That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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Shouldn't that be "Exit, pursued by a theorist?"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

If by "theorist" you mean "Jimmy the mod making yakky hand motion" then yes.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

enter

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

and I love ~~Miccio~~Blount but between this and him wishing ~~Greil Marcus had been stabbed at Altamont~~Ally was Mariah Carey on another thread I do wish whatever bug crawled up his ass would promptly crawl back out.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, no, that comes in the second act, James. The one where Chuck Eddy and Frank Kogan tell the story of the Walrus and the Carpenter.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

is this the one where the guy leaves his wife for a dog and it turns out the dog is sarah jessica parker?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, I think that's the plot to Matrix 2.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

they DID just rehash the first one!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

GET A ROOM!!!

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

We're sorry for ruining the obviously helpful and thoughtful replies to this thread so far, Matos. :(

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 16:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

im still getting over jism being an ism.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 20:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ally doesn't love me! Bawl....and I did this thread strictly to meet laydeez.

Blount, I don't wish Marcus got knifed, I simply asked if the world of rockcrit would be better or worse because of it. The man probably has family. Though I didn't hesitate to make the query about the value of the man's existence, seeing as how he said it WAS a good thing the dude from the Spin Doctors had throat ailments and may never get to sing again, because the Spin Doctor used the word "bitch" in "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong." Marcus set seriously caustic precedent there.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

and I've easily read as much Eddy as you have, Blount. I'm just noting he's way soft on unnecessary hifalutin' verbage. The stuff people are too chicken to say was worthless, lest someone take that as a sign they can't read.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

What's an example of necessary hifalutin' verbiage?

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

My scintillating argot.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

see, the words should at least be PRETTY. Like Perry's post. Much of Shakespeare is necessary hifaultin' verbiage (I want to set the bar high).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

You know, I tried to stay out of this thread, but I can't take it any more. If you don't care for academic tropes & styles, don't fucking read them! I personally like 'em, enjoy reading 'em, and wish there was more not less analytical/theoretical writing about music.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

In critical writing. Shakespeare isn't high-falutin, anyway. He's just four three+ centuries old.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

dude, jOhn, are you making the "if you don't like it, don't read it" argument on a message board loaded with people who criticize for a living?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

well, yes, point taken.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

it's just that your positioning has you saying things like

Some words are valuable, some ain't

and then arguing that other people are guilty over overacademizing...really, now.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

"over"="of" obv.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

I admit that I'm not planning to have my posts reprinted in Artforum. The Fred Durst pic should reaffirm this is all but a vent. And I like theoretical/analytical too! I just like the shit to flow.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

Academic, intelligent prose vs. showing off...

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

So to speak.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

Academic, intelligent prose vs. showing off...

vs. Fred Durst.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

I admit that I'm not planning to have my posts reprinted in Artforum

Christ you should have said something, they've already agreed in principle to publish my piece about this thread and I kinda need the money

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

Words are words. I'm against the idea that the onus of "making oneself understood" in the communication process should always be on the writer/speaker -- the reader/listener has to learn to work WITH the person communicating.

Also, in a forum like this one, it's selfish to assume that just because a concept is over YOUR head, it's over everyone else's head too (cf. "overacademic bullshit").

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

is this thing still going?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

who said I assume the concept is over my head?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

Not me, because that's not what I said.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 21:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think Jody's statement just went way over your head, dude.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

stop encouraging him

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

forgive me. What concept is over my head?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Please feel free to discuss why so many people here feel the need to dress up their thoughts in elitist, impenetrable prose in my absence.

"Impenetrable" to whom? To YOU! You're saying you can't understand it, therefore NO ONE can!

"Impenetrable" belongs on the "use other" pile, along with "unlistenable" (which I was guilty of using when I first got here).

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jody, please see post to John re: artforum.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

Can we please have some examples of this bad showoffy writing? Go on, name names and use quotes.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

the dumbification of ilm continues unabaited

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jess has a point. What was meant as a firework thrown in the middle of a boring study hall TWO DAYS ago is now being treated like a serious stance that must be dealt with humorlessly. Fuck it. Lesson learned. Though I'm disappointed more people didn't defend their use of academic tropes, which was kinda my point in starting this.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

maybe if you'd point out some specific uses of academic tropes, or had an argument that went beyond 'book words is bullshit' they would.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

it's definitely abaited, jess

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jess, that's fucking hilarious.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

The question also arises as to who doles out the positions within a centralized society. Plato argues in Republic the city-state could not reach perfection "until either philosophers become kings or those now kings and regents become genuine philosophers." His belief was that the philosopher class, as the most enlightened and educated class within the society, was the only one that understood the true nature of justice and as such would be best suited to decide that which is just for the rest of the polis. Hayek, in contrast, uses a quote from Lord Acton to most succinctly refute the idea of giving total power in such a fashion: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In other words, while Hayek would never argue that the proponents of a collectivist system are necessarily those who wish to abuse their power, the gulf between individual politics and socialist politics is too large, and in order for a leader to succeed under a totalitarian regime, he would have to be willing to set aside ordinary morals. After making that leap, the regime as a whole would have to agree sufficiently to propel unified affairs forward. Hayek argues that the "lowest common denominator […] unites the largest number of people," and following that group unification, it becomes easy to then "obtain the support of all the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions of their own but are prepared to accept a ready-made system of values if it is drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly." This is the nature of selection, and as such it becomes easy for those with unscrupulous intentions to come into power. Even a well-meaning dictator—which surely must exist—can fall prey to the corruption of power, the fear of which makes it difficult to support any type of totalitarian collectivist regime.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

well, duh.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

May I interject?

I personally don't mind high vocabulary words in any type of writing; it forces me to get out my old and worn dictionary (the copyright's from 1954!) and look up the word, thus enabling me to learn a whole new word (as opposed to "Whole New World", which is a great example of a POS Disney song). However, when it comes to music criticism, I really can't stand the usage of a highly obscure musical artist or film director as a crutch when it comes to the description of said critic's opinion of the album/song/concert and assuming all of the reading audience will get said reference. Robert Christgau landed forever on my "I curse you forever!" list because of similar actions; I mean, what 13-year-old in 1993 Middle America was going to know some of the artists he referenced in his reviews? (Besides, he was one of those music critics who was there at the "it must've happened!" music journalism convention that obviously decided Duran Duran would forever get treated like shit by all "well respected" music journalists no matter what the band did, thus making people such as myself bristle at the mere mention of Q, Rolling Stone, Spin, NME, etc.)

*ahem* But anyway, college-level vocabulary doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, sometimes I welcome it in greedily. I like learning new words, new ways of describing things and putting words together, etc.

― Dee the Semi-Lurker (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

maybe culture shouldn't be geared toward what the average 13 yr. old middle-American could be expected to know.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

somehow i don't think xgau is writing for 13 yr olds, but i may be wrong

ha crosspost

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

To play devil's advocate: why shouldn't a magazine for public consumption have some catering to the public as opposed to purely catering to OTHER ROCK CRITICS? Who are we trying to impress or compell? Each other? Anyone? Why not just have blogs and message boards then?

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

Who are these "other rock critic" strawmen I'm always hearing about? Not everyone who enjoys academic music writing is (or wants to be) a rock critic.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 22:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

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