Taking Sides - Amnesiac vs. Kid A

I prefer Amnesiac - I don't really enjoy Kid A that much. It does annoy me that they were recorded together as Amnesiac sounds to me so much like a progression from Kid A, or at least a consolidation of the territory it sketched out.

OK Computer is better than both, tho!

Amnesiac sounds like a step forward (except the Dullsville "Knives Out").

KA's the only album of theirs that i've bothered to own, so i have a bit of preference toward it, but Amnesiac does have its moments. i initially really liked the idea of them making 2 shorter albums from the sessions instead of one big overblown one, but in retrospect now, they both seem like somewhat slight albums, like they didn't have quite as much top shelf material as they'd expected to.

and no, i'm not going to harp on Amnesiac as a glorified b-sides collection, because I know it's not, mainly because the 'Pyramid Song' b-sides are the worst shit i've ever heard and make Amnesiac sound really fabulous by co

Then I went back and listened to Kid A a few more times. And I realized that it _wasn't_ a minor consideration that Kid A works better than Amnesiac as a one whole piece. "Motion Picture Soundtrack," for example, is certainly a nice track on it's own -- but only in the context of the peaks and valleys of the album does it feel like a cathartic resolution. As that "mind journey" feeling you get when you listen to an album from cover-to-cover. Considered on a whole, it may be better even then OK Computer.

So, the final verdict: Taken track by track, Amnesiac is the stronger work. Taken as a whole, Kid A totally smacks up on it's antecessor.

On a related note, I finally saw Radiohead on TV the other night, playing "The National Anthem" on Saturday Night Live (it was a rerun). Dang, they're good live. Such energy, such excitement -- Jonny Greenwood was really ripping on his oscilliator, or whatever the hell he was playing, and Phil Selway really is a force to be reckoned with. He was really keeping down a solid, infectious groove, and the drums & bass were tight as hell.

As has been verified all around, Kid A was a rather deliberate attempt to dabble in the sorts of techniques most of us sum up with a reference to Warp. It's turned out that Radiohead are actually quite good at this sort of thing, which we can all be glad about -- and it's turned out, more importantly, that the combination of these inclinations with their more conventional rock impulses has been a good, good thing. But Kid A also demonstrated that Radiohead are actually still quite bad at one particular aspect of the Warp standard, the thing that draws a huge line between good Warp- type records and great ones, and that thing is: dynamics. This is abundantly clear from the first few tracks of Kid A. "Everything in its Right Place" is amazing, tense, a little foreboding, refusing to shift gears and instead just humming ever more ominously -- and then it goes away. And then we're left floating in the air for 4 minutes of "Kid A." Then the emergence of solidity with "National Anthem" -- which I'll come back to in a second -- but after that, good as the songs may be, it's just a murky even plod all the way through "Idioteque." The overall effect is something like trudging through a bog -- a beautiful bog, but a bog nonetheless -- without landmarks. This metaphor explains the post- "Everything..." bits that tend to get mentioned most: the horns at the end of "National Anthem" as the highest, driest land in that bog, a climactic little promontory from which you can look down on the vast stretch ahead of you; "Idioteque," a jittery little distraction purely because of its sequencing toward the far end of the bog; and "Motion Picture Soundtrack," the shimmery cathedral you have to assume was the reason for your journey through all that muck.

Amnesiac, on the other hand. You can call it scattered, or a glorified b-side collection, or what have you, but it's precisely that quality that makes it work for me. I don't think the band would be able to put together a completely non-rock Warpish record that had the dynamics to make it interesting -- I think if they tried, they'd come up with static, 4-minute snippets like "Everything...," laid end to end until they seemed meaningless. The beauty of Amnesiac is not only that it wins on the song front -- even though the songs here really are less plodding, more clever, more memorable -- but that the song selections and the sequencing create dynamics between the songs, so that "I Might be Wrong" suddenly firms up into the clear arpeggios of "Knives Out," which shatters into the fragments of "Morning Bell." This is no bog -- this is like stepping out of the bog into a city and being overwhelmed by the sheer stimulus of it, walking from corner to corner and seeing something new at each one. (Forgive me for just turning the two records into some sort of science-fiction epic, in which our heroes travel across the bog to the cathedral and the crystal city beyond. But these are my gut reactions, really: Kid A = mud, Amnesiac = crystal.)

So ... I think that's my reasoning ...

Sez who? The only thing they do worse is the free jazz thing.

My bet is one day we'll look back at both of them as being as windy and foolish as "Wish You Were Here", let's say.

Fun way to waste time -- interweave the songs of the two albums without changing the running order.

Good comparison, they're also adjacent fantastic albums.

Radiohead is the Alan Parsons project. Mournful sub-Floyd ruminations on technology and dehumanization.

Umm, okay, if you insist. I don't see the similarity myself. The Project's early output was decent, nothing to get excited about. Radiohead is definitely worth getting excited about, but sub-Floyd is correct, they're not to the level of Pink Floyd, one of their many influences. Release two more excellent albums in a row, boys, and then we'll talk. I'm hoping these tags work

It's nice to see not many of these patterns developing here. Still...........

I have a hard time comparing those albums, but I LOOOOOOOOVE that song.

I agree w.DQ abt Radiohead subject topics — modern technology and "dehumanisation" done better by Numan-Foxx, as all know — but not abt Alan Parsons LP covers.

Jack R likes the Tull!! Do a thread, Jack. Ronan to Radiohead = me to Tull, but I am punk-damaged bigtime,and not to be trusted.

in fact as a lyric writer generally, waters is borderline illiterate — i don't think he wrote an insightful line in his life, tho i've never bothered pursuing the solo LPs — but i don't listen to songwords anyway, so that doesn't worry me especially: what i find tiresome about dark side is the way a weakness — its extreme textural monotony — is proclaimed as a strength

As for being Roger Waters being "functionally illiterate," well, nicely inflammatory but obviously not true. I think even a non-believer could see the care and thought put into most of his lyrics. That's _my_ problem with his lesser lyrics, that they're far too obvious and belabored (while I also like the totally preconceived and over-the-top riddles of someone like Peter Gabriel *scratch head*). For myself, most of the lyrics on the Pink Floyd albums _Dark Side Of The Moon_, _Wish You Were Here_, _Animals_ are deeply emotionally and intellectually satisfying.

Yes, the production has something of a uniform sound, but it's _designed_ as one long experience, an album length work -- there's a reprise, for Allah's sake, and quotes from past songs. If you categorically don't like "concept albums," (that's a nebulous phrase), "suites" or long-form works in general, well, that's your own choice. Personally, I think it would do us all well to develop a musical attention span.

So knives out
Catch the mouse
Don't look down
Cut the kids in half

Revisiting these albums and then thinking about moon shaped pool, you can see how they got from songs like knives out to MSP

There’s always a part of me that wishes they’d taken the DNA of “kinetic” and mined that vein for an album or three.

optimistic and i might be wrong are so great.

Kinetic is imho more successful at nailing an experimental electronic song than songs like pulk/pull, like spinning plates.

id like a version of national anthem without the slightly wonky jazz freakout at the end which is cool but doesnt seem totally convincing.

That’s like the best part of the song wtf!

use some of the b-sides in your resequencings u cowards

it would have been extremely funny if "trans atlantic drawl" had made it onto either album, all that clamoring for guitar heroics and you get them....for about a minute, and then--

most days I'd rather hear "fog" or "worrywort" than "knives out" or "I might be wrong"

Cut tooth is better than its a side, knives out.

"cuttooth" genuinely my favorite radiohead song? sure

So knives out
Catch the mouse
Don't look down
Cut the kids in half

They out-Coldplay’d Coldplay with “cuttooth”

KID A

1. Everything in its right place
2. Kid A
3. Treefingers
4. Idioteque
5. Kinetic
6. Pulk/Pull Revolving Doors
7. Worrywort
8. Packt Like Sardines
9. Like Spinning plates
10. Untitled (Genchildren)

KID B

1. The Amazing Sounds of Orgy
2. In Limbo
3. Dollars & Cents
4. Pyramid Song
5. Fast-Track
6. The National Anthem
7. Morning Bell
8. Motion Picture Soundtrack
9. Life in a Glasshouse
10. Extended Life in a Glasshouse Reprise

KID C

1. Hunting Bears
2. I might be wrong
3. Optimistic
4. Knives Out
5. How to Disappear Completely
6. You and Whose Army
7. Trans-atlantic drawl
8. Morning Bell Amnesiac
9. Cuttooth
10. Fog

Divided as KID A ("electronic"), KID B ("jazzy") and KID C (Post-rock)

triple album baby

Sequencing could use a second pass but some parts of it work. That said they don't feel as adventurous or exciting to me when split into similar moods/sounds. Kid B would be the one I'd probably like the best out of these.

I love worrywort. Such an earworm!

Idk about separating them like that though it's cool to do as a way to contrast and compare. Maybe people would have preferred it actually. They could have released one electronic and one rock/jazz one on the same day.

Knives Out always sounded like a poor man's reprise of Karma Police to me.

Chord sequence-wise it's more of a reprise of the opening section of Paranoid Android... I like it though, there's a loose, jagged feel to the playing and it's pretty catchy (I get the chorus stuck in my head every time I see the title of the film Knives Out).

This thread made me revisit 'Ed's Diary' again. http://www.greenplastic.com/coldstorage/articles/edsdiary/ Some very honest lines such as
"working on 'up the ladder'. 30 seconds into it & it sounds utter shite. thom stops it" lol.

Ha, I remember that. EOB always seemed like a super chill dude to me, I guess his pretty-boring-but-nice-sounding solo music more or less confirmed that

that's funny, to me Knives Out sounds like a poor man's reprise of Paranoid Android. Or is that what you meant?

― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Monday, March 8, 2021 7:33 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Huh, yeah I guess you're right there. It's a bit of a mash up of a few if their songs. Even has a little bit of Creep in there "I want you to no..."

Here's my shot at a 13-track, 56-minute album pulling from both albums and the Amnesiac b-sides. I would be very happy with this tracklist, though I know I left off a few fan favorites:

1. Pyramid Song
2. Kid A
3. Everything In Its Right Place
4. You And Whose Army?
5. The Amazing Sounds Of Orgy
6. I Might Be Wrong
7. Packt Like Sardines In A Crusht Tin Box
8. In Limbo
9. Idioteque
10. Morning Bell
11. Like Spinning Plates
12. How To Disappear Completely
13. Fog

i like the b sides a lot, and in a more directly emotional way than the actual album tracks, which are a lot more worked on, thought about, and treated. theres a spontaneity in songs like fog and worry wort you dont get in the proper albums.

if i was to make it one single 45-50 min album, then id make it like this. side one: packt like sardines, idioteque, everything in its right place, i might be wrong, pyramid song. side two: national anthem, optimistic, kid a, you and whose army, life in a glasshouse, motion picture soundtrack.

also how good is that bassline on i might be wrong?

The EOB diary weirdly doesn't really mention much about the electronic things going on, guessing because he wasn't that involved on those. The song he seems to be more excited about is "Optimistic", I guess because that's the one where he contributed to the most.

We didn't get a KID A 20th Anniversary in 2020. Hope we get a KID A / Amnesiac one. Judging by Ed's diary there's many different takes of each song and lots of early tests of songs that didn't make it in here (Up on the Ladder, Neil Young*9 / Bombers (4 minute warning), Innocent Civilians (sit down stand up), A wolf at the door, gagging order, true love waits...) + probably many more that ed doesn't mention

I think these KID A/AMNESIAC might have been the most productive Radiohead sessions, there must be a treasure trove of unreleased material and demos in there.

i think some word leaked out that they were preparing something... Maybe for the 25th at this point

iirc most of the songs of HTTT were actually leftovers from these sessions.

xpost: amnesiac was released in June 2001 so I'm guessing if they're actually doing a 20th anniversary for both albums we'll hear news before march/april.

I have probably said this elsewhere on ILM but for my nobody GAF opinion: Kid A is far and away the better album, the best in their catalog, and probably one of the 3 or 4 best rock albums of the 21st century if we're being honest here. And yet, I still listen to Amnesiac 2x as often, especially in winter. It's become my favorite of theirs even though it objectively falls short of at least a few others. It's got the closest thing to the Radiohead atmosphere I want to hear most often 20 years on.

Cognitive dissonance. Amnesiac is at least as good as Kid A and you know it.

Amnesiac seems to be tougher, a bit greyer. I'd love a good set of outtakes from this period. It's weird as I've mot really listened to this stuff in a decade but now I think I like it even more. Lockdown has somehow made it seem better too maybe.

Hey I just made a list of these the other day in reply to a similar question! All these songs that I've listed are ones that were worked on (written, recorded, or experimented with) during the Kid A sessions. A lot of these songs that didn't make it onto Kid A, Amnesiac, the Pyramid Song single, or the Knives Out single later turned into a large portion of Hail to the Thief. If they were to do an OKNOTOK release for Kid A, I'd imaging we'd get a lot of early versions of these songs in addition unreleased ones.

Sit Down. Stand Up
Backdrifts
Where I End and You Begin
We Suck Young Blood
The Gloaming
There There
I Will
A Wolf at the Door
Gagging Order
I am a Wicked Child
I am Citizen Insane
Feeling Pulled Apart by Horses (Reckoner)**
Up On the Ladder
4 Minute Warning
True Love Waits
Lift
Say the Word*
Follow Me Around*
I Froze Up*
Whatever Happens*
Ed's Scary Song*
"Jonny Scott Walker Song"***
* Unreleased

** The version of Reckoner/Feeling Pulled Apart by Horses that was around at this time is way different from the version of both songs we ended up getting so I'd consider it still unreleased.

*** That's just what Ed called this song. It either had its name changed and was released or it remains on the pile to this day.

https://www.reddit.com/r/radiohead/comments/8vg7ig/what_songs_are_unreleased_from_the_kid_aamnesiac/

Found this post on reddit. Not sure about the source but if true 11 tracks from HTTT - 8 if we only go for actual album cuts - were actually started during the Kid A period.

Maybe it's just me but I don't really want to know how the sausage gets made. Kid A as released, Amnesiac as released, etc., is the be-all and end-all as far as I'm concerned. I feel this way about all the music I love.

I dont want alt takes unless they're exceptionally diff, but I would like unreleased songs.

the source for that reddit post would mostly be ed's diary & anything that wasn't mentioned in it was played in one of their webcasts from the time.

feeling pulled apart by horses changed significantly but the final version of the song is clearly the thom solo version so i wouldn't count it as an unreleased song. lots of their songs existed in radically different arrangements before their final version

xps Very good. Me and my mixtape of highlights from the 17hr OK Computer demo leak are here for it!

That’s like the best part of the song wtf!

I find the brass kind of poorly attached to the song. It just sounds like a mot entirely succesful/coherent experiment. The live version on the IMBW ep is better for my money.

Oops meant to put that first line in quotation marks

i have made a kid amensiac playlist also, altho its meant to be just one beefier album as opposed to a double/triple! its my go-to when i want to listen to radiohead these days. it keeps certain sequences intact.

case in point:
1. everything in its right place
2. kid a
3. national anthem

but then
4. transatlantic drawl

which i feel carries on the chaotic energy from natl anthem b4 settling it down v quickly for

5. pyramid song
6. pulk/pull revolving doors

which have to stay together bc they both slap and also because they are stitched together.

then the acoustic-y stuff
7. optimistic
8. in limbo
9. cuttooth

before the more electronic/ambient stuff again
10. worrywort
11. packt like sardines in a crushd tin box
12. idioteque
13. like spinning plates
14. treefingers

clocks in at just over an hour.

lol. i ended up making two diff playlists. after going back to this, i dont think all the instrumental/more warp-aspiring pieces work that brilliantly, and are better as b-side material or if you really make it a proper double album. so i made a single lp playlist thats: packt like..., idioteque, everything in its..., i might be wrong, fog, kid a, worrywort, you and whose army, life in a glashouse, motion pic soundtrack.

thinking about this material, there is something just really tightly clenched about a lot of it, like it was just too worked on maybe? (really does remind me of dangelos voodoo in that sense). if they do release something this year with outtakes, if they are like the b sides, i think they will be much more enjoyable to listen to.

the relative looseness of a song like fog really works as a bit of a release in comparison to the other songs.

actually listening to those songs with the other album tracks, they sound like they are from different sessions entirely.

Mark - Sean -- I love Wish You Were Here!

moka i like your kid a/b/c sequences! any one of the three looks great; i may cue one up for later

this one, especially

KID C

1. Hunting Bears
2. I might be wrong
3. Optimistic
4. Knives Out
5. How to Disappear Completely
6. You and Whose Army
7. Trans-atlantic drawl
8. Morning Bell Amnesiac
9. Cuttooth
10. Fog

i have done numerous attempts at re-sequencing KidA/Amnesiac for lord knows how many years and i've always ended up in that immediate realization that i would never change anything about the opening 4 songs of Kid A, which, then based on my love of the songs on the latter half of the album, has left me not changing anything on it.

try the best you can, the best you can is re-sequence Amnesiac with that eras b-sides.

I'm not bothering anymore. Got to take it as is.