Defend the Indefensible: Jefferson Starship

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Watching a block of their videos on VH1 Classic, and was reminded how bad their songs were even by '80s AOR standards. Granted, the video for "Layin' It On The Line" features a cameo from the Residents alongside SF mayor Willie Brown, which is some sort of achievement, but their music hurts my ears, eyes, and soul.

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:02 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think you summed it up. But they're always changing corporation names, doncha know.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

I sheepishly admit to liking "Miracles". And "Jane" and "Find Your Way Back" are amusing in a drunken karaoke sorta way.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

Did I just read this right?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:19 (9 years ago) Permalink

I love "Jane," "Find Your Way Back," and "Stranger." I am a corporate rock whore.

― J (Jay), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

Josh, you bastard, they have some good songs (yo - this is Rob S!)

But check the search function at the bottom of the page ... there was a previous thread about JS. I had an epiphany a few weeks ago listening to "Count On Me". God, that song is beautiful.

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

You mean Starship? That's what they were called in the 80s, and they were horrible.

Jefferson Airplane made several great records during the late 60s though.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

Geir, have you forgotten all about Jefferson Starship? You don't like the melodies on "Miracles" or "Count on Me"? They're right up your alley.

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

I don't know Jefferson Starship (a 70s band, mostly) very well, but if those tunes are anything like the stuff Starship did in the 80s, then boring typically American AOR is not at all right up my alley.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:53 (9 years ago) Permalink

pretty indefensible stuff, but like alex i must admit to to a secret passion for "miracles."

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:55 (9 years ago) Permalink

i'd say there's some home-taping material on red octupus

― dylan (dylan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 21:57 (9 years ago) Permalink

{Hey Rob! No show at Seam?)

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 22:17 (9 years ago) Permalink

egads ... i know, i'm a punk; i couldn't motivate .. i feel like a shit for missing it. I hope our NY friends can forgive me.

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 22:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

1. They managed a huge hit with "Miracles" despite saddling it with the immortal couplet "I got a taste of the real world/when I went down on you girl".

2. "Blows Against The Empire", which is nominally a Jefferson Starship album, is not all that bad, especially the noisy electronic bits, a result all the more surprising considering the number of hippies involved.

― Nom De Plume (Nom De Plume), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 23:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Miracles" is a fine recording. No shame in liking that. I've never owned the album, but someday I'll probably claim it from some $0.50 bin.

I like "Miracles" for the same reasons I like "Magnet and Steel" and Gerry Rafferty's "Right Down the Line".

― Phantom Twinkies, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 00:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

I have performed "We Built This City on Rock and Roll" for a live audience and it went down a storm.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 00:50 (9 years ago) Permalink

1. They managed a huge hit with "Miracles" despite saddling it with the immortal couplet "I got a taste of the real world/when I went down on you girl".

...a couplet that was edited out of the AM version, btw.

― Christine 'Green Leafy Dragon' Indigo (cindigo), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 01:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

"We Built This City" is the best song they've ever done.

― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:24 (9 years ago) Permalink

I loved that song!

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

'Miracles' fans who see either _Dragon Fly_ or _Gold_ for cheap should pick either one up to hear 'Caroline', another good Marty Balin ballad. _Red Octopus_ is pretty solid all the way through.

Paul Kantner's always good for at least one decent conspiracy-theory spiel per interview. I'd bet he's got a good book in him (I know he did that 2CD spoken word thing a few years back but I haven't heard it).

― Jeff Wright, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now" was written by the father of a Stroke

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Their performance in the Star Wars TV Christmas Special is one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life. Actually the whole special is, but anyhow...

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

Anthony wins.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

Am I the only one who digs "Jane" and "Find Your Way Back"?

"Out of Control" and "Winds of Change" are dire, though.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 04:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

I like them! I like "Jane" cuz it reminds me of my friend Jane. Also "Play On Love", "Ride the Tiger" and "Rock Music". I said as much on the earlier thread. Except I think I've come to like them even more than I did then.

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 04:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

I vaguely remember that Christmas special from when I was a kid. I had totally forgot about it until a couple years ago when Salon did an article about how its been thoroughly buried.

Even as an eight year old I knew it was bad.

― David Beckhouse (David Beckhouse), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 05:49 (9 years ago) Permalink

'We built this city' could be used to end hostage standoffs. The cops could just play it full blast over and over again until the perpetrators give themselves up.

― David Beckhouse (David Beckhouse), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 05:55 (9 years ago) Permalink

"miracles" is a great song. as is "fooled around and fell in love" (which is an elvin bishop song really, but the starship singer guy sang on it).

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 06:08 (9 years ago) Permalink

I am completely obsessed with this band. More later.

― dave q, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 11:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Fast Buck Freddie, Ride the Tiger, Caroline .. none of which I have heard lately, all remembered as good songs.

I saw a video for "Stranger" last week ... and while it is a pretty crap song, they were to get much worse. On Modern Times and maybe even Winds of Change, they were still rockin'.

TS: Mickey Hart -vs- Peter Cetera... Who ruined a band more?

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 12:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

Peter Cetera was a good bass player as well as being a brilliant vocalist! "Questions 67 & 68"!

― dave q, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 13:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

Got 'Earth' for 50p last month. Side 1 is Narconon music ("Count on Me" is OK), Side 2 is interesting tho. There's a rocker where Marty Balin screeches a lot, a Slick political gospel number, and more Kantner illuminati shit. The pictures on the back on neat too. Balin adn Slick are cool as fuck, Kantner looks like Harry Potter as usual, and Craig Chaquico looks exactly like this guy who played in a covers bar-band back home who knocked up my cousin before leaving town without telling her. Also I think the reason this band obsesses me on a Freudian level is that my dad worshipped Grace Slick and my mother liked Marty Balin, so naturally they married the exact opposite type of person from their idols, ie each other. Which might explain why my 'relationships' have always been so shitty. (Slick and Balin apparently never even had sex with each other but they recorded 'Miracles' as if they did, right?)

― dave q, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 13:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

I always defend
freedom at point zero but
no one believes me!

the hottest girl in
our junior high school had it
in social studies

we bonded over
its strange sci-fi harmonies,
sang "jane" together

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 13:32 (9 years ago) Permalink

....and Craig Chaquico looks exactly like this guy who played in a covers bar-band back home who knocked up my cousin before leaving town without telling her

I hate how he went from looking like a hirsute rock bandito circa Modern Times (which features one of the all time stinkeroo album covers) and morphed into a feathered-haired cruise director look circa dropping the "Jefferson" from their name.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 13:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

He's the guitar equivalent of Kenny G these days.

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 13:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

Re hair: FUCK YOU, WE DO WHAT WE WANT!!!

― c chaquico, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 13:57 (9 years ago) Permalink

Hahahahahahaha.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 14:59 (9 years ago) Permalink

I like "sara"

― King Kobra (King Kobra), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

Some songs I still love by Jefferson Starship:

Caroline
With Your Love
Miracles
Ai Garimasu (There Is Love)
Fast Buck Freddy
Tumblin'
St. Charles
Find Your Way Back

― Joe (Joe), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 01:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

If I could make copies of the Star Wars Christmas Special for everyone on ILX I would. It should be part of the welcome wagon. But the one copy I have is actually my ex's whose never asked for it back. Plus I dunno how to copy videotapes.

It will make you shit.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 01:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

It will make you shit.

TS: Jefferson Starship v. Exlax

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 01:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

I like "Miracles" too. I used to listen to my brothers copy of Jefferson Starship's Greatest Hits a lot in junior high, right before getting into weird shit (maybe a little after, too--I don't remember). I think I like a couple others, but don't know their names.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 01:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Papa John Creach, I'm in trouble deep, Papa John Creach, I've been losing sleep"

or at least that's how i sing it.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 01:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

Geir, I'm surprised you don't know Jefferson Starship. I think you might like some of their songs, even if you hate all Starship (qua Starship) songs (as I do).

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 19 November 2003 02:07 (9 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

at long last I've identified a song I heard (and loved) over a restaurant soundsystem - like 7 or 8 years ago!
it's "With Your Love" by Jefferson Airplane - lovely Quicksilver/Tim Buckley key changes and guitarplay.

adding past year's guilty pleasure realisation bout "Miracles" that makes 2. wonder what else awaits? biggest volte-face for me since Bread...

― Paul (scifisoul), Saturday, 17 September 2005 15:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

SIR - excuse me, for I am the question, but there is not starship. Not even in the Walloonia. The closest is the Spruce Goose which can fly to the Belgian Congo in 45 minutes and 27 seconds. I demand a name change to Jefferson Spruce Goose.

― Belgium Lemon, Saturday, 17 September 2005 15:34 (7 years ago) Permalink

No apologies needed for being the question.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 17 September 2005 15:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

pah, Norman Connors begs to differ

― Paul (scifisoul), Saturday, 17 September 2005 21:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

Blows Against the Empire is a fantastic record. However, it isn't really a Jefferson Starship record. It is a Paul Kantner solo record (with a line-up similar to the one used by David Crosby on his incredible debut solo LP) credited as, I believe, "Paul Kantner and Jefferson Starship". This record was actually made before the demise of Jefferson Airplane, and I find it just about as good as most Airplance stuff. The first record credited to just "Jefferson Starship" is Red Octopus, which isn't a bad record FM-rock album from the '70s. Dragon Fly is pretty cool but, technically speaking, it is credited to "Grace Slick, Paul Kantner, and Jefferson Starship". So, when defining Jefferson Starship I say it starts with Red Octopus. In that case, I wouldn't waste my time defending them even if that record is okay. But give me a joint and a copy of After Bathing At Baxter's any day. -Justin

― Justin Farrar (Justin Farrar), Saturday, 17 September 2005 23:57 (7 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, despite the noxiousness of the whole Starship enterprise, some of that Marty Balin stuff like "With Your Love" and "Miracles" is pretty good. Perhaps the best defense of the indefensible is that they elevated infighting to a new level, perhaps the best ever seen, at least on Behind The Music type shows. So we see Marty saying "at the band meetings, Grace wouldn't say anything, but whoever was SLEEPING with Grace, that's who would do the talking. It was like a ventriloquist!" or Paul saying "You didn't build ANYTHING."

― k/l (Ken L), Sunday, 18 September 2005 00:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

My love of the Jefferson Airplane/Starship goes so far beyond reason that I can't meaningfully participate in this thread, much though I'm enjoying it. I think the pearly keyboards on "Miracles" and "With Your Love" are the very picture of elegance, and the vocal harmonies on "Harp Tree Lament" (from Baron Von Tollbooth and the Chrome Nun, which, while not strictly a Jefferson Starship record, has all the key elements in place) truly moved them from the counterculture to the AOR as production values go. The intricate vocal arrangement on "Miracles" is worth a second look as well. There are just certain records that affect me at the core, and the JA/JS family are responsible for a ridiculous portion of them. Somehow I'm able to cognize everything after Earth as being from a wholly different band (though FAPZ has its grand moments, to be sure). And I sometimes find myself wishing I could have slept with both a young Marty Balin and a young Grace Slick (while acknowledging that, as Alex in NYC noted [in a different thread?] that Marty became a "lisping whiny narcissist").

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Sunday, 18 September 2005 03:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

If I consider how different Hot Tuna and Jefferson Starship sound, I have to conclude that the drugs must have been really good for those people to even have been in a band together.

― Earl Nash (earlnash), Sunday, 18 September 2005 04:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

jefferson starship were the best of any of those bands. "ride the tiger," you guys!

Yeah, despite the noxiousness of the whole Starship enterprise

ouch.

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 18 September 2005 05:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

musically, "With Your Love" sounds like a sped up version of Tim Buckley's "Blue Melody" (which coincidentally, Helicopter Girl has just covered) crossed with Quicksilver's "The Fool". good shit, maan...

also goes nicely with Dennis Wilson's "You And I". both have lovely Santana/Underwood-esque solo licks.

― Paul (scifisoul), Monday, 19 September 2005 01:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

i remember this song when it came out, it's even more wtf now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVejkvSrGgM&feature=related

― velko, Monday, 11 August 2008 06:24 (4 years ago) Permalink

I have to say, that one left me speechless

― J0hn D., Monday, 11 August 2008 06:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

Also I think the reason this band obsesses me on a Freudian level is that my dad worshipped Grace Slick and my mother liked Marty Balin, so naturally they married the exact opposite type of person from their idols, ie each other. Which might explain why my 'relationships' have always been so shitty. (Slick and Balin apparently never even had sex with each other but they recorded 'Miracles' as if they did, right?)

This left me speechless.

― Bob Six, Monday, 11 August 2008 06:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

I have to say, that one left me speechless

Yeah. I'm sitting here shaking my head going "What the..."

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 11 August 2008 06:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

Weird that no one's mentioned "No Way Out" which was a pretty big MTV hit. Nuclear Furniture was a pretty big record — they sort of sounded like latter-period Styx at that point.

― Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 11 August 2008 16:35 (4 years ago) Permalink

Weird that no one's mentioned "No Way Out" which was a pretty big MTV hit.

I honestly think that was the first song of theirs I heard on the radio.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 11 August 2008 16:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

I'm getting pretty into their mid-seventies run: the music, and the production - when they're mid-tempo & Marty Balin is calling the shots, they're pretty great. However, Grace Slick is one of the worst singers of the rock era and you have to train your ear to tune her out. The non-Balin songs can be p. dire though and it's weird - if you look at the songwriting credits on any given album, they're all over the place - you get the sense this was a band that had a hard time getting enough material together every time, but it was that or open up an incense store or something

― perry en concrète (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 14 July 2012 20:34 (11 months ago) Permalink

OTOH "Fire" from Earth will make you hate music & singers

― perry en concrète (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 14 July 2012 20:48 (11 months ago) Permalink

― buzza, Saturday, 14 July 2012 22:49 (11 months ago) Permalink

i want to live inside that photo

― buzza, Saturday, 14 July 2012 22:50 (11 months ago) Permalink

otm

― perry en concrète (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 14 July 2012 22:57 (11 months ago) Permalink

Naw man, "Count on Me" is a great song but the best part is when you also get to hear Grace singing in the chorus.

― timellison, Sunday, 15 July 2012 00:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

Grace was fantastic from Surrealistic Pillow right through to "Mexico" at least--which isn't Jefferson Starship, but does, I believe, fit into the rock era.

― clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 00:18 (11 months ago) Permalink

I mean, "Count on Me" is like Fleetwood Mac, right? But Marty Balin was like a national treasure as a singer. And then when the harmonies come in on the chorus, something deep emerges from the depths of American musical culture.

― timellison, Sunday, 15 July 2012 00:50 (11 months ago) Permalink

Aw, I've always really liked Slick's vocals. Makes the Airplane and Jefferson Starship for me. I can even listen to some of the 80s Starship hits. Anyway, the OP sounds like it's talking more about Starship than Jefferson Starship but I really love Red Octopus and would probably rank it among the better 70s pop/rock records. I've been curious about their other albums. Just put on Freedom at Point Zero. I like the stadium rock singles from that one.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 15 July 2012 18:28 (11 months ago) Permalink

This is the actual cover of Marty Balin's 1997 album, Freedom Flight.

― tallarico dreams (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 27 July 2012 04:14 (10 months ago) Permalink

that's an awesome cover.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:24 (10 months ago) Permalink

puts all those chillwave kids to shame.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:24 (10 months ago) Permalink

this is the cover of the album he made after that one

― tallarico dreams (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 27 July 2012 04:25 (10 months ago) Permalink

getting pretty obsessed

The first album cut in the barn in New Hampshire was a tribute to Scott Joplin, and Marty Balin's Better Generation was the second. The late Jimmy Miller always said to use a studio that doesn't need to have the bugs ironed out, and that wisdom rings so true on Better Generation, an album of good music recorded at an inadequate facility. The album deals with GWE (Green With Envy, a terrible name for the short-lived label) emerged from Balin's negotiations with producer Jimmy Miller. Miller very much wanted to produce Balin, and in 1988 a deal was struck with Mission Control Studios (no relation to the company that handles the Jefferson Starship, also, coincidentally, called Mission Control). New Kids on the Block were recording with studio owners the Jonzun Crew and the brothers Jonzun kindly opened the doors to this project -- it was the investor with Jimmy Miller's company who completely dropped the ball. Three years elapsed between the Miller talks and the creation of this album.

― tallarico dreams (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 27 July 2012 04:27 (10 months ago) Permalink

pure marty fire

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:28 (10 months ago) Permalink

do these guys actually listen to these albums after they make them? do they even know what they sound like? because they sound pretty terrible, but it never seems to bother anyone.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:29 (10 months ago) Permalink

they try to go for that bygone BIG sound but the money isn't there or the studio and BIG ends up sounding like BUTT. they should try small. some tiny little analog studio run by a beardo. i know about ten of them. they never do that though. they could make really nice sounding records for not a ton of money.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:32 (10 months ago) Permalink

omg scott this post is like my favorite post ever

do these guys actually listen to these albums after they make them? do they even know what they sound like? because they sound pretty terrible, but it never seems to bother anyone.

― tallarico dreams (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 27 July 2012 04:32 (10 months ago) Permalink

i just posted "hearts" on another thread! by mistake. anyway, 1981 marty sounded much nicer. i love that song. hell, i'll post it again.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:38 (10 months ago) Permalink

Forgot there was a time when the 'plane (or a few of them, anyway) embraced keytars and electronic drums, thus gaining them entree into MTV's Spring Break lineup:

― Sun? Sun? It's your cousin, Marvin Ra (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 27 July 2012 04:38 (10 months ago) Permalink

yeah KBC was the hottest bar band ever! but not really. if i saw them playing a wedding i don't even know if i'd look up from my shrimp cocktail. jack casady is a living god and he should be treated like one.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:45 (10 months ago) Permalink

I would look up from my shrimp cocktail during this, if only to say, "Wait...who the fuck is that? What the fuck are they doing?"

Jefferson Airplane/Starship pretty much cornered the market on the uncanny valley of 60s bands desperately trying to stay "relevant" in the 80s.

― Sun? Sun? It's your cousin, Marvin Ra (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:33 (10 months ago) Permalink

― how's life, Friday, 27 July 2012 18:50 (10 months ago) Permalink

missed the use of the term "the uncanny valley" yesterday and when I did see it today I didn't quite know how it fit but now I think it's pretty sweet

― Like Monk Never Happened (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 29 July 2012 03:45 (10 months ago) Permalink

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