 'skywalkers', 'dawn battle', 'dwarf machine', 'grass snake' blahblahblah. Don't think I could do that with any other ambient record I've heard.
― Scary Move 4 (dog latin), Friday, 8 June 2012 17:33 (11 months ago) Permalink
It's a fair point to compare this with new age albums, but then why can't we lump Eno, Koner, Labradford, and plenty of others in there too? If you ask me, these distinctions between "new age" and "real" music have to do with marketing and image more than anything else.
otm. i don't intend to disparage new age or any other form of ambient/environmental music. just pointing out that there's an awful lot of this music out there, much of it is quite successful on its own terms, and that the appreciation of aphex twin's ambient music rarely seems to take much account of this larger context. the same applies to eno et al. i guess i'm wondering what the evaluative criteria for assessing this sort of stuff might be. beyond "i just like it", i mean.
the same questions can be asked of minimalist abstract art, i suppose, with as little hope of resolution. what makes a rothko more intrinsically interesting than any other smear of appealing color? once you strip away the secondary, "extra-textural" considerations (the artist's stated intent, historical/cultural context, ideas of importance and influence), it's hard to say beyond one's personal perception of beauty or specialness.
― spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Friday, 8 June 2012 17:39 (11 months ago) Permalink
...Aphex's album is so much more variegate in mood. Each track is drastically different in its imagery, making it far more than a new wave chill out record. There are tracks that are genuinely jarring or frightening, others that are plaintive, lonely, sinister, crepuscular, claustrophobic, airy... a real chocolate box of ideas. No two tracks make me think of the same thing...
this is an interesting point. it's true that SAW II is much less consistent in tone than the ambient albums that preceded it, less seemingly interested in conjuring and maintaining a smooth sonic environment. tracks like "rhubarb" pick away at my attention rather insistently (and unpleasantly). this quality makes it harder to "fall into" than the ambient albums i like best.
― spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Friday, 8 June 2012 17:47 (11 months ago) Permalink
lol, i mean "[radiator]" or w/e. THE SECOND ONE. IT GOES BONKY BONK.
― spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Friday, 8 June 2012 17:48 (11 months ago) Permalink
I've never really listened to this album as an "ambient" album, as such. It's too varied (which makes it to jarring), too discordant, too ... tactile to confuse with sonic mush. Like, did I see someone upthread deride this album as being formulated with synth pre-sets? Because that's not what I hear. I hear a lot more diversity, at lot more rough around the edges bits, which is one of Eno's key strategies, too. Keep it dark. "On Land" is a good comparison, because that album is weird, dark and diverse, too, though it's more, I dunno, organic sounding than this one, which is a purely (probably) electronic piece, albeit deliciously analog in nature.
I had never knowingly heard "Selbstportrait" until yesterday, but the element that caught my ears as SAWII comparative was not the melodies or prettiness but the pop and crackle of the vinyl in the rip I downloaded.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 8 June 2012 18:09 (11 months ago) Permalink
I think the first two Selbtportraits have kind of a lo-fi sound regardless of what format you get them in. They're definitely a good comparison (as is a lot of Roedelius stuff in general)
― frogbs, Friday, 8 June 2012 18:36 (11 months ago) Permalink
Obviously the occasional beat or two is another element that sets SAWII apart from many of its predecessors.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 8 June 2012 18:43 (11 months ago) Permalink
being boring shite is another element that sets SAWII apart from many of its predecessors
― the late great, Friday, 8 June 2012 18:44 (11 months ago) Permalink
;-)
I'm not that familiar with Eno's ambient work― Scary Move 4 (dog latin), Friday, June 8, 2012 1:33 PM
― shit_ebooks (am0n), Friday, 8 June 2012 19:16 (11 months ago) Permalink
"...it often reminds me of the new-age meditation records a friend of mine used to own, simple recordings of vibrating bowls or drawn-out synth noodles. like SAW II, they were lovely and rather indistinct, useful in the provision of a certain atmosphere, but usually too elementary to reward active engagement outside their intended, meditative context."
Contenderizer, I don't really understand this line of thought... I mean, do you know of a piece called "Music on a Long Thin Wire" by Alvin Lucier? On one level, it's just, well, a recording of the hum made by a huge wire strung across an auditorium. On the other, it's a sublime and enveloping sound environment that's undeniably engaging. Is this music "simple" or "complex"? The set-up and execution is simple, sure, but there is a level of "holy shit" awe that I'd argue is pretty complex. We can have complex responses to simply created music, in other words, and ambient is a genre that I think is very ends-oriented--if the music takes me there, I don't worry a bit about what's behind it. You bring up Rothko later as well, and I think his popularity w/r/t other minimalist color-field painters is indeed hard to explain by formal assessment alone--but I also think it's no accident that he's so beloved and popular. It's the fact that "one's personal perception of beauty and specialness" is shared by so many persons.
― Clarke B., Friday, 8 June 2012 22:17 (11 months ago) Permalink
I often think SAWII an ambient record like Metal Machine Music is an ambient record.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 9 June 2012 09:31 (11 months ago) Permalink
I kinda think of SAWII as an ambient record like I think of Victorialands as an ambient record.
Which is not entirely facetious, as that was the path that I first came to both SAWs, from the ethereal end of 'gaze and the dronier end of drone.
And it strikes me as the same kind of thing - lots of shoegaze, etheregoth, drone, whatever bands have since tried to do what the Cocteau Twins did, and they never really got it right, because they got the drifting prettiness down OK, but they never got the undercurrent of terror that is shot through the Cocteau's ecstatic beauty.
SAWII often strikes me the same way - that it's not just chillout, there's often an undercurrent of sadness, or creepiness, or aggression, or more often good old Celtic hiraeth - sorry, that's me letting the ~personality~ get in the way of the music again - but this is an undercurrent through all of Aphex Twin's music, the way that that element does come through, no matter what style he's working in. It's not that I'm lionising a record *because* it's a Richard D James record, it's because all of Mr D James' records have that vein of hiraeth which I find so beautiful and appealing.
― Coolyplay G (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 9 June 2012 09:54 (11 months ago) Permalink
Well, to explain a bit I don't think I've heard enough ambient in the first place but have a strong idea of the type and types of music (so when it goes blurs into Lucier and devotional buddhist chanting).
However I do think of both albums as very unsettling except there is far more variety in SAWII -- but that's only because MMM is a set of continuous streams of sounds and SAWII has different tracks/melodies.
But what both do share is a strong core sound with undercurrents that undermine it at the sametime -- so I agree that in SAWII that there is an undercurrent of creepiness/agression in a seemingly elegiac core whereas MMM has an undercurrent of serenity in an aggressive and very nasty core set of sounds.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 9 June 2012 10:49 (11 months ago) Permalink
The comparison to MMM is intriguing. One of my favorite Eno observations was his connecting ambient music with the overdrive of metal. Basically, once music goes far enough in the other direction, toward in the red noise and aggression, it sort of transmutes into a similar warm blanket of ambient sound.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 9 June 2012 12:48 (11 months ago) Permalink
This seems very otm to me. I've always thought MMM was a very warm/approachable/listenable record and wondered if it was just me being weird.
― 9 1/2 Gleeks (WmC), Saturday, 9 June 2012 12:51 (11 months ago) Permalink
For me, I guess ambient has never equalled "chillout", so while I see those undertones of aggression/creepiness/etc in SAW2--and they're a big parrt of what I love about the record--they don't somehow make it not ambient for me. I don't look to ambient to relax, I look to it to immerse myself.
― Clarke B., Saturday, 9 June 2012 13:15 (11 months ago) Permalink
Well, all music can be ambient music, then. I'm not averse to that reading.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 9 June 2012 13:20 (11 months ago) Permalink
I don't think those undertones of aggression/creepiness/sadness/hiraeth make SAW2 *not ambient* - I think that they make it good, interesting, evocative, lasting ambient as opposed to churned out by-the-yard stuff.
― Coolyplay G (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 9 June 2012 14:27 (11 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, that's what I said a few posts above. This is no guy pressing random pre-programmed mush pads.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 9 June 2012 15:26 (11 months ago) Permalink
Anybody who grew up playing Metroid will feel absolutely no need to justify SAW II's beauty.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Saturday, 9 June 2012 20:02 (11 months ago) Permalink
http://gamingirresponsibly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Samus.png
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 9 June 2012 21:05 (11 months ago) Permalink
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 9 June 2012 21:06 (11 months ago) Permalink
Why is Richard wearing a bikini again?
― Coolyplay G (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 9 June 2012 21:30 (11 months ago) Permalink
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 9 June 2012 21:36 (11 months ago) Permalink
had planned to do a big is this cunt banned yet? compilation but the obviousness of the referents outweighed the effort of the compilation
― typhus in Corfu (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 10 June 2012 02:12 (11 months ago) Permalink
Weirdly, listening to Loveless makes me think of Super Metroid. SAWII is synonymous with Five Letters From An Eastern Empire in my mind
― Scary Move 4 (dog latin), Sunday, 10 June 2012 02:16 (11 months ago) Permalink
wll u know yr the same old hangman who ratnalises hope
― typhus in Corfu (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 10 June 2012 02:34 (11 months ago) Permalink