RFI, BFB, S&D: Charles Ives

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Am keen to investigate the Ives ouevre, but have no idea where to start - any suggestions? Anything I should avoid? Can he be compared to anybody else? Yr help wld be much appreciated...

― Andrew L, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I like the songs, weirdly-chorded piano settings of Presbyterian hymns like 'Shall We Gather At The River'. There are a couple at the end of a Cleo Laine recording of Pierrot Lunaire I have. That wouldn't be an ideal place to start, though marginally better, perhaps, than ELP's readings of his work.

― Momus, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Oh god, ELP covered Ives? What little I've heard of Ives (don't know any titles) was intriguing, but the idea of them covering him puts me off my food.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Ives is very cool. He was the president of Ives & Myrick Insurance, I think... Making him, along with Wallace Stevens, one of the few corporate/artistic people in the 20th century who have had such a profound influence on their genres. He was heavily influenced by transcendental philosophy, and he was highly praised by everyone, from critics to composers. It's kind of hard to categorise Ives's work as a whole--he ranged the gamut, from goofy funny to incredibly deep and forward thinking. He did a lot of stuff with multiple meters. He's probably most famous for running three marching bands together--people tend to go, "I'm doing Ives!" when they're being experimental and playing "Louie Louie" over "Stairway to Heaven." But that's like saying that Einstein is most famous for his hair. There are definitely nostalgic elements in a lot of his works, he used a great deal of American hymns and pastorals, which can lend one to develop a simplistic impression of his work. This is true of works like "Barn Dance," which I played as a wee one, and "Children's Day at the Camp Meeting," both of which have definite fiddle or folk elements. Then there is the famous "Three Places In New England" Symphony, which has some incredibly densely, and incredibly subtle (difficult to play,) orchestration and is gorgeous. You may also wish to check out 114 Songs, I think it's called, which takes a selected look at Ives's art songs--I've only heard a few, but he's definitely flexing his training muscles on some of those songs. Of course, if you're really in for a beating, check out Ives's Universe Symphony, where he's got like a gazillion percussionists on click tracks going playing odd meters. I have a hard time believing that he actually heard it, but I guess the point is that, like new complexity, you're supposed to enjoy the horrendous traffic jam. To be quite honest, if you go to the record store, and there are like, 10 copies of a particular Ives piece, it's probably one of the more famous ones, and likely one of the more accessible ones as well.

oooh, and I have no idea why this popped in my head, but check out Henry Cowell. He's not at all the same, but he's really interesting too. And Berg. But now we're really veering off track.

― Mickey Black Eyes, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

So have Kronos Quartet, with Ives actually singing along (in the way that Nat King Cole wound up singing with his daughter). Someone mentioned somewhere on ILM recently that his "Unanswered Question" was the first ambient composition, which might very well be true--but his "Universe Symphony," which he worked on for four decades, is certainly the strangest music one could imagine from 1911 or any other year: it's composed for "multiple orchestras" though much of it is nearly inaudible. It's more futuristic than the Futurists. The first true "space music" since Pythagoras. There's a four-volume set of his songs on Troy, too many to ever remember--the best are either very cranky like the Kronos "collaboration" or lost in wondrous nostalgia. The worst to say about Ives is that in positioning himself as an anti-academic he also became somewhat of a homophobe, no more unusual then than now, but he supposedly (if I remember correctly) denigrated people like Partch and Cage, who might otherwise have seen him as a father figure.

― X. Y. Zedd, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Mickey, you must have posted at exactly the same time I did, and your answer has much more authority than mine, thankfully. Gee, and I was going to mention Wallace Stevens and Henry Cowell, too! Good recommendations.

― X. Y. Zedd, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Thanks! I'm a little embarrassed at the whole "authority" bit--if any of my classical composer friends read what I just wrote, they'd probably take me out and give me a good drubbing. That's just one heathen musician's take on a world long since abandoned by me.

I'm more impressed with my classical mates who can decipher Ives's oft-cryptic scores and make something beautiful out of it. It's quite depressing, really, that when I put on Chopin or Berg or Mozart, I realise how far modern pop music has to go in terms of the depth of humanity that's possible. Sigh. (Not trying to bait anyone!)

― Mickey Black Eyes, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Mickey and everyone else - thanks for yr informative posts - pl. keep 'em coming, all you lurking 20th C composer afficianados. Come payday I will investigate further...

― Andrew L, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

The only Ives CD (it's a double CD) you need is this: Ives: The Symphonies / Orchestral Sets 1 & 2

― Jeff, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I really like my CD of Gilbert Kalish performing the Concord Sonata. Some of the songs are very nice, too -- "The Children's Hour" comes to mind, as does "Tom Sails Away".

― Phil, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

'Of course, if you're really in for a beating, check out Ives's Universe Symphony, where he's got like a gazillion percussionists on click tracks going playing odd meters. I have a hard time believing that he actually heard it, but I guess the point is that, like new complexity, you're supposed to enjoy the horrendous traffic jam.'

this sounds great!! (and its not bcz I'd like a beating oh no!)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

I wouldn't describe it as a traffic jam at all. I think you'd love the piece though, Julio; the opening 'life pulse' features twenty seperate time signatures coming into metric phase once every (I forget precisely) 8/12 seconds, sounding off on the ONE.

Ives left the piece unfinished, but the melodies and overall structure were definitely there: the Larry Austin realization is the only one currently available. Starts in absolute silence, takes about two minutes to fade in. The clashing time signatures are introduced one at a time, some melodic lines circling around the baffling percussion parts. It builds louder and thicker for about twenty minutes before breaking apart into orchestral swells.

The recording on Centaur is the best and comes with a great version of the Second Orchestral Set.

Prefigures minimalism (the 'life pulse' section is loop-based and designed to be played as long as possible), incredibly abstract use of percussion parts (still largely unheard of before Varese/Cage), dives even further into microtonality than the fourth symphony.

Johnny Reinhard's version is due to be released soon; extends the 'life pulse' out, using the orchestral sections to bookend and punctuate extended 'life pulse' sequences. I've got a fantastic room recording of the premiere, and I'm counting the days until the CD comes out...

― milton parker (Jon L), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 18:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

I disagree with Jeff's recorded pick for the symphonies upthread, it's nice to have one stop shopping but the key piece is the Fourth and you still can't beat the Stokowski or Tilson Thomas. John Adams has a new version with the Ensemble Modern which is very precisely rendered/recorded, but I need to let it sink in a little more.

Favorite versions:
MTT's versions of the Symphonies are very dependable and easy to find. My favorites are the Third, the Fourth and 'Holidays'.

'Holidays' Symphony -- hunt down the William Strickland on CRI (vinyl only)

Concord Sonata - John Kirkpatrick on Columbia (by a long shot -- also vinyl only -- what the hell is Sony waiting for?)

First Sonata - Herbert Henck on Wergo

'Music For Chorus' - Gregg Smith Singers on Columbia (fantastic LP of songs for chorus and the terrifying, beautiful Hymns -- still vinyl only)

the recent James Sinclair recordings on Naxos & Koch are great: wild and wooly.

favorite books on Ives remain the Cowells' biography, Vivian Perlis' 'Ives Remembered' and his own Memos.

Scott Mortensen's survey is frighteningly comprehensive and helpful: http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Ives/RR_Ten_Essential.htm

― milton parker (Jon L), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 18:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

thanks milton, I saw yr posts on dissensus and Ives is one of those things I haven't got round to despite knowing that I'd love it if i did.

(I wz thinking of starting a thread called 'schoenberg and rap' after I read charles rosen's mini-bk on him last weekend but er...maybe later)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 20:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

Ives' music touches on just about everything in 20th century music that I love. Collage & quotation (sampling), pantonality, microtonality, bizarre piledriving rhythms & percussion arrangements. I even hear minimalism in the infinite repetition of "Universe". MTT's Holidays Symphony was my first one and it's a good representative disc.

Though I'm one of the (apparently) few big fans of Austin's "Universe" disc on Centaur, I think you'll like it too... Austin claims his realization is intended as a 100% Ives composition, which makes some people very angry. It sounds utterly different than any of his other pieces, and it doesn't quite trump the Fourth (the masterpiece), so some Ives fans were very disappointed. But I count the Centaur disc as one of my favorite Ives CDs.

There's a good article by Johnny Reinhard which touches on his upcoming realization here: http://www.stereosociety.com/body_jrpolymi.html

― milton parker (Jon L), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 20:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

Mortensen's review of the Holidays is short and to the point: http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Ives/RR_Sym_Holidays.htm

― milton parker (Jon L), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 20:39 (8 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

Watched the 4th on the BBC broadcast this evening => Loved it!

You can hear it here. The other pieces were by Sam Hayden (really fits in with Ives) and Bernstein's "The age of Anxiety".

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 17 July 2007 21:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

http://www.analogartsensemble.net/2009/05/charles-ives-concord-sonata.html

^ = favorite recording

― Milton Parker, Thursday, 28 May 2009 18:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

we are eating space cakes and jamming symphony no 3 tonight. never heard it before

― If Assholes Could Fly This Place Would Be An Airport, Monday, 14 November 2011 04:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

10 months pass...

missed "The Unanswered Question" being performed tonight. Why was it first on the program? Why not end with it? Circumstances for tardiness were ironic.

― sarahell, Friday, 5 October 2012 05:19 (7 months ago) Permalink

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