REM: Classic or dud?

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I've always wanted to ask a "classic or dud" question, and some recent posts have me curious about this one. I went to college in the States in the 1980s, so I'm required to love REM's first four albums (and I do so without reservation.) I started to lose interest around Document, however, and haven't heard the last 3 or 4 at all. So what do you think? Did they start strong and peter out? Were they always crap? Do you still love everything they put out and look forward to the new one?

― Mark Richardson, Wednesday, 17 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

R.E.M. slowly descending into dreaded dud status. Used to like them (hey my indie credentials are impeccable ;). I started to lose interest around "Automatic..." which still has a couple of great tracks, after that: whatever. In the end I think they only made one classic: Fables of the Reconstruction/etc.

― O. Munoz, Wednesday, 17 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Like everyone else - well, no, probably some people were too sensible - I used to like REM. I loved the idea of a band where you couldnt even hear the lyrics but I discovered pretty quickly that you could and they weren't that great anyway. Even so I was a big fan circa Green and a lukewarm fan circa OOT, and then thought they'd cracked it with Automatic but suddenly after a month or so of loving it had the Damascene revelation that it was terrible.

And I've honestly not really been able to listen to them since. Memory tells me that the first album or so is OK. The myth of REM, that they came along and saved American rock or something, always struck me as odd - did American rock need 'saving'? I'm not that up on my history of early 80s US rock, but the ecstatic reception of REM strikes me as being a kind of reaction to punk - OK the need for new music is appreciated, but does it have to be this noisy and nasty? Ah, here come some 'proper songs', good. A similar thing happened in the UK with the - perceived - difference between new wave and post- punk, maybe.

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Not so much classic or dud as 'unimpressed.' Never really liked REM, except when Michael Stipe was on "Pete and Pete"

We'll give them dud, for kicks.

― JM, Wednesday, 17 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Very much "comfort zone" music, the choice of hip but unadventurous twentysomethings (now in early thirties) everywhere. Art made unobjectionable. But, uh, is that a bad thing? I can't decide, but Stipe's falsetto when he covers Femme Fatale is precious, so I say classic.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 17 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

No band is good forever, so based on my favorite REM material I'd have to say classic. But it feels odd giving that designation to a band that's about as interesting as Matchbox 20 to me now (I'm sure Matchbox 20 is actually great to all you wannabe Chuck Eddys, but you know what I mean ;-)

Tom, I think the way college radio (and students) embraced REM in the 80s was more of a reaction against new wave than it was punk. Something about the Byrdsian harmonies/guitars was so firmly "rock" (and more specifically American rock) and yet also perceived as "different" (probably due to the muttered vocals and murky production.) That's a powerful combination when you're talking about an American pop music movement. I always felt like REM existed beside the punks pretty easily, touring w/ Husker Du and The Replacements and so on.

― Mark Richardson, Thursday, 18 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I read a comment recently in which one of REM claimed that what punk meant to them was the possibility of mixing everything up together, breaking the rules and so on--but what it transpired that he meant was that they could play folk music instead. Which has to mean DUD.

That said, having missed out on REM the first time round, about from the indie disco classics, I've been having a go at their early records. So in two months I may be a fan, but on current form, probably not...

― alex thomson, Friday, 19 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

The strange thing with R.E.M. is that I always knew people who liked them so heard a lot of their music (at least, music from Out of Time, Automatic, and Monster), but never owned any myself. That said, with napster I've checked them out quite a bit, and while a lot of their stuff isn't bad, it's not particularly strong either... that is, except for one song, which I actually feel is one of the most haunting I've ever heard, and that's "E-Bow the Letter" off New Adventures in Hi-Fi. From the constant drone in the background to the lyrics to the amazingly good idea of having Patti Smith on back up vocals, the song just plain works, and is surprisingly powerful, at least to me.

― Sean Patrick O'Toole, Tuesday, 23 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Mark: Touring with the Replacements and Husker Du doesn't really mean anything in and of itself (certainly nothing to do with punk rock) given that both bands were probably trying to be REM by that point in their careers ('mats should've quit after Hootenanny, and Husker Du should've quit after Zen Arcade, or probably Metal Circus to tell the truth). REM was a pathogen; they killed American punk rock by pointing many novel and hopeless bands/labels into saleable (so they thought!) half- assed college rock directions (look at SST records for example...starts out with some seemingly decent aesthetic principles, puts out some outstanding Black Flag and Minutemen stuff, and ends up vomiting forth coffeehouse jangle- nothings like Trotsky Icepick, Angst, later Minutemen etc.) Cosloy goes from GG Allins band(!) to Matador records (the best release on which is the La Peste retrospective which is a better link between REM-culture and punk rock since La Peste were an actual punk rock band and yeah, obviously this is much later but REM created the climate for this whole indie rock thing, where "alternative music" somehow becomes the only music worth listening to). Even the Angry Samoans (who I'm sure hated REM) got kind of boring! Not counting metal (broadly defined to include everything from Testament to Union Carbide Productions to Celtic Frost to Cinderella, all of whom were excellent) and Sonic Youth, there was basically no good American rock music at all in the late 80s, was there? Halo of Flies?!? And now you've got all this alt-roots junk, which is also REM's fault probably, and I blame REM for sanctimonious junk like Live and Creed as well.

Basically REM sucks eggs. "Real World" by Matchbox 20 is a lot better than any REM song. The best thing about REM is that they still show "My Breakfast with Blassie" sometimes on TV.

― Kris P., Tuesday, 23 January 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

their best album for me is still "reckoning", which was released in, what, 1984? best song--'camera'.

― geeta dayal, Tuesday, 6 February 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Oh classic, probably, I think...er....I used to love 'Automatic..' when I was 14, and though interest has petered out over the intervening years, they still hold a place in my heart. Now, like most people, I prefer their earlier stuff, and though I found much of 'Monster' and 'New Adventures..' dull and insipid, on their last album, 'Up', they still managed to pull some gems from their now slightly more ample behinds. There aren't many bands in their mid forties who are still any good at all. In fact I can't think of any. So I salute them.

― Ally C, Friday, 9 February 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I would tend to distinguish between 80s and 90s REM. 80s REM has an engaging sense of being genuinely offbeat (vocally and lyrically - but musically very easy to get along with), whereas 90s REM has an air of strain, lack of inspiration, grandstanding, being 'so humble we're arrogant', 'so ironic we're compassionate', and other atmospheres that I can't do a very good job of putting into words.

I like everything pre-Green - I think that LRP and Document may be the masterpieces, for all their US80srock flourishes. The repetitive jangle of things like 'Cuyahoga', 'Welcome To The Occupation' or 'Heron House' is the sort of predictable thing I like (but I could never have predicted it). I must admit, I do like a lot of the 90s material too: I liked Out Of Time when it came out, recognize that there are good tracks on Automatic (but it got so grotesquely overrated), even have a soft spot for Monster ('I Don't Sleep, I Dream' is splendidly large, thudding and echoing), despite its lack of melodic quality. The real clunker, in my book, is New Adventures In Hi-Fi - BY FAR the worst REM record ever. After that, Up could only be a move up, and it has its moments (none better than 'Daysleeper', as far as I recall). Still, by the mid-90s there was something sadly insufferable about the tone, the image, the projected persona(e) of REM.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 13 February 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

They just left me...cold, somehow. I like a few of their songs on an intellectual level, but the playing, lyrics, and _especially_ the singing seem utterly rote and passionless. Still, like I said, on an intellectual level (chords and notes n' stuff) I like a lot of their stuff. My single favorite song of theirs is "Electro Light," I never hear that one mentioned.

― Jack Redelfs, Wednesday, 21 February 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I was surprised and interested by that last entry that said 'on an intellectual level (chords and notes and stuff)' REM were OK. I am interested in chords and notes and stuff - but from an utterly amateur, non-musicological perspective - and I would be interested to hear what is meant here - cos REM strike me as being really relatively uninteresting from that particular POV.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 22 February 2001 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

If ever there was a band that should have been called "The Emperor's New Clothes," REM was it. This is what they were: a lead singer/songwriter with nothing to say, taking it to the point of making nothing to say a "style"; and a halfassed backup band that never met a cliche it couldn't use. This is a band that goes around bragging about how hard they don't work on their music -- it just comes out of the air, it only takes twenty minutes for them to write a song. Well, gee, imagine that. And here I thought it only took them ten minutes to write them.

Rock and roll is deader than jazz, anyway. The answer to all your questions is, yes, REM really does suck as much as it seems, now that you've emerged from your childhood. Christ, I'd rather hear the Cowsills on any given day than those smarmy assholes.

Just my humble opinion...

― Douglas Fletcher, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

FYI: Cee-Fax one-line review —

REM "reveal" melodic side once more

There seems to be an awful lot of hatred quietly sedimented into those otherwise meaningless claw-quotes, or am I just projecting?

― mark s, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Tom's R.E.M.-success-as-reaction-against-punk theory up there sounds pretty unlikely to me. From a mainstream regular-person non-music-freak point of view, punk did not exist in the U.S. back then. It had no exposure whatsoever. It certainly couldn't have been perceived in any way, shape or form as such a threat that people would need to rally around the first jangly guitar band that comes along.

― Patrick, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

More like cynicism / sarcasm, I think, Mark.

― Robin Carmody, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

REM/U2 etc. - the best worst bands or the worst best bands ?

― geordie racer, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

The reation against punk threory makes sense in the limited realm of college-radio where REM grew from. It could perhaps be more said that REM's sound allowed it uniquely to hold an underground base while also climing the charts.

― Sterling Clover, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

One of those bands I'd like to like, seeing as almost everyone else in the entire world does (possibly an exaggeration), but they're just...well...boring. Sorry.

― DG, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Anybody got "Reveal" yet? Thoughts?

― Dr. C, Thursday, 24 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

utterly shit on TOTP last night, along with RADIOHEAD, fuxache this type of bollux i ask ya !!!

― geordie racer, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Lost interest sometime around 'Automatic', but 'Fables of the Reconstruction' is still lovely. At least Stripe has finally come out, good man.

― Stevo, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, TOTP...he was using an autocue!

― DG, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I've only very recently picked up a few REM albums and really have no sentimental attachment. The first few albums still sound pretty fresh, I think, although I can't put my finger on what's really interesting about them. My favourite at the moment is Up; there's clearly a fair amount of filler but Suspicion, Sad Professor, Daysleeper and Lotus still affect me, however underwritten they might be.

As opposed to apparently every critic around the world, I'm quite disappointed by Reveal. The last thing we need now is another apathetic 'Hey, everything will be alright' album. The tunes are pretty enough but I can't hear anything with the passion of Murmur or Lifes Rich Pageant. Maybe the computers just took it out of them a little.

― John Davey, Monday, 28 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

I too was in college in the 80's and at that time, REM was without a doubt my favourite band. Document made me think they were going the way of U2, but the band remained on my "buy without hearing list". I can't even remember which was my last. It was the one with Texarkana on it. Anyway, there are two REMs. All albums after LRP just aren't any good even though good songs can be found there. Murmer, Reckoning, Reconstruction and LRP are about as good of a 4-set as you will find in history,IMHO. The simplicity should be acclaimed, not criticized. I suppose for me, the deathblow was Buck's experiments with the mandolin. When the guitar left, so did I, and I haven't heared a reason to go back.

― Paul M Lafleur, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

Stop press. I am very sceptical of any REM after about 1991. Imagine my surprise to find myself thinking: cor - this Reveal record is pretty good!

― the pinefox, Saturday, 21 July 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

pinefox - Is Reveal the first record you like of the zero decade? Except Lloyd Cole of course who is doing quite well on his latest actually!

― alex in mainhattan, Sunday, 22 July 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I don't want to overrate Reveal. It's not that great - just a slightly pleasant surprise.

Records I like in the zero decade include: Lloyd, The Negatives; 6ths, Hyacinths & Thistles; Costello / Mutter, For The Stars; B&S, FYHCYWLAP. Of these, I think Lloyd's is the best. EC does what he does. 6ths and B&S are patchy by their authors' standards. I can't think of many others.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 22 July 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Pinefox, I was the one who professed to enjoying R.E.M on a intellectual level, "chords and notes and stuff." I think what I mean is that they sound to me like a GM midi file: No matter the tempo or style, the band just plods along professionally, without any surprises or sudden jolts. They're just not very dynamic. ESPECIALLY Stipe. That said, the actual content of there songs can be quite good, and I really enjoy what I've heard of _Reveal_.

― Jack Redelfs, Monday, 22 October 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

Ugh. I am on of thsoe mid-30's people who luckily caught on to REM fairly early on (about '84). I don't recall them to be claiming punk/new wave/ post-pop/college/alterna....they were just a breath of fresh air when pop music wsa dominated by total shite.

Yeh, anything after 'document' or even 'lifes rich pageant' for that matter is supsect but ya kind of had o be there to understand the significance at the time.....

I but them at this time at of sentimentality

― Michael D, Sunday, 31 March 2002 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

There are nowhere near enough "classic"s on this thread, so... CLASSIC!! No matter how terrible their new records get, they're still one of the best bands ever. How many great albums have they made? Ten?

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Saturday, 30 April 2005 13:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

Well, it's no secret that I think they are classic and are still a pretty good band even though they seem to be in decline. I'm sure they will continue to write quality songs and play good live shows.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Saturday, 30 April 2005 13:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

classic, but they bore the shit out of me and always have.

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Saturday, 30 April 2005 14:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

Haven't made an album that isn't really good yet!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

classic, of course. but really, i'm only posting to point out that kris p.'s post from 2001 is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read on ILM.

xpost:
tim, i think that post could cut both ways...

― john'n'chicago, Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

If they had broken up after Hi-Fi I could be so much more unreserved in my fanship. Hard to believe THAT album is almost a decade old.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:39 (8 years ago) Permalink

i would stretch anthony's comment to UP and think they would've been fine. monster turned 10 and that record was thrilling to me as a high schooler.

still classic, even if i hardly ever take these discs off the shelf any more. i used to debate the merits of gardening at night with my trig teacher.

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Saturday, 30 April 2005 15:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think that Reveal and Around The Sun are below average in terms of their back catalog, but still have some really great songs on them. I fault R.E.M. for making albums that are only half-good but I give lesser bands a lot of credit for making albums that only have two or three good songs. So grading on a curve really hurts them.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think that when Michael Stipe when from being completely introverted to Courtney Loving it up, it was a real trap for the band's overall feel. Shiny Happy People seemed like such an aberration, and then Automatic was a slickly produced return to form of sorts, even if it opened the floodgates further. Monster didn't bother me as much as some folks, and I really like(d) New Adventures and Up. But Reveal was the first album that I found completely ridiculous and middle-agey, even New Age-y. Around the Sun I've never even heard.

I thought The Great Beyond was a lovely single, as was Imitation of Life (even Bad Day fits into this category), but those seem more like lucky accidents than an indication that they could record an entire album as consistent as those 15 years ago.

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

And let's not underestimate the impact Bill Berry's departure had on the band's chemistry. He was more than just the ugly drummer; he wrote quite a few songs. Moreover, when you lose a drummer as solid as Berry, your band's gonna be awful slack in the rhythm department. That's how the remaining members justified their boring "electronic" direction to the press (all those gratuitous allusions to Eno, etc).

If "Hi-Fi" had ended with "Be Mine," it'd be classic REM, probably in my top four or five.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:31 (8 years ago) Permalink

Reveal was definitely the heartbreaker for me, esp. since "Imitation Of Life" was the best song they'd made since frikkin' who knows. Stuck out like a silver thumb and made the rest of the shit seem downright willfully awful. Ending with Hi-Fi would have a) allowed them to maintain that we-four-are-REM beauty (R=4!) and made "Electrolite" their curtain call. "I'm not scared, I'm out of here"!

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

Classic in the 80s, semi classic through the 90s, shit since 'Reveal'.

― I.M. (I.M.), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:39 (8 years ago) Permalink

They're definitely one of those bands where little flaws have become so crippling that it taints previous albums because I can see how little mistakes would evolve into tragedies. Stuff that would be forgivable if that's as far as they'd take it are now offensive.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:41 (8 years ago) Permalink

i've argued with matt perpetua elsewhere about this, but i agree with anthony here - i can't listen to automatic anymore because i think it's so poorly paced. i know there are folks who'd disagree, and i love "side 2" but it's just such a jarring side 1.

having missed the monster tour - which would've been awesome as a high schooler - i was equally thrilled to see them on the UP tour as a college senior. they were ecstatic and did their best to include some older stuff...that the crowd booed!

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Saturday, 30 April 2005 16:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

The warner bros. four-piece years are so tied up with my youth that I find it really hard to judge them critically - the idea of explaining what makes them 'good' is fucked because the appeal was so much less concrete at the time I memorized every melody (if not lyric). If I try to imagine how these albums come off to the unfamiliar I have to assume they're all patchwork nonsense. I'd probably throw Chronic thru Fables at an arty newbie as the early stuff has dance beats and Gehman-Litt haven't brought in the whole awkward arena element.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:02 (8 years ago) Permalink

PC Zeppelin really. Should have broke up when the drummer died.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

PC Zeppelin really

once they moved from dance clubs to theatres

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

It's as impossible to explain REM's allure to neophytes as it is to explain the Beatles. ("But they wrote really GOOD songs!")

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 30 April 2005 17:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 1121 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Not to mention they started making more 'performance-based' videos around that time too, like the ones for 'What's The Frequency, Kenneth?' and 'Bang And Blame', whereas before they seemed to avoid that sort of thing.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Monday, 12 November 2012 17:20 (6 months ago) Permalink

I dunno, Green has some fairly straight performance based vids like Turn You Inside Out, then you've got Shiny Happy People and Sidewinder. The Monster vids are true to form in that there's a mix of performance and abstraction. Kenneth video plays with the conventions of performance videos by revealing the cameras filming them towards the end. Crush With Eyeliner is all about self-invention and artifice, so having Japanese kids pretending to be REM and doing a great job at being trashy pop stars is witty and apt. It's shot to look a bit like an early Wong War Kei movie, which only adds to the charm. So it's 90s irony all the way, rock videos in quotation marks. Tongue's video was a return to arty abstraction. Perhaps with New Adventures there was more of an emphasis on performance based vids. The series of vids or short films Stipe commissioned for CIN were great though, especially that young John Lennon guy dancing around Shoreditch and the pissing horse. And the John Giorno Warhol screen test for We All Go Back was beautiful. I suppose that was just a nice way of using up Warners money - just like they did when they commissioned arty videos for Out Of Time album tracks.

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 12 November 2012 17:59 (6 months ago) Permalink

So. Central Rain is a performance video

― beef richards (Mr. Que), Monday, 12 November 2012 17:59 (6 months ago) Permalink

True dat. I believe that was lead single from Reckoning, and they needed something for MTV, hence a straight performance vid. It's pretty naff though and doesn't capture the mystery of the band like the great Howard Finster fest that is Left of Reckoning. If I recall there aren't many other performance vids until Green - maybe some elements of performance alongside other stuff. There's the infamous footage of rolling stock promo for Driver 8, but that contrasts with the totally goofy and fun vid for Can't Get There From Here. They get a bit more pro around Document, although the imagery is often clunky - 'he's singing FIRE, so let's have some, er, fire' etc. Hats off to them for them the blatant homoeroticism of the Orange Crush vid though.

Being a huge REM fan in my teens I used to sit and watch and rewatch all the video collections (oh those pre youtube days...), hence my knowledge of them. It Crawled From The South has a detailed section about their vids.

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:17 (6 months ago) Permalink

yeah it definitely felt at the time of Document's big hits that they were one of the only bands all over MTV that made a big gesture of not always being in their videos, that was kind of their 'thing' for a while.

― my hands tra cer (some dude), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:22 (6 months ago) Permalink

they needed something for MTV, hence a straight performance vid. It's pretty naff though

There's a version of this where Stipe's vocal is live. Never seen it, though.

― 5-Hour Enmity (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:27 (6 months ago) Permalink

Ah good point, I think that's the one on the Succumbs video. I think that was the deal - ok we'll do a performance video but it's gotta be live!

I think they gradually softened their stance on videos and MTV for both pragmatic and aesthetic reasons. Once it became clear that MTV could be used to their advantage, I think a lot of rockers embraced the form and its potential. I think REM found a pretty good balance with OOT, Automatic and Monster. The fact that Stipe is up front in several of the videos reflects his interest in the medium. Buck doesn't look very happy getting showered in water in the Drive vid. But then for a huge band to do a video like Nightswimming, with its beautiful non-salacious scenes of skinny dipping and the drop out in the middle, was really bold for the time. I'm sure that affected the song's chart placing, although I think there was an alternative TV safe version too. Some of the other vids seem compromised - the old fella pottering about in Find The River is nice, but the fake in the studio bits are dull.
In the later years the videos were often less inspired, but then there are nice vids like the Michael Moore one for All The Way To Reno, the gorgeous looking Daysleeper clip, and the gimmicky but cute Bad Day. But it's only with CIN that Stipe was given the leeway to say fuck it, if this director wants to give us a horse pissing then we're damn well having a horse pissing!

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:35 (6 months ago) Permalink

To pull my slightly disjointed posts together, I really appreciate the visual sensibility REM brought to their work through videos and stage sets. These were in some respects my introduction to art/indie film aesthetics and added to the mystery and appeal of the band. While their video output hasn't been particularly consistent, it is really cool that Stipe was able to indulge his interest in film on Warners' dollars, giving work to plenty of interesting people in the process.
Tourfilm deserves a mention here too in that it's the opposite of a verite style concert film, while still capturing the energy of the performance.

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:46 (6 months ago) Permalink

didn't buck and mills make a 'deal' with stipe in the later years that he could go off and make/commission whatever videos he wanted to promote the albums as long as they didn't have to be involved and do performance-style full band vids? i guess he was way more interested in that stuff than the other guys.

― my hands tra cer (some dude), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:49 (6 months ago) Permalink

I think that was the deal with the CIN vids. And with the band about to split I guess Warners were happy to indulge them.
But yeah, I don't think the other guys have ever particularly enjoyed making videos.

I was dissing that Drive 8 vid but it's actually ok. All the James Herbert vids are up on youtube under Left of Reckoning. Life And How To Live It is performance based in that it's concert footage, but he messes with the speed and order of the frames and plays around with colour filters. Great! Green Grow is similar, but more smeary and flickery. Great! Nice that Stipe called him back in for All The Best from CIN. Ah, so JH was Stipe's teacher at college:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2010/07/22/2137823-soundings-films-of-james-herbert

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 12 November 2012 18:57 (6 months ago) Permalink

the full ROUGH CUT film is back up on You Tube. god knows why this never made it to DVD/vhs but its' great. larking about backstage at Saturday Night Live! looking for coats with Bill Murray! forgetting the words to Begun the Begin! etc.

― piscesx, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 03:00 (6 months ago) Permalink

Ah great, I was just thinking about that doc. Remember taping it off late night Channel 4 back in the day but I managed to lose the first 15 minutes. My favourite bit: Stipe singing Brandy You're A Fine Girl in the limo.

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 10:33 (6 months ago) Permalink

I remember reading at the time some article about Monster and how REM was going electric at precisely the time that all the big altrock bands were going more acoustic. 94 = the year of Unplugged in New York, "Landslide", maybe Jar of Flies...?

― EZee4snappin (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 15:07 (6 months ago) Permalink

yeah also Nirvana were going to make an all acoustic record next supposedly? Do Rei Me (although only a rough demo) points that way. pretty sad they never made it:/

― piscesx, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 17:33 (6 months ago) Permalink

Why, what happened?

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 18:05 (6 months ago) Permalink

!!!!!!!!!!

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 18:08 (6 months ago) Permalink

They changed their name to Stiltskin

― 'Separate Lives', by Phil Collins & Marilyn Manson (PaulTMA), Wednesday, 14 November 2012 02:43 (6 months ago) Permalink

looks good! http://r-e-m-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/

― piscesx, Friday, 16 November 2012 04:36 (6 months ago) Permalink

I remember seeing a fragment of 'Rough Cut' on Dutch television, I think it was Stipe in a taxi and a rehearsel of 'Tongue'. Strangely, this is not in the whole version of the docu posted above.

― EvR, Friday, 16 November 2012 14:35 (6 months ago) Permalink

i taped rough cut when it aired on pbs. would tape anything rem-centric off tv through the "here's up" concert on mtv. never saw the post-up doc on (iirc) ifc

― da croupier, Friday, 16 November 2012 14:51 (6 months ago) Permalink

the 'This Way Up' doc is great too but is impossible to find even in the 'usual places' these days. was on You Tube briefly a while back.

― piscesx, Friday, 16 November 2012 20:33 (6 months ago) Permalink

So the video for Blue directed by James Franco and starring Lindsay Lohan has finally surfaced. Not quite sure how I feel about it. The Lohan bits are really quite sad, with that fucking scumbag Terry Richardson photographing her and she pouting away. But then I'd like to think the band, give their record, would respect her enough to acknowledge she has self-awareness and agency. LA looks beautiful and sad in the video - the whole thing is rather 'blue' in that sense, all a bit empty. But is Lohan being exploited? Maybe I'm being over-sensitive. She could well be totally in control of the whole situation - I hope so...

http://www.nme.com/news/miscellaneous/67246

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:10 (6 months ago) Permalink

i tried to watch it, but it's just kind of...terrible. it's like 1994-2012 never happened. it's a cutting edge 1993 montage video

― Z S, Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:12 (6 months ago) Permalink

obviously 1994 is some ridiculous arbitrary point i've chosen. it's not like some amazing 1994 music video came along and changed everything. but this video could have been play on MTV contemporaneously with New Adventures and no one would have blinked

― Z S, Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:14 (6 months ago) Permalink

Hmm, yes, maybe I am being oversensitive... but then the video has that deliberate LA sad and sleazy vibe. I guess Lohan is playing a part... Fucking still hate Terry Richardson though. Ugh.

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:18 (6 months ago) Permalink

This seems like quite a high budget video with all the helicopter shots... compared to the much lovelier lo-budget films they got from Sam Taylor Wood, Jim Herbert, Sophie Calle et al.. ah well... I still love this band...

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:20 (6 months ago) Permalink

i'm fine with lohan and richardson and sleaziness, and i'm totally willing to view the video as if i had no idea who james franco, he with the amazing lips, was, and as if were not renowned. but if some dude walked up to me on this street and was like "check out this band and video", i would assume it was by a peaking neighborhood bar band (all respect to r.e.m., whose output pre-1993 is unimpeachable) and the crowning achievement by a sophomore film student

― Z S, Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:23 (6 months ago) Permalink

ok admittedly if the neighborhood bar band featured vocals by patti smith i would be v intersted

― Z S, Sunday, 18 November 2012 04:25 (6 months ago) Permalink

Richardson a sleaze, but I don't have a particular problem with Lohan in the vid - given she's happy enough to say fuck off to people. Would have been more troubling if it had been some unknown 17 year old - "If you just put your hand between your legs you'll be in an REM video, shot by James Franco!".

Otherwise ZS OTM about both song and clip.

― Manfred Mann meets Man Parrish (ithappens), Sunday, 18 November 2012 21:11 (6 months ago) Permalink

You know, while R.E.M. might have put out the occasional record, like Around The Sun that didn't fare too well with critics and fans, they still did an exceptionally great job in their 31 years together. I mean, what were The Rolling Stones doing 31 years into their career? Voodoo Lounge? ...

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Monday, 19 November 2012 18:58 (6 months ago) Permalink

I half agree. "Voodoo Lounge," "Bridges to Babylon" and "A Bigger Bang" are every bit as good as those later R.E.M.. albums, and often better.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 19 November 2012 19:42 (6 months ago) Permalink

I half agree. "Voodoo Lounge," "Bridges to Babylon" and "A Bigger Bang" are every bit as good as those later R.E.M.. albums, and often better.

Bridges To Babylon is a great record from a very late stage in the Stones' career. So is Collapse Into Now, in my opinion. I think someone posted a quote from Mick Jagger earlier in this thread to the effect that "When you're young, you're in a band 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, but, when you get older, it's not like that anymore." Obviously, R.E.M. weren't as close-knit of a gang in the 90s and the 2000s as they were in the 80s, and Stipe, especially, probably didn't care as much about being in R.E.M. in the 2000s as he had earlier in the band's career. But there are still three or four classic R.E.M. songs on Around the Sun - "Leaving New York," "I Wanted To Be Wrong," "High Speed Train," etc. - that I wouldn't want to be without, and I agree, as much as the critics did have fun piling on Around the Sun, it's not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

― Driver 8, Monday, 19 November 2012 20:45 (6 months ago) Permalink

It's not just that they were a different band, it's who they lost. If the Stones didn't have Charlie and instead hired, I dunno, Jim Keltner for those records they'd be significantly less good. The only truly great thing to come from the post-Berry years is how they bright neon light underscored how essential he was to the band, perhaps more essential than any other rock drummer short of Neil Peart. Because like Peart (I know it's a stretch, but humor me) he made a huge contribution to the songwriting and arranging. A lot of drummers, even the great ones, get their tracks over with early then holiday while the rest of the band finishes the album. But Berry, you could really tell how vital that guy was.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 19 November 2012 21:53 (6 months ago) Permalink

Stones maybe not the most shining example of "unlike REM, who were a different band after key lineup changes"

― some dude, Monday, 19 November 2012 21:56 (6 months ago) Permalink

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, November 19, 2012 9:53 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It'd be nice, once the band has been 'asleep' for a few more years, if they worked on some kind of song-by-song book which describes how all of their tracks took shape and who initiated which tracks. I know that since Bill Berry left the band they've been quite open about some of the tracks he had a big hand in... like 'Perfect Circle', 'Everybody Hurts' and 'Man On The Moon' to name three. I know that this kind of thing would be bound to annoy some of the older REM fans who cling to some idea of "mystery", but personally I'm fascinated enough by the material they put out to want to know the details. Y'know, how they worked as a songwriting unit and all that kind of stuff.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Monday, 19 November 2012 22:04 (6 months ago) Permalink

And fwiw, I've never rated Charlie Watts as a drummer, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Monday, 19 November 2012 22:05 (6 months ago) Permalink

I remember reading some account of the band being surprised at Berry's piano playing c. "Out of Time." But I'm pretty sure he was contributing more than just drums, including piano, as early as "Murmur."

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:07 (6 months ago) Permalink

R.E.M. surely took a hit when they lost Berry, just like the Stones took a hit when they lost Bill Wyman, another unsung hero of his band (Brian Jones was one of those guys who were never going to make 30, and it was inevitable that Mick Taylor and Ronnie Wood were going to come along sooner or later). But, if you believe the accounts in the various biographies, Berry had begun to take less and less of a role in the studio several years before he officially quit.

I guess I just prefer to look at the glass as half-full rather than half-empty after Berry's departure. Yes, his departure hurt, but, even at the very end, without Berry, they were still capable of coming up with what I consider to be classic R.E.M. songs such as "Oh My Heart," "Überlin," and "We All Go Back To Where We Belong." Would their late career have been even better if Berry had stayed? Almost certainly, if Berry had been able to maintain any interest in the band or in music, but, by all accounts he had begun to lose that passion even before his aneurysm, so I'm glad that the other three carried on without him. It's not like he OD'ed or slept with Buck's wife or any of the other reasons that cause bands to lose members or break up. He was just tired of the rock and roll life.

― Driver 8, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:08 (6 months ago) Permalink

Stones maybe not the most shining example of "unlike REM, who were a different band after key lineup changes"

Post-Brian Jones, sure, though that was a long time coming, and it dovetailed with Jaggers/Richards coming into their own, fully. But the departure of Wyman ... I dunno. The post-Wyman records were a significant improvement!

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:10 (6 months ago) Permalink

It'd be nice, once the band has been 'asleep' for a few more years, if they worked on some kind of song-by-song book which describes how all of their tracks took shape and who initiated which tracks. I know that since Bill Berry left the band they've been quite open about some of the tracks he had a big hand in... like 'Perfect Circle', 'Everybody Hurts' and 'Man On The Moon' to name three. I know that this kind of thing would be bound to annoy some of the older REM fans who cling to some idea of "mystery", but personally I'm fascinated enough by the material they put out to want to know the details. Y'know, how they worked as a songwriting unit and all that kind of stuff.

The liner notes to the Part Truth, Part Lies, Part Garbage greatest hits album go into some detail on this subject. Buck talks about who wrote what parts of "Driver 8" and "Man on the Moon," for example. There's also a good bit of discussion of who wrote what in the R.E.M. biography Fiction.

― Driver 8, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:11 (6 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, Berry plays piano on "Perfect Circle," along with Mills.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:13 (6 months ago) Permalink

It Crawled From The South is very good for detail in this respect

― Master of Treacle, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:14 (6 months ago) Permalink

Post-Brian Jones, sure, though that was a long time coming, and it dovetailed with Jaggers/Richards coming into their own, fully. But the departure of Wyman ... I dunno. The post-Wyman records were a significant improvement!

As a big fan of both the Stones and R.E.M. - maybe my two favorite bands, ever - I think that Wyman was a lot like Berry in that he was kind of an invisible man within his band while he was in it, but his departure robbed his band of some indefinable chemistry. Furthermore, if you believe Wyman's accounts, anyway, Wyman had a Berry-like behind-the-scenes hand in writing some of the Stones' biggest songs, including "Jumping Jack Flash," for which Wyman claims to have come up with the signature riff.

― Driver 8, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:14 (6 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, I've often thought that Bill was playing more than drums as early as Murmur. 'Perfect Circle', to me, sounds like it was written on the piano, rather than on a guitar and then being adapted to the piano, if you know what I mean?

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Monday, 19 November 2012 22:15 (6 months ago) Permalink

Helped that Berry was probably as good as Buck was at the guitar when the latter joined REM (although some think PB would deliberately exaggerate his rudimentary skills at this time)

― Master of Treacle, Monday, 19 November 2012 22:22 (6 months ago) Permalink

― Driver 8, Monday, November 19, 2012 10:08 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh yeah, absolutely. And if I recall, I do remember them doing an online interview (with Bill), shortly after Bill had announced that he didn't want to continue with the group and it was clear there was very much a mutual respect there. I thought it was very gentlemanly and quite refreshing, actually, to know that it wasn't a massive fall out. That's one of the things that seperated R.E.M. from a lot of bands, for me.

As for the material they made without Bill: I've always liked Accelerate in spite of what other people have said about the record in the past. I think Up is overlong but contains some great songs, like 'Walk Unafraid', 'Hope' and 'At My Most Beautiful', and very recently I came around to Reveal after a good few years of not thinking too highly of it. Really, out of 15... (FIFTEEN!) albums, Around The Sun is the only one I struggle to get through from start-to-finish.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Monday, 19 November 2012 22:25 (6 months ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

http://www.remsongmaker.com/

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 13 April 2013 15:59 (1 month ago) Permalink

Cute! And, every third click or so, shockingly convincing.

― Doctor Casino, Saturday, 13 April 2013 16:05 (1 month ago) Permalink

Dreams of Elysian
Listen, listen to the holler
Take a fortune, take a fortune
Twisting tongues, got a stripe

― What About The Half That's Never Been POLLed (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 13 April 2013 18:04 (1 month ago) Permalink

A matter of course, Jefferson, drive

― Ludo, Saturday, 13 April 2013 20:26 (1 month ago) Permalink

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