The State of Bluegrass

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I keep thinking about how the area near where I grew up has changed. I grew up in a place called Newport, Va, which is in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Giles County on the Virginia-West Virginia border. It's an agricultural community with a large college nearby (Virginia Tech), so there's an odd combination of conservative religious values and slightly liberal tendencies. Nearby, however, is Floyd County, a beautiful, remote area with an extremely low population density and lots of dirt roads and the like. In the past 30 years affluent hippie-types from the north have moved into Floyd, buying land and settling there alongside the farmers who are third-generation Floydians and the commune-type (read: poor) hippies who have been there for a while. This weird cross-section of the leftist middle class (the Yankee carpetbaggers), conservative middle-to-lower class (the farmers), the lower class (factory workers, service industry types) and liberal lower class (the commune-living hippies) created a lot of tension in the area high school, where the children of all of these types came together. But in the past five years, Floyd has suddenly seen an artistic and commercial boom. Floyd's isolated location and laid-back lifestyle has led many musicians to settle there -- mainly bluegrass players. In the middle of Floyd, there's a small country store that on Friday nights has a jamboree -- it's happened for years and it's always been free. Local pickers come and play there to a packed, hot room (I've performed there and attended many times). The new Yankee immigrants discovered this weekly community gathering and flocked to it (drawn by its "authenticity?" who knows), and the press quickly followed -- local papers, the Washington Post, Richmond Times, etc., all wrote profiles of the Floyd Country Store (which amazingly has a web site) for the first time, yet it's been there since 1913. And all of this has coincided with the explosion of O Brother Where Art Thou and this return to the soil, to dirt, to roots, to simple things, etc. Suddenly the richer folks have discovered this history that's been existing without them (purposely or not), and it's changed as a result. Suddenly there's an admission fee to attend (a concert on Friday was priced at a ridiculously high $20, yet was sold out) and SUV's pack the surrounding streets. Musicians that for decades have performed for their families and at places like the nearby Galax Bluegrass Festival (the No. 1 annual event for bluegrass) without expectation of money or recognition are getting both. My father, who has played bluegrass his whole life and who taught me how to play, is both excited and disturbed by the explosion -- he likes seeing his friends finally get noticed for their talents, but at the same time he feels as if the entire culture of mountain music is like a circus freak show for the 12-ft lizard tourists. I'm still not sure where all of these thoughts lead, but I suppose that this is akin to the folk and blues "discoveries" of the 50s and 60s. Is it the death of a style or its rebirth? Are some genres better off in obscurity? Should such an insular, fanatical genre be fodder for dilettantes?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:17 (10 years ago) Permalink

The Washington Post story on the Country Store:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A24110-2001Nov1¬Found=true

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:17 (10 years ago) Permalink

The Washington Post story does a pretty good job of summing up Floyd for the tourists, by the way.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:24 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think a lot of people would have been surprised to discover that bluegrass survived in this "natural" form at all--since on the recorded evidence it's been ossified, or the recipient of awful "fusions," for years now. But one of my old bosses lived in rural Maryland and some of the country highways were dotted with bluegrass clubs, many of them flying the stars 'n' bars.

Interesting that you should mention the folk revival since "bluegrass" as a phenomenon was of interest to the folklorists as far back as the mid-1950s (Alan Lomax's "Folk Music in Overdrive" article, etc.). But the relationship of the two cultures (that is, the people making the music and the urban intellectuals doing much of the listening) was comfy enough that there never seemed to be the kind of culture shock and resulting fallout as was evident in the blues revival, say. I've always been fascinated by the bluegrass festival circuit (which resembles the sort of entertainment that existed in your neck of the woods many decades ago) but have never taken part.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

Is it the death of a style or its rebirth?

Death I hope.

Are some genres better off in obscurity?

None that I can think of.

Should such an insular, fanatical genre be fodder for dilettantes?

No.

I have a problem with bluegrass having had to endure living near to one of its hot spots in New Brunswick. This was covered in depth I think on The Lollies mailing list.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

You're right that this more like bluegrass' second coming (or third, to be even more accurate), and, ironically, it was Lomax's work that first got my father into bluegrass in the early 60s (Doc Watson became his personal hero, who would only be topped by Gram Parsons a decade later). The culture shock which was avoided in the 50s (as you mentioned) is unavoidable now because of the flow of information and even things as simple as better roads, electricity, telephones, etc (all of which would be rare in many parts of where I grew up 50 years ago). Maybe my father is just like Irish immigrants in NYC cursing the Italian immigrants who followed them...

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

http://www.tantramar.com/trib/2003/01/22/special_feature.html

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

I don't take a particularly cynical view of this phenomenon, or perhaps the phenomenon that Yancey describes differs in some fundamental way from the previous "discoveries" of bluegrass and mountain music by white/urban/etc. folk. As he mentions a lot of these types of people actually ended up moving to these small cities or rural areas and have sustain not only the bluegass/old time festival circuit but a living tradition. (Case in point: Tracey Schwartz of the New Lost City Ramblers, etc. was ineligible for a traditional music grant, but his son was because he had learned his musical skills through family tradition.) I guess it remains to be seen whether this living-tradition was a doomed utopia.... But then again the musical culture of prewar Appalachia was doomed too, bluegrass being in part a result of economic pressures forcing its residents into cities like South Bend, Chicago, Cincinnatti, etc.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

In Lexington, KY (heart of the bluegrass) I've seen the same thing since 'O Brother'. The troubadour series and Wood Songs series have exploded. The festivals that have been going on for decades are now extremely expensive. I have friends that work the festivals and claim that all the new yuppie bluegrass fans are really rude and obnoxious. Personally, I think it's great that people are appreciating the music from this region. Many of the new fans are snobby jerks, but the artists are getting some money and appreciation they didn't get before.

What I hate is that bluegrass music is being synergized with 'O Brother'.

― cprek (cprek), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

Whats wrong with synergy?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:40 (10 years ago) Permalink

Nothing other than it being a poor word choice.

― cprek (cprek), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Appalachian music was doomed to moving. I'm sure lots of people moved for economic reasons. However, more than enough stayed to carry on the musical traditions and festivals.

― cprek (cprek), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

Of course O Brother isn't bluegrass, but that distinction hardly matters anymore...

Funny anecdote: Two years ago I gave my father the O Brother soundtrack for his birthday. We sat down and listened to it together, and when "Man of Constant Sorrow" came on, my father got a weird look on his face. "Is that Dan?" he asked me. "Dan? Dan who?" "Dan Tyminski. Remember him? The guy I used to play with all the time?" We look at the liner notes and see that it is, indeed, my dad's former picking partner. He was really excited by this.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

On another note, my boss plays bluegrass with his family. I found it interesting that he plays "traditional" bluegrass in a bass/guitar/banjo trio. Whenever they play, they all play around one condenser mic and move up closer and farther away to control the dynamics. He considers playing around one condenser mic to be essential to traditional bluegrass music.

― cprek (cprek), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:51 (10 years ago) Permalink

i don't know if this post is meaningful, except to say that yuppies had already gotten ahold of bluegrass a long time ago.

my father grew up in Chicago in a pretty musical family. after college he moved to Berkeley to go to law school. he was half hippy/ half yuppie. he played in many bluegrass bands in the 60s. i'm not sure if he started playing in Chicago, Berkeley or later when he moved to Los Angeles.

but it's been out of the sticks for a long time now.

― JasonD (JasonD), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 17:14 (10 years ago) Permalink

"Taken hold" ??-- my impression is that bluegrass (both on the festival circuit and on record) has for some time been a collaboration between urban/educated/intellectual folks who came to the music through the folk revival or revival-rooted institutions like college folk clubs, Rounder records, etc. and people who were from Appalachia and Ohio and the South and were around this sort of music their whole lives. It's not schematic that's easy to ridicule which is perhaps why people haven't seized on it.

The point about the microphones is interesting (it's definitely true BTW) because it points up that bluegrass rather than being the "traditional" (pre-modern) music of some people's conceptions, it's a music that developed in the context of radio and amplification and records and the great migration of midcentury (which included as many whites as blacks, though you don't tend to learn that in school) b/c of wartime industrial jobs and waves of agricultural depression in the South. (Also the depletion/mechanization of coal etc. in Appalachia.)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 17:59 (10 years ago) Permalink

Nigel Tufnel to thread!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:14 (10 years ago) Permalink

Good point, Tracer! I had totally forgot about that.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

I can't wait!!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

Double d8?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

Make it a triple. Are we all going opening night? I'm tempted.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

I love that you mention this, Amateurist. For some reason it had never occurred to me. I'm reading it and rereading it and it makes me smile.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:52 (10 years ago) Permalink

I totally can't tell if you're being sarcastic. It's like the time when I was 13 and these dudes asked me if I wanted to hang out with them downtown and I was all, long blank stare and then "Are you kidding?" and then they were like, "No."

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'm not being sarcastic. I mean, it's a really obvious thing that had just never consciously clicked with me.

I've never performed around one microphone -> I am not an authentic bluegrass musician

(Amateurist do you listen to much Doc Watson?)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:02 (10 years ago) Permalink

Also:

I haven't really played guitar in two-plus years -> I am not a musician at all anymore

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

I really like the "new-grass" movement that folks like Edgar Meyer and Bela Fleck have been spearheading; rather than coming off as exploiting the traditions of bluegrass (a style of music that is definitely very much rooted in "tradition"), they manage to bring those traditions into a sort-of world-stage environment where bluegrass and Euro-classical and jazz and celtic and all sorts of traditional musics from all over the Earth just sort of fuse together into a very natural unified style. Honestly, some of that stuff (like the Edgar Meyer/Yo Yo Ma colaboration) feels more "American" (in the 'melting pot' sense, that is) than most popular forms of American music.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

I understand what you mean, nickalicious, but I couldn't disagree more. With bluegrass, I don't think I can get over being a fundamentalist (probably why I detest the Boggs, a band seemingly made by robots for me to love).

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

I wouldn't call Fleck new-grass. He uses a banjo, but he seems more like new-jazz or new-Sting or something. More at home with John McLaughlin or Chick Corea than with Pine Island. Frankly the whole "melting pot" world-music aesthetic makes me queasy because in order to get these disparate parts to work and play well together I feel like the artists usually have to take out all the prickly, difficult, unco-optable bits and those are my favorite parts!

haha I see Yanc3y has pre-emptively called me on my fundamentalism

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:13 (10 years ago) Permalink

Ah, I like the Boggs. Not in a bluegrass or newgrass way at all though. More of a angsty 17 year old Ken Burns with a leather jacket kind of way. I like Split Lip Rayfield in a newgrass way.

And yes, that's my bosses entire thing with the traditional condenser mic bluegrass stuff. It's a historical element in the style of play.

― cprek (cprek), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

I can understand not seeing the Boggs as something other than bluegrass (cuz they really aren't real players -- I doubt they could make it past the parking lot of the Galax Bluegrass Fest), but they were billed to me as "this AMAZING bluegrass band that's perfect for you!" by a friend of mine who works with them. They were doomed from the start for me. (tho their second album is "Kid A with banjos" and I've heard bits of it and it sounds great, I must sheepishly admit)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:17 (10 years ago) Permalink

"I can understand seeing the Boggs as something other than bluegrass," it should read.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

I haven't heard the new one yet. I'll be looking for it. They were nice guys when they played down here.

― cprek (cprek), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:21 (10 years ago) Permalink

Well, the thing is with Bela Fleck is that he's got like two different sides to his career; there's the electrified jazzed out Flecktones style stuff, and then there's the entirely acoustic "newgrass" stuff (honestly, I'm quite certain the term "newgrass" was coined to describe what he & Edgar Meyer & Dave Grisman & such were doing) which is much more traditionally arranged instrumentally, but really only breaks from traditions in regards to the composition...it's based more on a bluegrass-moving-outwards template than a proggy-jazzers-plundering-bluegrass style. It helps that Bela actually comes from a bluegrass background, as opposed to a classical or jazz background. But, had I only been familiar with his Flecktones-style recordings, I would probably feel the same about it.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:25 (10 years ago) Permalink

(If not for Cprek's radio show, this would prob'ly be the first I'd ever heard of The Boggs. Me likey dem.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 19:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'm with Yancy on this one, although I will probably fall on my face repeatedly struggling to explain why. Most "newgrass" and all the fusoid turns in recent bluegrass leave me cold. This was brought home when Tony Trishka came to perform at my school. It was a high-concept concert, the concept being "the history of the banjo." It had a very "progressive" agenda i.e. oh how quaint where the banjo has been and ooh look where it's going -- "where it's going" apaprently being an unlistenable banjos-and-'lectric guitar rendition of "World Turning" by Fleetwood Mac.

What makes bluegrass bluegrass, as Alan Lomax pointed out long ago, is that it takes many of the raw melodic/instrumental/thematic materials of country music ca. 1920s/30s and increases the melodic activity of each instrument--and yes it places emphasis on virtuosity to an extent not seen before in the music. There is an incredible density of melodic material in one Bill Monroe mandolin solo, or Earl Scruggs banjo solo.

I think people like Trishka et al take this idea at face value and apply the same approach to a wider variety of material. Whereas for me it is those very raw materials--the early country music--that make bluegrass so interesting, and the bluegrass I like best is essentially one variation on them. Which is why the bluegrass I like best--in general, not as a rule--is from that time when it wasn't exactly a distinct genre, it was just one facet of country music. (Although Bill Monroe was always a bit of an anomaly on the Opry, even back in the late '30s when he first joined, mostly for the dignity he insisted upon in a sea of fake cowboys and minstrel stage pranksters and Hee Haw types.)

Ummm hmmm when I listen to some early bluegrass-as-bluegrass, like Bill Monroe and His Bluegrass Boys from the late '40s or Flatt and Scruffs from the '50s and '60s, I enjoy it but in my enjoyment I recognize the very things--the need for speed, the need to impress with melodic density, the extreme formalism of it all--that made it something of a dead end for the kids who took it up and wanted to make something "more" of it in the accepted expansive '60s/'70s fashion.

I want to pause to think about this some more before I run myself into a dead end.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 20:37 (10 years ago) Permalink

Also recommended to all despite some difficult passages is Robert Cantwell's Bluegrass Breakdown. He's actually quite a bit more sanguine about "newgrass" than I.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 20:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

New Grass Revival, kids. Sam Bush, John Cowan, Bela Fleck, Pat Flynn: these guys were what it was all about back in the day..

Actually, it's all about the lack of percussion; the mandolin generally keeps time.

I was taken to the Strawberry Bluegrass Festival when I was all of one year old, and the tradition has always been to listen to bluegrass on Saturday morning. Every Saturday morning. For 20 years now. It is SO ODD that the whole world thinks bluegrass is hip since 'O Brother'. Not good, not bad, just STRANGE. People tell me about this brand new Alison Krauss kid, and I have to say 'Yeah, I grew up with her. My dad has vinyl of hers from 1989!'. I come off as a hipper-than-thou jerk, but it's true... now my dad's the coolest kid on the block. Fads are SO ODD.

― derrick (derrick), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 22:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

Alison Krauss went platinum like five-six years ago!

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 22:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

good thread.

''Are some genres better off in obscurity?''

haven't heard any bluegrass but I can say that no genres are better off in obscurity. Even if it leads to the fusion type stuff that amateurist dislikes bcz I do think interesting music can come out if this 'obscure' music gets out there to the general public (even if it leads to yuppies getting hold of it, or more expensive festivals etc).

Someone's imagination can be fired up by listening to these things.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 16 April 2003 09:24 (10 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

bill monroe is back on the charts!

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 00:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

5 years pass...

Can anyone recommend some insane bluegrass (be it local bands or whatever). I was just thinking about a band called 'Snake Oil Medicine Show' that I would see back in my day (late 90's and early 00's) at hippie events (no relation to 'Old Crow Medicine Show').

― serious nonsense (CaptainLorax), Thursday, 8 July 2010 18:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

'Snake Oil Medicine Show' is obscure enough that I'm gonna have to find my old highschool friend and borrow his cd

A lot of these harvest festival type bands are going to die off in obscurity

― serious nonsense (CaptainLorax), Thursday, 8 July 2010 18:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

ahhhh shiz, it just popped up in Soulseek, sweet

― serious nonsense (CaptainLorax), Thursday, 8 July 2010 18:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't how insane any of it is, but there's been lots of talk about current bluegrass on the Rolling Country thread the past couple days, starting right about here (and scrolling down, through today at least):

Rolling Country 2010

― xhuxk, Thursday, 8 July 2010 20:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Split Lip Rayfield is my favorite punky bluegrass band. They play faster than any hardcore band I ever saw!

― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Thursday, 8 July 2010 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

more sixties & seventies bluegrass recommendations please.
i am familiar with most of the stuff on this thread and sort of want to hear nothing but bluegrass lately. my faves include the stanleys of course, bill monroe, the lily brothers, the church brothers, dillards, mike auldridge, tut taylor, norman blake (i guess he's not really bluegrass?)...

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:47 (10 months ago) Permalink

for years i have listened to much more old-time & mountain music than bluegrass, but now i am getting the itch for bluegrass and western swing both.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:48 (10 months ago) Permalink

oh, and i love john hartford a lot also.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:49 (10 months ago) Permalink

the zone where bluegrass fuses with cosmic cowboy stuff is very intriguing to me. hartford & the dillards both get into this.
i got a great record by the country gentlemen the other day with this song on it --

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:50 (10 months ago) Permalink

i want to own more volumes of the "early days of bluegrass" series on rounder. i have only a few of them.. tell me about bill clifton. i like harmony singing.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:51 (10 months ago) Permalink

I'm loving that Country Gentlemen clip.

maybe you'd like the two Any Old Time String Band albums (compiled together here). sort of a melange of bluegrass, old-time, Cajun, and country blues. the song selections are a little "scholarly" but in a fun way. lots of harmonizing.

also search Jim Smoak and any '60s or '70s Osborne Brothers album.

― starfish succulents (unregistered), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 02:04 (10 months ago) Permalink

― starfish succulents (unregistered), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 02:10 (10 months ago) Permalink

The Osbornes' Bluegrass Concerto is pretty out there (I could only find the title track on myspace of all places). it's funny to hear a grandiose bluegrass-classical fusion from an act that started out doing straight-up traditional stuff in the mid-'50s.

― starfish succulents (unregistered), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 02:20 (10 months ago) Permalink

really great initial post (is y@ncey still around?) & ian great country gentlemen tune

― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 02:24 (10 months ago) Permalink

i used to have an any old time string band record, but i think i sold it. it might still be around though. gotta explore the osbourne brothers more. and i want to find more del mccoury records.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 02:56 (10 months ago) Permalink

BLUEGRASS FEVER CONTINUES.
SELL ME YOUR "EARLY DAYS OF BLUEGRASS" LPS

― one dis leads to another (ian), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:50 (10 months ago) Permalink

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