Bob Dylan, Plagiarist?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Have you heard about this? What do you think?

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:20 (9 years ago) Permalink

Singer with roots in folk tradition cribs lines shocker!!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:24 (9 years ago) Permalink

not much - he improved the feudal lord line!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:25 (9 years ago) Permalink

next you're gonna tell me all that shit about an unknown legend riding a harley davidson in the world gone wrong liner notes was ripped off from some canadian!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

Heard about this. Don't really care, actually.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:28 (9 years ago) Permalink

After reading the side-by-side comparisons you linked to, I think there's no question at all that Love and Theft was greatly influenced by the book. I've no problem with that at all, but I do have issues with Dylan taking sole credit for the songs on the album.

― Andrew Frye (paul cox), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:32 (9 years ago) Permalink

should Eminem give Tom Green a credit for "The Real Slim Shady"?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:34 (9 years ago) Permalink

Dylan lifted lyrics and melodies when he first started out in the early 60s. That's in the folk tradition.
No shocka here.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Okay, whatevah. So many lines borrowed on one album from one source, though, seems a bit odd.

― Andrew Frye (paul cox), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

Bob Dylan may have lifted some of his recent lyrics from Junichi Saga's Confessions of a Yakuza (we haven't either).
Step One: If you're gonna steal, steal from the obscure.
Step Two: If you get caught, claim it was an "Homage"

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

Okay, whatevah. So many lines borrowed on one album from one source, though, seems a bit odd.
He musta reeeeally liked that book.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

Of course, we live in a much more litigious society so now it's less common.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

two lines = so many lines?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:42 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, Hootie and the Blowmonkey's stole an entire verse from "Ballad of a Thin Man"

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

man, wait til he gets his hands on the Bible!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

Ooops. That should read "Well, Counting Crows stole an entire verse from 'Ballad of a Thin Man' "

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

better keep him away from the Harry Smith box too!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

anyhow...if people were gonna keep stealing from him, Dylan wanted to get in on the theft action.
The record *is* called Love and Theft after all.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

and please please please keep him away from Gordon Lightfoot!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

two lines = so many lines?

James, it's more like 12 lines in 5 different songs.

― Andrew Frye (paul cox), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

Dylan reads book, sees phrase he likes, notes it down, works it into a rambling lyric. Sounds like a good working method to me. I'd guess there are loads of other books that are 'sources' but they just haven't been spotted yet.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

The original author's response is completely on-the-money. All art is borrowing, to steal outright & still create something original is the real challenge.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:49 (9 years ago) Permalink

but he changes the lines significantly (enough so that some of them have cursory similarities at most - ooh he said "shove off" oh and they both mention trees - spooky)(not that that'll stop a Dylanologist)(what will stop a Dylanologist: a girlfriend), and 90% of the time improves them significantly!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:50 (9 years ago) Permalink

My mother...was the daughter of a wealthy farmer...(she) died when I was eleven...my father was a traveling salesman...I never met him. (my uncle) was a nice man, I won't forget him...After my mother died, I decided it'd be best to go and try my luck there. (57-58) vs. My mother was a daughter of a wealthy farmer, / My father was a travelin' salesman, I never met him. / When my mother died, my uncle took me and he ran a funeral parlor. / He did a lot of nice things for me and I won't forget him. (Po' Boy)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

They were big, those trees--a good four feet across the trunk. (241) vs. There's a new grove of trees on the outskirts of town/
The old one - long gone./Timber, two foot six across,/Burns with the bark still on.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

Not that I'm terribly upset by it, as I'm usually one of the first people to champion this type of artistic share-and-share-alike mentality...I just think a small mention in the liner notes about the book would have been proper.

― Andrew Frye (paul cox), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

he may have - Dylan's liner notes are grade-a 'chew on this'

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 13:00 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think this is awesome for all involved. I think it's a nice line in both contexts, I think it's awesome that Bob Dylan was reading a translation of some obscure Japanese historical novel, I think it's awesome that the author of said novel was flattered by the use of his line and is now becoming a Bob Dylan fan.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 14:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

also how much would you give to have bob dylan as your crazy uncle?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 14:11 (9 years ago) Permalink

All art is borrowing, to steal outright & still create something original is the real challenge.
Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief All kill their inspiration and sing about their grief

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 14:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

quote Bono again and yer a dead man

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 16:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Bono woulda said: "Were stealing it back".

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 23:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

(Ha! Now Blount will probably kill me.)

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 23:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, Hootie and the Blowmonkey's stole an entire verse from "Ballad of a Thin Man"

Custos in not-getting-anything-right-ever shockah. Hootie did "steal" (with in-song attribution) an entire verse from "Idiot Wind".

― Mr. Hootie, apparently (gabbneb), Thursday, 10 July 2003 00:07 (9 years ago) Permalink

You sure? Wasn't the Counting Crows who made that annoying song about wanting to be "I wanna just like Mr Jones" ; then they ripped off at least one or two dylan verses ; then they said "I wanna be just like bob dylan".
I'm reeeeaaaly reeeallly sure that was Adam Duritz and his silly white guy dreadlocks swinging around in that video.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

Hahahahahahaha!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

Custos, you silly man, "Mr. Jones" is a lyrically great song and "I want to be Bob Dylan"
makes perfect sense in the context of the other lyrics. I've never heard of them robbing
Dylan but he is obviousy a huge influence on them (though no bigger than Springsteen).
I do agree that his dreadlocks are goofy.

― squirl plise, Thursday, 10 July 2003 21:14 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'm not a big fan of Dylan, but he didn't do anything un-kosher in my mind. He changed
most of the lines, and the ones that didn't change are in an entirely different context.
Standard songwriting practice.

― squirl plise, Thursday, 10 July 2003 21:17 (9 years ago) Permalink

and the lawyers begin drooling at the very thought of plagiarism being successfully defined in a case at this microlevel. some might find it interesting to learn what books dylan's currently reading but it's very disturbing to think that anyone would find such fragmentary use to be in itself a big deal.

― Jon L (Jon L), Thursday, 10 July 2003 22:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

(though given the sensible comments everyone's posting here, it doesn't seem like many people are taking it for a big deal... I'm jus' overreacting to that absurd article)

― Jon L (Jon L), Thursday, 10 July 2003 22:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

In "Out of the Past," a 1947 movie, sleazy gambling millionaire Kirk Douglas hires a private eye (Robert Mitchum) to track down his girlfriend (Jane Greer), who had shot Douglas four times and ran off with $40,000. Mitchum finds Greer in Acapulco, but falls in love with her, and runs off with her instead of delivering her to Douglas. They're eventually discovered in San Francisco, and they split up after Greer shoots the guy who fingers them.

Several years later, Douglas finds Mitchum (who's running a gas station in the desert under a fake name), and summons him to his Lake Tahoe mansion. Douglas is sitting with Greer at the breakfast table -- they're back together. Douglas acts like it's all water under the bridge, and offers Mitchum a "job" (it turns out to be a frame-up) in San Francisco.

"You know San Francisco, don't you?," he asks with a smile.

"Yeah -- I was there on a party once," says Mitchum, with a cold glance at Greer.

***

In "Maybe Someday," from Knocked Out Loaded, Dylan sings:

"I always liked San Francisco -- I was there for a party once."

COINCIDENCE??

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 22:59 (7 years ago) Permalink

And a couple of tracks off Empire Burlesque do the rhymin' and stealin' from films without shame, and more power to him.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 23:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

THE SUN'S NOT YELLOW.

IT'S CHICKEN.

― detoxyDancer (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 23:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

You could do a whole thing just on Robert Mitchum references in rock songs -- he pops up all the time.

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 23:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

might as well steal from the best, right?

― j b everlovin' r (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 23:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

6 years pass...

dylan's latest masterpiece

www.huhmagazine.co.uk/4439/bob-dylan-to-exhibit-at-gagosian-gallery

― tylerw, Thursday, 1 November 2012 18:16 (6 months ago) Permalink

Dylan gettin up on that way-post-prime Firesign Theater level

― Inconceivable (to the entire world) (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 1 November 2012 18:28 (6 months ago) Permalink

not as good as highway 61 revisited, but i prefer it to blonde on blonde.

― save the game like a memory card (cajunsunday), Thursday, 1 November 2012 18:38 (6 months ago) Permalink

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.