xxp That's just it, though, I experienced those harmonic things as very bitter and syrupy as a child, in Nirvana and in grunge more broadly to an extent, I probably associated it with a seasick feeling more than anything else. This does not seem to have been a common side effect, of course.
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 20:47 (two years ago) link
Not to undercut Cobain's agency, but with breakthroughs as seismic as Nevermind's you can't overlook serendipity. The album broke the autumn when (a) alternative/college/'modern rock lol' culture had made considerable commercial and cultural inroads, thanks, in part to Pixies, the Smithereens, and their friends in the UK; (b) Soundscan had just made this breakthrough possible. In '91 we learned how popular country and hip-hop were and had always been; now the actual sales told the tale.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 20:48 (two years ago) link
I mean, Trompe Le Monde, the best sounding (and, to my ears, best) Pixies album, came out the same month as Nevermind. Only one of them knocked Dangerous from the top of the Billboard chart.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 20:50 (two years ago) link
Jane's Addiction & FNM also helped sell alt rock/metal to the Kerrang crowd.
― Pfunkboy AKA (Oor Neechy), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:00 (two years ago) link
he clearly had something else going on in the songwriting department
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:08 (two years ago) link
Alfred OTM throughout this thread. Also, I'd like to second recommendations of Everett True's Nirvana biog (both, in fact), which are my favourite Nirvana texts by some considerable distance.
― burnt hombre (stevie), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:11 (two years ago) link
most successes can be owed to right place/right time dynamics but i am kinda sympathetic to flappy's argument, dude was just a cut above, very individual voice that struck the balance between sophisticated and raw/tossed off, and the latter gave so much energy and verve to the former that it's irresistible xp
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:13 (two years ago) link
It's not a binary, though. Talent + luck.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:15 (two years ago) link
One of my postulates is that, contrary to the received wisdom, Nevermind didn't signal the end of the Poppy Bush Interzone but was another weird product of it.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:16 (two years ago) link
So what was the first post-Bush hit or phenonenon?
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:19 (two years ago) link
Something that gets overlooked by those who say that "Pixies/Husker/Replacements should have made it..." is that by the time that serendipity that Alfred mentions, those bands were DONE. I mean, Husker Dü broke up before Billboard even had an Alternative/Modern Rock chart, The 'Mats broke up the summer before Nevermind, and The Pixies were very nearly on life support.
OTOH, Nirvana comes in with a strong major-label debut, a video that hits outside of 120 Minutes & Headbanger's Ball PLUS THE SERENDIPITY.
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:22 (two years ago) link
Biggie feels distinctly '90s. Garth too, despite getting his start in the Interzone.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:22 (two years ago) link
otm
xpost
I'm with Alfred here. I don't think the extra Neil Young debt that elevates Cobain above his PNW contemporaries is entirely commensurate with the level of his band's accomplishment. The FNM/Jane's/general-gradual-acceptance-of-harder-rock-as-possibly-acceptable-style quotient is a big factor
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:24 (two years ago) link
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 2:15 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
oh yeah, ofc, i just also don't necessarily credit it to vig/wallace, guess i'm still talking about production here
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:25 (two years ago) link
nevermind does sound really really incredible tho
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:26 (two years ago) link
when my buddy Greg bought it on a late November morning record store trip (I bought Robyn Hitchcock's Perspex Island) and put the tape in the car, it boomed like Def Leppard.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:27 (two years ago) link
Sidenote: It took me way too long to realize FNM wasn't a mistyped REM or NIN (both of whom also as important as FNM to this discussion).
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:31 (two years ago) link
so do a lot of the records Butch Vig worked on around that time! none of those records had "teen spirit," but "teen spirit" plus the full court press goes a long way.
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:31 (two years ago) link
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain)
I thought it stood for Fine Noung Mannibals.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:33 (two years ago) link
trust me i am not trying to downplay butch vig's work lol, even his later records which are mastered abominably i tend to still love the sound of
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:37 (two years ago) link
There must be an ancient Geir Hongro thread on here on Nirvana vs. Nirvana Uk where he says that although the American Nirvana had a couple of nice songs, the British Nirvana were much better overall.― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 3:26 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 3:26 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
lol he made a post like this in this very thread
― eisimpleir (crüt), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 21:50 (two years ago) link
nirvana ruled
― brimstead, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:24 (two years ago) link
Of course he did.
One of the first music related texts I had was this Life magazine special issue from 1992 on the last 40 years of rock that i swiped from my dad. It had a big feature on Guns N Roses at the end and made a point of saying how Axl Rose was totally macho even though he wore a blouse. In the accompanying photo of some of the band are sitting in a hot tub backstage with varuious blonde groupies.
I don't think Kurt Cobain wearing a dress would have been seen as necessarily effeminate by their college jock fans at the time, let alone offputting.
The FNM/Jane's/general-gradual-acceptance-of-harder-rock-as-possibly-acceptable-style quotient is a big factor
From what I remember, a lot of the contemporary press coverage had it the other way around, taking the acceptance of hard rock/metal as a given and suggesting that discernable hard rock roots, however embarrassing to the band, may have been key to Nirvana's broader appeal.
very individual voice that struck the balance between sophisticated and raw/tossed off
Precisely the qualities that make me inclined to perceive their superstardom as an unlikely twist?
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:40 (two years ago) link
I was three years old when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out and I had pretty much no concept of Nirvana and Cobain until I was older. Lots of people at school had Nirvana hoodies but they were the "mosher" crowd, the same folk who had Slipknot and Limp Bizkit hoodies, very much music for a certain type of teenager (and in my experience, overwhelmingly male). It's what put me off investigating them for so long despite having discovered and loving Pixies on my own - it was loved by an audience who weren't welcoming to me as an effete gay teenager, and who seemed to like a lot of music that was characterised by things I don't enjoy the sound and style of. The idea of Cobain as anti-heteronormative really didn't align with the people who I saw identify as fans.
― boxedjoy, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:50 (two years ago) link
OTM Alfred. I also want to add Sinéad O'Connor and R.E.M. in there for making the U.S. pop charts much more alt-friendly by the time Nevermind and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" landed in the fall of '91 - both got a multiplatinum album and a #1 and a #4 single respectively. And something about the Soundscan thing always unnerved me - like, if Soundscan had been delayed by a few years for whatever reason, what would that mean? Would the actual sales for people like N.W.A. or Nirvana have been undercut and reported at a fraction of what they really were? In all seriousness, I wouldn't know how much of a difference it would make, but could they seriously have been merely gold records at best going by the old system?
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:55 (two years ago) link
Listen, you could've produced Kurt's songs any way and they would've been massive -- I don't think the production on Doolittle or Flip Your Wig/Candy Apple Grey did anything good for their respective artists, and yes Vig did an exceptional job on Nevermind, but Kurt is in a league of his own even when he's recording onto a fucking boombox. I think it has a lot to do with the hooks and the really unusual songwriting in a technical sense--I've said this before but there's a series of great posts on ILX in one of the infinite Nirvana threads that analyzes their songs harmonically and whatever, I'm too dumb to go on but the person said something to the effect of Kurt using dissonant thirds or something. Please someone find that post. They talk about the descending vocal line in the chorus of "Lithium."It's in the power chords he used, how they make NO sense together, yet somehow do. "Lithium" is not only immediately recognizable on an acoustic guitar, it also sounds completely different from most other pop music using standard major and minor chord patterns.
It's in the power chords he used, how they make NO sense together, yet somehow do. "Lithium" is not only immediately recognizable on an acoustic guitar, it also sounds completely different from most other pop music using standard major and minor chord patterns.
Yeah, I wouldn't say the chords make no sense together but the modal mixture and melody-writing is definitely distinctive and effective - to me, though, this answers "why the songs are good", not "why they became Michael Jackson-level popular".
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:57 (two years ago) link
And something about the Soundscan thing always unnerved me - like, if Soundscan had been delayed by a few years for whatever reason, what would that mean? Would the actual sales for people like N.W.A. or Nirvana have been undercut and reported at a fraction of what they really were? In all seriousness, I wouldn't know how much of a difference it would make, but could they seriously have been merely gold records at best going by the old system?
Yes! Rob Harvilla's Ringer article from last week has the tasty details.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:57 (two years ago) link
I mean, I was 11 in 1990 and I could tell that hair metal was done and the next big rock thing was probably going to be one of the bands they were calling 'alternative', though I would not have expected it to be as big as it was.xp
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 22:58 (two years ago) link
to me, though, this answers "why the songs are good", not "why they became Michael Jackson-level popular".
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r),
Exactly!!
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:03 (two years ago) link
Yikes!
Hate to use Garth Brooks as the example, but it's the clearest one from the article:
"It is not quite right to say that SoundScan made Garth Brooks: His second album, 1990’s No Fences, was already a Top 20 hit, though it did jump from no. 16 to no. 4 the week of the changeover. But it’s safe to say he doesn’t score a no. 1 debut with Ropin’ the Wind later in ’91—let alone kick off a string of nine no. 1 albums—if the chart isn’t better reflecting how gargantuan he’d already gotten.
'“Once you realize Garth Brooks is selling better than Mariah Carey and Pearl Jam, and consistently every year, you promote him accordingly,” Molanphy says. “Does Garth Brooks get a Central Park concert in 1997 without SoundScan? Maybe, maybe not.”'
It really shows the domino effect, where more certified/confirmed sales leads to more promotional support from the label, which leads to even more sales, etc. and that circular momentum just keeps going.
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:12 (two years ago) link
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 4:03 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
lol i mean yeah that tracks, sometimes when i am listening to nirvana i get so besotted cobain's melodic talents + his lyrical voice that i'm like, oh yeah, of course this connected (as soon as the lane opened for it). even on bleach, sometimes especially on bleach
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:14 (two years ago) link
obviously right place, right time was a huge factor, but i don't think pixies/husker du/replacements etc. ever had anywhere near the same sort of focus as nirvana did on nevermind, especially with its singles.
looking at butch vig's production credits i'm a little surprised at how few other notable albums from the time he worked on, there's like, siamese dream and dirty (and other albums by both those bands), and then pretty much everything else from that period is just lesser known grunge bands
― ufo, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:38 (two years ago) link
^yeah, I looked earlier and the exact same reaction. It's like right after Nevermind, there was Tad or something
― like a d4mn sociopath! (morrisp), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:39 (two years ago) link
tbf 8-Way Santa is an excellent album! first time i saw Nirvana, they were supporting Tad
― building a hole (NickB), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:47 (two years ago) link
2003: AFI – Sing the Sorrow2007: Jimmy Eat World – Chase This Light2007: Against Me! – New Wave2009: Green Day – 21st Century Breakdown2010: Against Me! – White Crosses
fucking love ALL of these records
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:52 (two years ago) link
those against me! records are great, they really gelled with his style
― intern at pelican brief consulting (Simon H.), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:53 (two years ago) link
I also want to add Sinéad O'Connor and R.E.M. in there for making the U.S. pop charts much more alt-friendly by the time Nevermind and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" landed in the fall of '91
Idk i distinctly remember picking out a CD in the basement of Nobody Beats the WIZ in like 1994 and this kid a year or two younger than me walks in with his mom and asks the salesperson to help him find "Smash" by the Offspring, and he hands it to the kid and the mom says "Are you SURE this is what you want?? Wouldn't you prefer another REM album?"
:D
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 2 June 2021 23:56 (two years ago) link
Andy Wallace and Howie Weinberg were big names at the time tbf.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Thursday, 3 June 2021 00:08 (two years ago) link
Let's not forget Bob Mould was among the producers approached for Blue Baby.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 3 June 2021 00:11 (two years ago) link
xxp kid's mom OTM
― like a d4mn sociopath! (morrisp), Thursday, 3 June 2021 00:19 (two years ago) link
FYI Tad was an influence on Nirvana, and the band was very highly regarded at the time
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:02 (two years ago) link
their records still hold up too, imo
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:03 (two years ago) link
#1 for weeks too
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:08 (two years ago) link
I mean I’m not knocking Tad, I just thought his credits would be a string of huge albums after Nevermind.
― like a d4mn sociopath! (morrisp), Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:11 (two years ago) link
probably already mentioned by I remember reading that the band/kurt selected Andy Wallace cuz they/he liked what he did with slayer
― brimstead, Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:26 (two years ago) link
I just need to say how much I absolutely love the production on Dirty, since it's been mentioned. A true favorite.
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 June 2021 01:56 (two years ago) link
Yes. After Kurt drove Butch crazy with his constantly-shifting mixing demands, the label gave the band a list of mixing engineers that the label would prefer and asked them to pick one. Each name had a selection of relevant credits next to them, and when they looked at Wallace, they immediately recognizing the Slayer records and went with him. Either Krist or Dave later explained why that appealed to them, commenting on the thickness of those Slayer mixes. (It was probably Krist since he was likely to benefit the most as the bass player.)
It's funny to think that Wallace also remixed Madonna's biggest '80s hits. If you have the The Immaculate Collection compilation from 1990, listen to "Into the Groove," he actually plays that keyboard break. (He added it when he made the You Can Dance remix.)
― birdistheword, Thursday, 3 June 2021 02:42 (two years ago) link
Also, before I read Wallace's interview on mixing Nevermind, my understanding of mixing was limited to what I had read about records in the pre-digital era. Needless to say, it's a pretty gigantic leap to what you could do with computers at your disposal. Too many details to remember, but the one that stuck out was how he got Grohl's snare to sound especially good - by taking a pre-made sample and mixing it in with every single snare hit on the multi-track. So every time you heard that drum hit, it was really two different sounds fused together.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 3 June 2021 02:47 (two years ago) link
*immediately recognized
― birdistheword, Thursday, 3 June 2021 02:51 (two years ago) link