It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back

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In an effort to not derail an already derailed thread I am going to move this from the canon thread.

So it's an old adage among a lot of music critics and pollsters that PE released one or maybe two of the greatest hip hop records ever and blah blah blah. Okay, so here is the question: why if this band was so great and their recordings so monumental did so few hip hop groups follow their lead? Excepting maybe some of the Def Jux stuff I can't think of too many hip hoppers whose sound bears even the slightest resemblance to PE. Excepting Dead Prez most hip hoppers have completely avoided the sort of in your face politicking which PE were famous for. The most enduring element of PE in hip hop is that of Flavor Flav's comic jester figure an element which while vital to the group, hardly seemed at the time like it would be their biggest contribution to music (although I guess they were progenitor of sorts of rap rock, ick).

I hesitate to use the word influence, but the question really has to be asked: other than their perenial place on critic's polls what was Public Enemy's lasting effect on hip hop?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:01 (10 years ago) Permalink

ethan and i figured out that PE's major contribution to the world of music in the 21st century has been techno-rock ala (late) prodigy, death in vegas, crystal method. we were split on whether this was a good thing or a bad thing, but i think you can probably guess who took which side.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

Yeah definitely in terms of UK dance music (hardcore/trip hop/big beat) PE sonic imprint was huge.

I can't believe Ethan likes Death in Vegas though haha

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:09 (10 years ago) Permalink

it's funny because what brit dance music really seemed to take from PE was the density and the sense of velocity, which - if you're well versed in hardcore and jungle & you haven't listened to PE in ages - will trick you into think that PE is denser and faster than they actually were (fear... is the only one that's really THAT dense or THAT fast.) and even then follow the leader-era eric b productions seem like a much bigger influence in retrospect, even just measured in samples and soundbytes.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

Okay, so here is the question: why if this band was so great and their recordings so monumental did so few hip hop groups follow their lead?

OK, so I am no hip-hop-fan, and all that, but I still think I have the obvious answer:

Because Public Enemy was rapping about boring stuff such as politics, anti-misoginy, even anti-violence to some extent. At the same time, NWA came along, and they came up with a lot more interesting themes for most average youngster, that is, crime, bitches, drugs, violence. A lot of kewl things that all kewl kids loved to piss off parents and teachers with.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:25 (10 years ago) Permalink

well, yes this is true geir; i mean, this is a very basic theory that i think everyone accepts, but i think alex meant more that EVERY hip-hop group seemed to be greasing PE's ass between 88-91...was it all just lip service?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

I dunno about lasting effect, but early NWA and Cypress Hill have some Bomb Squad like production elements (and in the case of early solo Ice Cube, the bomb squad itself). If PE's musical influence dropped fast, that's probably just because of the G-Bomb of Dre, which benefitted from conquering MTV and becoming a much more commercial (and yet still rebellious) sound. Plus Arrested Development and Naughty By Nature kinda popped out those drum loops.

I love this album, but I also love what Chuck called it: It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Make Us Multi-Platinum.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, but underground hip hop especially flourished during the G Funk era and I can't think of any groups (excepting Shut Up and Dance haha) who even tried to sound like PE.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think anyone who's ever donned the "conscious rapper" mantle is buying into PE's mythos/"influence" as established by "Nation of Millions", and that includes an AWFUL lot of people. The effects have filtered and trickled down through all sorts of paths - whether it's the boho-righteousness of Black Star or the Roots (who *definitely* count PE as their major inspiration). I hear "Nation of Millions" in Outkast's "Bombs Over Baghdad"... I really don't think their influence is that hard to spot, it's just that rap has mutated so quickly, more recent trends (Dre, Puffy, Timbaland, Wu-Tang, Neptunes) have more blatant copyists.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

PE asked too much of its listeners. Peeps don't want to listen to Black CNN, they want tunes. And Flav--was he a caricature or should we take him seriously? Too much. Plus the West Coast sound was (and is) just cooler.

(Forgive me for completely talking out of my ass here; I'm drunk)

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

I can't speak much about underground rap in the G Funk era. I was living in Indiana (and later midstate Pennsylvannia) and a teenager. But MTV and Spin never really made me aware of much underground rap that wasn't too G-ish, except the more Tribe Called Quest influenced type.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:37 (10 years ago) Permalink

Musically, PE and NWA don't sound that different from each other in my ears. The difference was lyrical only at the time.
It wasn't until Dr. Dre came up with G-Funk a couple years later that hip-hop became very different musically from what most acts had been doing in the 80s. At least my impression (and some of those G-Funk albums are actually among very few hip-hop albums I am actually able to stomach listening to, except not even understanding what the lyrics are about due to extensive use of slang, so I do know the stylistic differences)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:37 (10 years ago) Permalink

and another thing - if we're discussing why the "Nation of Millions" SOUND hasn't been widely replicated - you've got to look at how the sample-heavy technique they relied on was basically legislated out of existence for most of the '90s. It's only with recent technology that groups could even begin to think about replicating that sonic density without samples. And let's not forget that also the samples themselves - those reference points - were a big part of PE's overall sound and persona. Once it's illegal (or financially impossible) to sample the Wattstax soundtrack anymore, that reference point disappears from the musical chain of influence altogether...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:37 (10 years ago) Permalink

The "relaxed" stylistic approach of De La Soul didn't last long either, did it?

In spite of this, their debut album is still one of those hip-hop albums that are part of the "canon".

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

samples and soundbanks != "their sound"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

Maybe when G-funk made PE sound outdated (not to mention PE's own stasis and Cypress Hill & House Of Pain getting frathappy), soft became the new loud.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

and then Wu-Tang introduced D&D fever into the undergound.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:40 (10 years ago) Permalink

actually i think premier introduced D&D fever into the underground

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

Geir, De La's imprint (both verbal and production style) is clearly hearable across all sorts of underground hip hop records basically since their debut.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think Iron Maiden introduced D&D fever to the underground

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

my jokes are wasted on you lot

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

the point remains that we need James Brown drum loops, feedback squeals, fierce pulpit pounding and some yeeeeahhh bbooyyyeeees STAT in rap these days. At least I do.

Oh, shit, I just invoked Zach De La Rocha!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

the point remains that we need James Brown drum loops, feedback squeals, fierce pulpit pounding and some yeeeeahhh bbooyyyeeees STAT in rap these days. At least I do.

And you hip-hop fans accuse us Britpop/trad rock/pop fans of being "derivative"? :-)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

am i the only one who doesn't think of pe as a straightforward black cnn political thing? chuck's lyrics are pretty f*kin' abstract on that record.

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

haha i think anthony just answered the question really

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

Geir, I've never accused anyone of being derivative. At least I've never implied such a quality is bad.

I don't know if I'd say Chuck's lyrics are abstract (at least not compared, to Fugazi's allegedly profound lyrics), but the CNN allusion indeed isn't very evocative. Hell, he's closer to a bizarro-world Fox News.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:51 (10 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I wuz gonna suggest RATM. But I couldn't bring myself to say it. But certainly Morello's whole guitar noise thing was an attempt to replicate the JB as sampled by Bomb Squad sound.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

And of course, you know, politics and shit.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:11 (10 years ago) Permalink

This board is reaching a new low of not getting it.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:13 (10 years ago) Permalink

then illuminate, hombre!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:21 (10 years ago) Permalink

Oh he's just being petulant.

Btw Alex yr supposed to write that ""getting it"".

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:24 (10 years ago) Permalink

Try reading and thinking and then writing, Anthony.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:25 (10 years ago) Permalink

Oh, shit, I just invoked Zach De La Rocha!

*whimpers* MUST you invoke Satan like that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:26 (10 years ago) Permalink

The old "you don't know and I'm not gonna tell you" argument again, Alex?

And yes, Ned, as long as Satan shrilly screams "YOU CALL THIS JUSTICE???" and then hops up and down angrily, I shalt invoke he! Blargh!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:29 (10 years ago) Permalink

Ah, I think Flav is great. Those records, esp. "911," and "Can't Do" are so much fun to listen to. I don't really like Chuck D. all that much.

― Jess Hill (jesshill), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

Well, the influence question is always a problem -- a lot of the most influential people or albums mostly influenced a lot of crap (whatever you think of Sgt. Pepper's, it was certainly influential, and largely not in a good way).

I think PE's sonic attack is pretty much unreplicated and probably unreplicatable. On the other hand, I've read testimonials to PE from all sorts of people, from gangstas to Def Jux types -- just because they don't sound like "Black Steel" doesn't mean they didn't get juiced by PE at some point in their life. But PE was never mainstream hip-hop -- most significantly, they weren't particularly funky. They were the noisiest, rockiest great hip-hop band ever. They just happened to be amazing, which made them stand out way out of proportion to their place in the hip-hop spectrum. They were an anomaly, a branch off the main trunk, and they defined that branch so completely that it's no surprise not many other people have climbed out on it.

That said, my favorite PE story is from when I was in college. I was home at Christmas break, and my conservative (in all respects) grandma was visiting. I had "Nation of Millions" on in the background while I was doing dishes or something, and my grandmother was sitting at the kitchen table doing a crossword table. I noticed she was tapping her feet, and at a certain point she looked up and said, "They sure do have rhythm, don't they?" Taking into account the obvious racism of the comment (and the irony of the racism in that context), I still had to give a big nod to the Bomb Squad -- they reached my grandma.

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'm not quite sure how "they weren't particularly funky" and "They sure do have rhythm, don't they?" can co-exist together, but that may be my damage.

I don't think their sonics were unreplicatable as much as you got the definite impression that basically no African-American hip hoppers (over or underground) seemed interested in following PE's lead. And the question which no one seems to be able to answer here (and no one really seems to want to try) is WHY?!?! What was it about a) their particular strand of Black Nationalism that fell out of favor and b) the idea of making in your face uncompromising radical music (whether they did or not isn't the question) that virtually no subsequent black hip hop act has even tried to follow in those footsteps?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:49 (10 years ago) Permalink

Shakey Mo Collier's comment is dead on. By 'Armageddon 91' the lawyers had stepped in and made the Bomb Squad's production financially impossible to release legally. When you suddenly have to pay $20,000 and a chunk of royalties just for a 3 seconds of James Brown on 'Nighttrain', that's probably several times the original budget for 'Millions', you kind of have to give up on that whole approach; even Public Enemy couldn't sound like Public Enemy anymore. I blame it on the lawyers: ever since then, sampling in mainstream music has limited itself essentially to the easily licensed 'cover version' approach sugar-coated by dr dre.

There is an amazing interview with Chuck D and Hank Shocklee in the latest issue of Stay Free about their sampling method and why they gave it up. It's the first interview I've ever seen where they bring any of this shit up, and I can't believe this interview hasn't made more waves...

― brindle, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:52 (10 years ago) Permalink

Peter Shapiro's great 'rough guide to hip hop' has a great line comparing Public Enemy's critical lauding and NWA's villification back in their day to rock critics falling all over themselves exclaiming that prog rock was the future in the early 70's, when in fact it was Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin slowly taking over the kid stereos... oh, well, uh, ha ha.

― milton, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:52 (10 years ago) Permalink

Alex in SF, it's problably some mix of what's in Brindle's post and the opening scene from "Clockers."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:54 (10 years ago) Permalink

Sigh, Shakey Mo is NOT dead on, because it is possible to make music that SOUNDS LIKE Public Enemy did without making music the WAY Public Enemy did.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:54 (10 years ago) Permalink

the idea of making in your face uncompromising radical music /=sounding like public enemy

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

They had rhythm, but they weren't funky. I mean, the beats were hard, and you could definitely dance to it -- as I recall from college parties -- but they didn't have much swing. It's very four-on-the-floor.

But to the other questions, I think those things were never exactly in favor or fashion, before or after PE. It's just that there was one great radical Black Nationalist sonically visionary hip-hop band, and they were it.

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'll argue a hardline approach and say it's not quite possible to make music that has the same impact as Public Enemy. First of all, the sounds are connected to their sampled sources; it's fragmented, but you can still hear all those dozens of other songs bouncing around in there. They are references, the recycling & juxtaposition itself makes a point.

It's true that many producers have made a point of recording/engineering their own sounds and then sampling/arranging them. this is basically what timbaland's doing, first level sound design. but it's a different thing.

I dunno, those records sounded like doom when they came out and I couldn't believe they were popular, alex your basic point does ring true in that people could still be making ragingly dense wall-of-noise hip hop with other means, but they aren't, mainly because... people like their pop music easy going and pretty. we won't be seeing records quite like those early pe records anytime soon.

― brindle, Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:13 (10 years ago) Permalink

It's just that there was one great radical Black Nationalist sonically visionary hip-hop band, and they were it.

More like they were the one great radical Black Nationalist sonically visionary hip-hop band to find a large audience.

― hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:22 (10 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, that's kinda what I was trying to say. PE were a product of a place and time -- in the U.S., the first hip-hop generation was coming of age, there was a lot of African-American anger coming out of the Reagan years, the Cold War was collapsing, the economy was starting to sputter -- and all that maybe allowed some room in (or at least near) the mainstream culture for more radical voices. And musically, there was obviously an appetite for (uh, destruction?) harder, noisier stuff than what was mostly dominating the charts at the time. PE and GNR were both part of the lead-up to Nirvana and NWA, really -- and those were the two bands who really set the template for the next many years.

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:25 (10 years ago) Permalink

I agree with you there. I can't imagine anyone making a movie like Spike Lee's Malcolm X now, for some reason. But there were other interesting black nationalist hiphop groups, just none nearly as popular as Public Enemy.

― hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

Or as great, I would postulate. It wasn't just their nationalism, it was the whole package -- the play between Chuck and Flav, the unbelievable depth of the production (I still find weird new things in their, especially on "Fear of a Black Planet"), the conceptual side of it (the graphics, the S1W, even the always-dubious presence of Griff). They were a band imitating a social movement.

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

Was BDP a Black Nationalist group? (This is a v. interesting thread BTW.)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

Apologies for using a word like "postulate." I hate that debate-society crap.

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:36 (10 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 364 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

was contend making a point or just expressing the same taste he always does there

― Barack 2 Chainz Obama (some dude), Friday, July 20, 2012 8:56 AM (1 hour ago)

well, i was trying to make the point that canon, in its current, informal incarnation, remains both solid and influential. this seems to be true despite big changes in tastes, values and media over the past few decades, and despite the fact that the established canon and its promoters have been subject to aggressive interrogation. i don't accept that canon is weaker in relation to music than to film and literature. it's different, sure, but the landscape in question is no less well mapped out. while popular taste may be as big a part of what establishes canon as critical opinion, one of the principal features of canon is durability. once enshrined, songs, albums and artists tend to stay stuck there for a good, long while. i love exile on main street, but i have to believe that its continued elevation in the rock canon is as much a product of its canonization as anything else.

i don't think i'm making a big or controversial point here, but that was the essence of my argument. i also spun out into pointless griping about the retrograde features of the late 20th century pop canon, but only cuz that's what i do.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 18:12 (10 months ago) Permalink

i was just joking around dude cause you never seem to provide much evidence that your taste contradicts the "rock albums by white guys are the best" philosophy you mocked

― Barack 2 Chainz Obama (some dude), Friday, 20 July 2012 18:21 (10 months ago) Permalink

this was not written by an intern.

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/11/the_ten_bands_i_will_be_forced_to_listen_to_in_hell_salpart//

― scott seward, Friday, 20 July 2012 18:30 (10 months ago) Permalink

does anyone still read salon? i have no idea.

― scott seward, Friday, 20 July 2012 18:36 (10 months ago) Permalink

haha a good chunk of that piece is clearly mitigated by the author proclaiming himself to be a total asshole who is going to hell

― PITILESS LIVE SHOW (DJP), Friday, 20 July 2012 18:37 (10 months ago) Permalink

While it’s true that one man’s hell band may be another man’s rockin’ ceiling poster, I think we can all agree that that this whiny, falsely poetic, utterly self-satisfied unit, slated to ruin every wedding from now until the name “Duritz” is struck from the connubial lexicon by writ of post-apocalyptic parliament, is an obvious candidate for The Dark Prince’s most damned playlist. They are melody made torment, choruses made grief, hooks of despondency and woe, a steamy squirt of maudlin pandering.

And I thought I was verbose.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 20 July 2012 18:50 (10 months ago) Permalink

this guy is the voltron that forms when 5 middle-aged ilxors unite

― da croupier, Friday, 20 July 2012 18:53 (10 months ago) Permalink

Honour the hellfire.

― Trewster Dare (jaymc), Friday, 20 July 2012 19:00 (10 months ago) Permalink

terry adams from nrbq is in my store right now and he just told me that he hasn't heard a bob dylan album since blonde on blonde came out. he's got bangs and meltzer beat by a mile!

― scott seward, Friday, 20 July 2012 19:01 (10 months ago) Permalink

xp Well, that article is hits # 3 and 4 of only 83 for "fauxllectual" so there's that.

― Ignite the seven canons (Ówen P.), Friday, 20 July 2012 19:03 (10 months ago) Permalink

i was just joking around dude cause you never seem to provide much evidence that your taste contradicts the "rock albums by white guys are the best" philosophy you mocked

lol, yeah, it doesn't

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 19:05 (10 months ago) Permalink

i don't object to people liking whatever, though. do object to the crushing over-representation of certain voices in the canon-building process.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 19:27 (10 months ago) Permalink

that's good. you should still walk the walk and listen to more, though.

― Barack 2 Chainz Obama (some dude), Friday, 20 July 2012 19:32 (10 months ago) Permalink

but i like blue oyster cult a lot. i mean a lot a lot. you don't understand.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 19:33 (10 months ago) Permalink

i can't argue with that.

― Barack 2 Chainz Obama (some dude), Friday, 20 July 2012 19:37 (10 months ago) Permalink

salon piece is so OTT hyperbolic it doesn't really bother. even when he misrepresents the Beach Boys.

― the alternate vision continues his vision quest! (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 20 July 2012 19:41 (10 months ago) Permalink

one of the principal features of canon is durability. once enshrined, songs, albums and artists tend to stay stuck there for a good, long while. i love exile on main street, but i have to believe that its continued elevation in the rock canon is as much a product of its canonization as anything else.

Is the argument, then, that its reinforcement through the years as canon material has been partly obligatory?

― timellison, Friday, 20 July 2012 19:50 (10 months ago) Permalink

i'm listening to nas right now

i don't know if i'm enforcing or upsetting the canon

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 20 July 2012 20:14 (10 months ago) Permalink

is that actually any good...?

― the alternate vision continues his vision quest! (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 20 July 2012 20:17 (10 months ago) Permalink

perhaps incorrectly assuming you were listening to the new one...

― the alternate vision continues his vision quest! (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 20 July 2012 20:18 (10 months ago) Permalink

um kinda? it's something! nas is insane. it's super overblown and odd in a way i can't articulate.

but i guess he's been crazy for a long time.

i mean it's not as good as his best ones.

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 20 July 2012 20:22 (10 months ago) Permalink

Is the argument, then, that its reinforcement through the years as canon material has been partly obligatory?

― timellison, Friday, July 20, 2012 12:50 PM (23 minutes ago)

i'd probably say both necessary and self-perpetuating. obligatory in the sense that, once granted, canon doesn't rescind its esteem quickly. again, i'm not trying to make any novel argument about the nature of canon, just saying the canon of pop significance constructed between the 60s and 90s still seems to be quite influential. the best anyone can do is to glue new bits onto its existing body, perhaps at the same rate that time and indifference pry others loose (the way punk and new wave seemed to replace elvis and the icons of the early rock & roll era). this canon, "the canon", is not easily replaced or subverted, and it doesn't seem to have been rendered irrelevant by digital democratization.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 20:29 (10 months ago) Permalink

doh, i should say the 90s seemed to occasion/accompany a gradual diminishment in the importance attached to the early rock era. rap, boy bands, indie rock, grunge: wasn't much connection from the present back. punk & new wave folks were obviously very closely connected to early rockers, the 50s in general.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 20:32 (10 months ago) Permalink

But you were talking specifically about Exile on Main Street and I didn't know if you were speculating about its continued canon presence as an example of obligatory deference as opposed to genuine current taste.

It's #11 on the Pitchfork '70s list.

― timellison, Friday, 20 July 2012 20:55 (10 months ago) Permalink

I kind of see most early punk as more connected to non-hippie 60s rock (e.g. girl groups, garage bands) than to 50s rock and roll, actually.

xpost

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 20 July 2012 20:56 (10 months ago) Permalink

oh, i don't know that there's a difference. or rather, i wasn't intending to make a distinction. the two are interlinked, in that taste shapes canon just as canon shapes taste.

the most visible and codified aspects of canon are often out of step with actual popular and/or critical taste (the rock and roll hall of fame is an example of this), while our understanding of canon typically lags behind its actual formation.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 21:03 (10 months ago) Permalink

that was xp to tim. this to sund4r:

yeah, that's probably fair. still, i do think that the likes of chuck berry and elvis loomed large over the punk/new wave era, either as direct or as odious posterity. beyond musical influence, many aspects of late 70s and early-mid 80s culture seemed like a deliberate response to images and ideals of midcentury modernity.

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 21:09 (10 months ago) Permalink

"...either as direct influences or as odious posterity."

― contenderizer, Friday, 20 July 2012 21:10 (10 months ago) Permalink

I think Bangs' '81 ballot, or thoughts about 1979, needs to be placed in the context of his life. Just about everyone who writes about pop music for a long time (Christgau being the obvious exception, and even he has his moments) hits a point where disengagement/frustration starts to creep in. Generally, re-engagement happens soon enough. The timeline is different for everybody. My guess is that Bangs' '81 ballot was just a stop along the way, and had he lived, he would have found lots to enthuse about soon enough.

Respectfully disagree on this point, Clemenza. Bangs's alienation from it all, in the last couple years of his life especially, seemed pretty deep-rooted and consistent. It was a theme he returned to often (comes out even more in some of the interviews he gave at the time), and a few pet artists aside, he really did seem disgusted with the direction the culture in general was headed in (his oft-repeated refrain was that everything had turned into People magazine). It's all (useless) conjecture, of course, but given the ferocity with which he made such claims, again and again, I kind of doubt his feelings on this would have been reversible. Though sure, there likely would always have been a band or two around that he was interested in (but enough to compel him to remain a "rock critic"? I doubt it). Worth remembering, maybe, that there were a lot of first-generation critics around this time, less vocal perhaps in their alienation than Bangs or Meltzer, who dropped off the scene somewhere around this time also, i.e., probably half the contributors in Stranded.

My main point: I don't think Bangs's '81 ballot (which at the time was the funniest thing I'd ever read in my life up to that point) was any kind of aberration, or a "stop along the way."

― Chickie Levitt, Saturday, 28 July 2012 16:53 (9 months ago) Permalink

Ah I think Bangs wouldve probably cone back around to hardcore after SST started getting weird/ambitious; I'm sure he'd have been an avid Meat Puppets/Butthole Surfers fan...

― seapluspluspunk (loves laboured breathing), Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:04 (9 months ago) Permalink

Hell, he probably wouldve been a fan of Public Enemy had he lived

― seapluspluspunk (loves laboured breathing), Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:08 (9 months ago) Permalink

Well played, Levitt, well played.

All conjecture, yes. Bangs had just turned 33 when he put together his '81 ballot. Let me throw this out to anyone who's, say, 38 or older (33 + five extra years): a) how many of you reached a point where you felt like you weren't as enthusiastic about music as you used to be, or that you were losing touch with newer stuff, or that you'd lapsed into a kind of get-off-my-lawn pessimism about music in general, and b) if that's true, how many of you found your way back to some degree?--some new band or album (or maybe even one you'd missed somewhere along the way) came out of nowhere and surprised you, you turned on the radio one day and was surprised to hear a bunch of stuff you liked, etc. My guess is that the first would be true of many (it happens to me every now and again), the second true of almost as many. I realize the '81 ballot caught Bangs at a moment of intense pessimism, but I still think that would have abated over time.

Is that true about the Stranded contributors? I know many stopped writing about music for a living, but didn't many just go on to other kinds of writing--e.g., Maslin, Tosches, Carson--or into teaching, like Winner? I bet music is still a pretty big part of all their lives, and wouldn't be surprised if they keep up reasonably well on their own time.

― clemenza, Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:16 (9 months ago) Permalink

I get the usual exhaustion and cynicism around this time of year but the best way out of this slough, I've found, is more work. Reviewing 10 to 12 putative pop singles a week is great exercise.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 28 July 2012 18:14 (9 months ago) Permalink

about to turn 38 btw

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 28 July 2012 18:14 (9 months ago) Permalink

I guess I believe there's a difference between the -- awkward trying to phrase this -- the objects, or artifacts, of music, and music as a totality (to employ a Meltzerism here, though I think I'm using it differently than he does). Or between "continuing to listen to and enjoy music" (which everyone to some degree does, including Meltzer) and living-breathing the stuff or viewing the world through that particular prism, etc. (which, granted, NO one does entirely; it just becomes less possible to do so as you reach a certain age, though Christgau probably comes closer than anyone). This division is hardly definitive (I'm not even sure where I would place myself, truth be told), but I think to some degree it does exist, and I still see Bangs as coming out on the side of person-who-can-never-entirely-let-go-of-it but nothing at all like person-who-still-organizes-his-life-around-it. He would've been caught up by various bands and records. I have a harder time believing he would've felt like he was really part of it in any significant way.

My point re: Stranded is that many of those contributors, for whatever reason(s), made a conscious decision in the late '70s or early '80s to no longer devote their lives to writing about music. I can't say why or what many of them have chosen to do instead. To me, that fact in and of itself still kind of ties in with what I'm saying about the "totality." Maybe?

― Chickie Levitt, Saturday, 28 July 2012 18:16 (9 months ago) Permalink

Let me throw this out to anyone who's, say, 38 or older (33 + five extra years): a) how many of you reached a point where you felt like you weren't as enthusiastic about music as you used to be, or that you were losing touch with newer stuff, or that you'd lapsed into a kind of get-off-my-lawn pessimism about music in general, and b) if that's true, how many of you found your way back to some degree?--some new band or album (or maybe even one you'd missed somewhere along the way) came out of nowhere and surprised you, you turned on the radio one day and was surprised to hear a bunch of stuff you liked, etc.

I'm 40. I definitely reached a point quite a while ago where I felt completely alienated from chart pop (a category which, for me, encompasses R&B and the vast majority of hip-hop as well as Katy Perry, Carly Rae Jepsen, et al.). Not only did I not think it was "speaking to me," but I found what it was conveying to be actively offensive and pernicious. I felt like pop music was making people stupider, because I felt stupider when I listened to it. So I stopped paying attention to it; just cut it completely out of my life to the greatest extent possible. I don't listen to the radio, ever; I don't have cable so I don't watch MTV; I ignore reviews of hip-hop, R&B and pop albums; etc., etc. I started focusing on the stuff that still excited me - mostly metal, jazz, and old hard rock from the late '60s and early '70s. That stuff inspires me, so that's what I listen to, think about, and write about. That, and Japanese and Korean pop, which is musically fun and lyrically incomprehensible to me, so ignorable on that score.

― 誤訳侮辱, Saturday, 28 July 2012 18:36 (9 months ago) Permalink

Funny -- I'm the opposite. I've tried to like K-pop and apart from a few glorious moments it's come up short.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 28 July 2012 18:38 (9 months ago) Permalink

i still live and breathe music but not so much new music. i just don't seek it out as much. i don't have cable. i don't drive that much and that's usually where i'll hear new pop music. i'll check out stuff on youtube. but new cds and records are just too expensive to buy all the time and they don't really make singles anymore. so i end up buying old stuff. but i still live and breathe music.

but uh i don't write about music that much and i don't make a living doing it! so maybe i should shut up. i think about it all the time though.

― scott seward, Saturday, 28 July 2012 18:53 (9 months ago) Permalink

In case anyone's wondering how Public Enemy gave way to Lester Bangs, you've got to scroll back about a hundred posts--there's an NPR intern in there somewhere, and it went from there.

What we need to resolve the Bangs question is for the dead Lester to interview...the dead Lester, like he did with Hendrix. I know what Levitt means about the all-consuming dividing line, but I just have to believe that Bangs was inevitably going to find his way back to the other side, although I'm not sure in what form. (He was in the process of setting out to write his first novel, right?) He was an obsessive--he seemed like such a different creature than Maslin and most of the other Stranded contributors. One development that seemed made-to-order for Bangs was file-sharing. He wrote that one thing once about wanting to own every record ever made--"catacombs" of them, I think he said. Depending upon how attached to the physical object he was--he did say he wanted to be surrounded by all these records, so maybe the digital equivalent was a non-starter--file-sharing would have been about the best chance he'd ever get.

I'm 50. Still cling to the old records, still hear a decent enough amount of new stuff that excites me to keep me semi-engaged. I try really hard to avoid concluding that the stupid pop music of today is any stupider than the stupid pop music I loved in 1972 or 1987. Not hearing too too much of it probably helps in that regard.

― clemenza, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:00 (9 months ago) Permalink

yeah i should say that my love for pop and rap and r&b and stuff like that on the radio hasn't diminished at all. i love lots of new stuff i've heard i just don't listen to it a LOT. whereas i will listen to hundreds and hundreds of old records (that i've never heard)every year.

― scott seward, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:16 (9 months ago) Permalink

i think writing about music every week or month for years though...yeah, i couldn't do it i don't think. not full-time. i would get burnt. i'm sure of it.

― scott seward, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:22 (9 months ago) Permalink

unless you are a he-man like charles nelson eddy.

― scott seward, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:23 (9 months ago) Permalink

that really should be his middle name...

― scott seward, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:23 (9 months ago) Permalink

my new neighbors' Wifi network is called Fear of a Black Planet

― Euler, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:28 (9 months ago) Permalink

it takes a WPA2 password to hold us back

― Euler, Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:29 (9 months ago) Permalink

I don't write for a living, for better or worse. But an undeniable, welcome consequence of aging is I don't want to own every record or single ever produced; that appetite wanes every year. I'll still get jags though: on Thursday night I wanted to d/l every old Siouxsie album.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 28 July 2012 20:36 (9 months ago) Permalink

scott and clem, if you want to hear and write about new music without buying it I'd love to see you both contribute to the Singles Jukebox.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 28 July 2012 20:37 (9 months ago) Permalink

With few exceptions I have been behind the times my whole life on music, although digging backwards all the time I sometimes end up with a surprising affinity for the present. Mostly I'm out of it, and would make a befuddled, easily ridiculed current-music-reviewer.

― Vic Perry, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:11 (9 months ago) Permalink

Thanks, Alfred--Kogan mentioned the same about a year back. But, echoing Vic's post above, my out-of-touchness would be a problem. Even in my year-end ballot last year, I wrote something about some Canadian band being ninth-generation Beastie Boys that could only have been written by someone not paying close enough attention to realize they were in fact day-old LMFAO. Still love the song I was writing about, but six months later the botched comparison makes me roll my eyes.

― clemenza, Sunday, 29 July 2012 01:37 (9 months ago) Permalink

Whenever I start thinking about this subject (not PE but current pop) I always end up asking myself the same question: how important is originality anymore?

― KitevsPill, Sunday, 29 July 2012 15:55 (9 months ago) Permalink

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