Zappa - C/D

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Now, maybe this has been covered, bit it seems to be a pretty divisive issue around here. I hate the guy. Can't fucking stand him.

Now let's see some good ol' fashioned rock crit brawlin'! GO!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 07:57 (10 years ago) Permalink

Why don't you start by telling us why you hate him?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

I find him kitschy. I find him gimmicky. I find that he meets almost none of my requirements for good music. He just shits on everything -- good taste, restraint, the world in general. Where's the music? Where's the part that supposed to touch me in any way other than on some pure intellectual, ironic level? You can combine the two, you know. I mean, maybe YOU know, but Zappa didn't.

He's kinda the Ween of his time, I think. I don't hate Ween near as much as I hate Zappa, but maybe it's only because they're funnier.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

Hmm. Everything you say is more or less true for the bulk of what I've heard (which is NOT MUCH of an extremely dense catalog). I always hated him for most of those reasons myself.

I finally broke down and bought Freak Out because it's so, y'know, canonical. 'S pretty entertaining for its time; good satirical stuff which at that juncture certainly needed to be said. I think it's great to have a fellow like that around throwing tomatoes. Not sure who the contemporary equivalent would be; certainly not Ween. Maybe Kid606 or something actually. Of course, I hate Kid606.

I have Hot Rats which is a largely instrumental/jam record that is actually quite good; none of the short, knotty arrangements of the early Mothers stuff and none of the sanctimoniousness. Whatever is in this record has made me curious about checking out more, but I've never done so. "Willie the Pimp" featuring Beefheart is just a plain scream.

Anyway, for all the hubbub surrounding this guy, he strikes me as pretty harmless. No doubt the legend outweighs any real contribution - beyond the expansive diaspora of sidemen - for whatever strange reason. And it is strange that he's so well known; we're talking about a guy whose only stab at the pop world was "Valley Girl". What a bizarre record, and people bought it! It was like "Loser" only ten years earlier! Anyway, he captured a certain zeitgeist and it sold.

On the sidemen tip ... Little Feat. Stone classic. First album is one of my favorite seventies records.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

I dunno....saying "I Hate Zappa" is like saying "I Hate Rock'n'Roll!" I mean, the man made about seventy studio albums of remarkably diverse music -- surely there's *SOMETHING* in his oeuvre that wouldn't offend your ear, no?

I've only ever owned a couple of Zappa albums in my day, but the ones I have I'm pretty damn fond of. Witness my thread:

Frank Zappa's JOE'S GARAGE: Classic or Dud?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:37 (10 years ago) Permalink

"Willin'" is one of my favorite songs.

(Watch me close, and you'll catch me saying this about ten million different songs.)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

I dunno....saying "I Hate Zappa" is like saying "I Hate Rock'n'Roll!"

Like Diamond, I'm not familiar with the man's entire catalog. But that is a patently ridiculous statement. Something about what little Zappa I have heard hurts my ears, but that does not translate to my hating rock and roll.

I know, I know... hyperbole and all that.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

i really love zappa my favorite albums are
Roxy and Elsewhere
Chunga's Revenge
Just Anotehr Band from LA

if theres one song to download its 'Magic Finger'

― chaki (chaki), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

Alrighty, lemme clarrify. Saying "I Hate Rock'n'Roll" is a ridiculous statement, because "rock'n'roll" encompases everything from bands like Fleetwood Mac through bands like the Butthole Surfers (and I think you'd agree, there's a lot of stylistic real estate between those names).

Like a genre unto himself, Zappa has done everything and dabbled in so many different styles of music that to condemn everything he's ever done seems like sort've a hugely sweeping statement.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

I didn't mean to say that "If you hate Zappa, you Hate Rock'n'Roll!" I wasn't equating them, merely establishing a parallel. The very name "Zappa" has become a catch all for the myriad styles he engaged in, much like "Rock'n'Roll" is a catch all for all of its many styles.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

You have to forgive me, because I have limited time, resources, and inclination. I will not ever check out everything he's done. If he's a genre unto himself, he's a genre that I've already decided I don't like.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

Ok.. here's one other thing that I forgot to mention..

I also knew these dudes in college who were way into Zappa. And, unfortunately, they did like him for his jive-ass humor. "Going to Montana" and all that stupid shit. It's like Monty Python or something; you have to be a pot-smoker and/or arrested adolescent to really dig it. So that really put me off him for many, many years.

But like so many artists, he really shouldn't be dismissed out of hand despite his many gaffes.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

"If he's a genre unto himself, he's a genre that I've already decided I don't like."

Hahaha...okay, fair enough.

I agree -- sometimes Zappa's clever-clever humour hampered my enjoyment of his work, but the guy was definietely someone whose vision and ability I respect. He was also a great guitarist to boot, if that sort've thing matters to you.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:51 (10 years ago) Permalink

Neil Young has many gaffes, too, but one listen to "Cowgirl in the Sand" should be enough to convince you that he's great. I've heard many many MANY (oh, far too many) Zappa songs, and not one of them has ever made me say anything more enthusiastic than, "Eh."

So, much as Diamond asked me to explain why I don't like him, I'd like someone to outline why they do.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:53 (10 years ago) Permalink

listen to magic fingers! you will love!

― chaki (chaki), Saturday, 22 February 2003 08:57 (10 years ago) Permalink

I mean, there are some great Mothers songs in the classic 60's psych mold. "Hungry Freaks, Daddy" for sure.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

What album is "magic fingers" on? Never heard of it.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

Alrighty then. I'd only seen Zappa on Saturday Night Live and while thumbing through my stoner cousin's record collection (he had FREAK OUT and SLEEP DIRT scattered among his countless Yes albums). Then, in the summer of 1980, I was exiled to a summer camp in Oxford, Maine called "Great Oaks", wherein I was sequestered into a cabin with four other disgruntled, tow-headed louts like myself and a weed-addled counselor who'd just gotten his hands on a copy of Zappa's JOE'S GARAGE ACT.1. Between constant, tireless airing of that tape, EMOTIONAL RESCUE by the Stones and the first Devo album, I left that camp with a wider musical vista (prior to that, I wasn't much interested in more than Pink Floyd and Kiss and hadn't really discovered Punk Rock yet outside of the first Clash album, which my sister and I landed by accident and initially played for laffs).

In any event, the appeal of JOE'S GARAGE to my thirteen year old ears lay in its bizarre, cautionary narrative of censorship and governmental oppresion (being a recovering Pink Floyd fan, I had yet to tire of the overwrought notion of the 'concept album'), its shamelesly potty-mouthed and prurient sensibility (song titles included "Why Does it Hurt When I Pee?", "Crew Slut" and "Catholic Girls") and its trippy instrumentation (I'm still blown away by the Hendrixian middle-finger solo, "Toad-O Line," which hijacked the central melodic figure of Toto's cloying "Hold the Line" and turned it into something entirely more complex and dizzyingly intriguing).

I remember buying the tape (and IT'S ALIVE by the Ramones) the day I got home from camp and playing them both endlessly. Still love it to this day.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'm unconvinced, as I was determined to be from the beginning. You do relize that most of that explaination was about you and not Zappa, right?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:16 (10 years ago) Permalink

well, whadya want? it's fuckin 4am, man! You told me to outline why I liked him, and I explained why.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:17 (10 years ago) Permalink

a good explanation to certain extent has to include it being about the person and their relationship with the music, which alex did a fine job of describing. it should also be noted, however, that good explanation is not necessarily the same thing as a "convincing" explanation -- only you can decided the effect of that.

as for zappa, for me at least his heavy handed sense of humor has always been the major stumbling block, though their definitely interesting moments for me here and most of Freak Out is pretty listenable (with exceptions).

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:21 (10 years ago) Permalink

well, whadya want?

I want an explaination of why you like him that's as least as coherent as my explaination of why I don't like him. Preferably moreso.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:22 (10 years ago) Permalink

Ween = Cheech and Chong of the 90's.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:25 (10 years ago) Permalink

Cole: I agree that music is a personal thing, but if "I liked it when I was young" is a valid defense, I could argue for a lot of bands that I would never nowadays defend in a thousand years. (Okay, a hundred.) Why, right now, in this day and age, should I pay Zappa any mind?

And don't give me that "he's a good guitarist" crap. That's a defense for Joe Satriani, too.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

Look man, I'm pretty sure I spelled out why I liked that one album in question. Ignore the preamble of my first paragraph and concentrate on the second where I spell out the main reasons it appealed to me: (concept, sensibility, instrumentation and guitar playing). If that doesn't work for you, than I'm afraid I can't help ya. As Jack Cole so astutely said above, a good explanation isn't necessarily a convincing one.

But, as the great man himself said, this is all just about a useful as dancing about architecture.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'd also like to point out that I've never been swayed into liking an artist based solely on someone else's testimony. They might persuade me to give it another chance, but the actual appreciation can only come via my own ears, not via the power of someone else's suggestion.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

this is all just about a useful as dancing about architecture

Alex, you're the #1 contributor to this forum. I don't believe for a second that you really believe that.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:32 (10 years ago) Permalink

In other words, don't wait around for someone to talk you into liking Zappa. If you can't hear for yourself thing to like, than you should simply accept the fact that is just ain't your bag. I have the same problem with the Grateful Dead. While I don't hate their guts, I just don't hear anything exceptional about their music in the slightest,.....yet people fawn all over them, which I simply cannot understand.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

"Alex, you're the #1 contributor to this forum. I don't believe for a second that you really believe that."

I don't actually believe it, but it seemed like a timely and appropriate opportunity to whip out that by-now-well-worn cliché.

I'm not really the #1 contributor to ILM, though, am I?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

Dude, just click on "users." You're in the lead by over 200 posts.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'd really like to see someone dance about architecture.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

jesus, yer right. Right ahead of Ned. Fuck!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

TAD TO THREAD RIGHT AWAY

― chaki (chaki), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'd really like to see someone dance about architecture.

Oh, I know, right? Wouldn't that just be the best/worst thing you've ever seen?

"I call this next one..." [dramatic pause] "...Chrysler Building."

[begin interpretive art-deco dance]

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

have the same problem with the Grateful Dead. While I don't hate their guts, I just don't hear anything exceptional about their music in the slightest,.....yet people fawn all over them, which I simply cannot understand

haha .. this is great, cuz for whatever nutty reason I actually gave a spun to Garcia, the first Jerry Garcia solo album, tonight. It's fantastic! Especially the second side. Total musique concrete weirdness. It's one of those records where, if the Wire had any balls, they'd use in a "Invisible Jukebox" with someone who would hate it if they had the crutch of context. You know, ask some priss what he thinks about the first Jerry Garcia record. "oh, it's fantastic, wonderful stuff!"

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:52 (10 years ago) Permalink

Are you suggesting, Mr.D, that I'm incapable of listening to the Grateful Dead objectively?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 09:57 (10 years ago) Permalink

I am, I will admit, incapable of listening to the Grateful Dead objectively anymore. It all started on this long road trip from Austin to New Orleans. I scammed a ride from a girl I worked with. Early in the trip she asked, "You like the Dead, right?" Not wanting to appear rude so early in the trip I said, "Yeah, sure." She then treated me to almost ten solid hours of NOTHING but Grateful Dead bootlegs. She literally didn't have anything else in her car. It was a purple shade of hell, I tell you. The interminable, noodling solos. The bad vocals. The... even more interminalbe noodling solos. God. I could spend ten hours on an assembly line, and it would be more rewarding.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:04 (10 years ago) Permalink

IDM d00d: "Oh this is great, surely I have this on a limited edition record. what is it again?"

Wire hack: "Well surely that would be Himuro! Yes I too sometimes weep for the glory days of Worm Interface. Wotta great record!"

IDM d00d: "Oooh .. this is very hip-hop! I quite like it, yes! It's quite afro; very well done."

Wire hack: "It's a FUNKSTÖRUNG remix, surely"

IDM d00d: "Surely it is"

{Wire hack puts on first Jerry Garcia record}

IDM d00d: "Brilliant Craic! Luv it mate!"

Wire hack: "it's the first Jerry Garcia record"

*shotgun*

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

i have said before that the acid test tapes sound like the boredomes. magic fingers is on the 200 motels sndtrk

― chaki (chaki), Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:20 (10 years ago) Permalink

Come to think of it, I kind of like Kid606, even though I've never heard a lick of his music.

Yes, the Acid Tapes are choice...

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:23 (10 years ago) Permalink

i hate pretty much anything(not everything) thats part of the 'canon' or that is claimed to be 'influential'so i have always avoided zappa. As far as guitar stuff goes i hate almost everything after about 1980 but i'd say as far as rock goes i'd take beefheart over zappa any day (loathe as i am to say i like someone who IS part of the canon) Not heard the WIllie The Pimp track with zappa , i may check it out.

― Ian Smyth, Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:49 (10 years ago) Permalink

Now Kid606 Rulez!

― Ian Smyth, Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:49 (10 years ago) Permalink

Respect the Beefheart... and TAME the Zappa!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 10:51 (10 years ago) Permalink

I've *ALWAYS* hated those who say " How can you not like zappa yet like beefheart!" with a passion!

― Ian Smyth, Saturday, 22 February 2003 11:13 (10 years ago) Permalink

Ian enjoys hate, it seems.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 11:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

'good taste' and 'restraint' can eat my fuc. As for 'the world in general', don't get me started

― dave q, Saturday, 22 February 2003 11:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

can i eat ur fuc dave?

― chaki (chaki), Saturday, 22 February 2003 11:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

Listen: I had a huge discussion with a fellow ILX poster who happens to live downstairs about how can Zappa really claim to love doowop and then proceed to make fun of it? He's influenced by this music, by R&B, and then does a parody of it for some satirical purpose. How can you love a thing so much and MAKE FUN OF IT at the same time?

That's how I remember the drunken conversation, anyway. There was also the how-dated-is-he question and the what-do-you-really-like-about-him demand. I had to answer these questions while, like, drunk.

I suppose the best I could come up with is that he's a composer. I love his guitar solos, I love his Mothers stuff, and I love his composed-for-rock-band stuff. I love his sense of humor. I love the fact that he did "Stairway to Heaven" note for note in concert until the guitar solo, when the horn section came in. He composed this stuff -- even the cover songs he does -- with great care. He knows where he wants the weird sounds to go and he puts them there.

I could say a whole lot more, but none of this will convince you, Kenan. That's fine. None of this convinces my downstairs neighbor, either.

― weatheringdaleson (weatheringdaleson), Saturday, 22 February 2003 12:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

--not trying to rag on you or anything, Kenan, but--

*I find him kitschy.

>>> Yeah.

*I find him gimmicky.

>>>Sometimes, maybe a lot, actually. I tend to like gimmicks.

*I find that he meets almost none of my requirements for good music.

>>>Well, there ya go.

*He just shits on everything -- good taste, restraint, the world in general.

>>>Not true. I'll give you the part about good taste; I find pockets of his stuff unlistenable. But I can offer as an honest-to-god-homage-to-the-blues "Directly From My Heart To You" from Weasels Ripped My Flesh. Restraint? When FZ restrains himself, he is at his worst. The world in general? He shits on that? I think he viewed that as his fucking job.

*Where's the music?

>>>Huh, good question.

*Where's the part that supposed to touch me in any way other than on some pure intellectual, ironic level?

>>>The guitar solos??? I don't see how a guitar solo could be ironic or purely intellectual. You gotta put yer fingers right THERE on the fret when the finger with the pick is wobbling over here for the tremolo. And the feedback, man, the feedback! You must explain to me how this is "ironic" or "intellectual."

*You can combine the two, you know.

>>>I am open and willing to listen to a lot of things things that you might suggest that combine these two things (which I take to mean "music" and "intellectual").

*I mean, maybe YOU know, but Zappa didn't.

>>>No, I really don't know. And I don't know either if Zappa did. But I'll listen to his stuff over Ween any day.

Regards...(and no offense or anything, really)...

― weatheringdaleson (weatheringdaleson), Saturday, 22 February 2003 12:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

I am going to see a concert featuring music by Mr Zappa this evening.

It's shocking how little I know of the man's work, given that I publish a fanzine which puns on his name.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 22 February 2003 13:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 262 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Not the song, the album.

Yeah, that what I was talking about

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 16:41 (1 month ago) Permalink

Well if you are going to hate Zappa you are going to hate him, and that's totally fine. I think more than any other musician I enjoy Zappa is the one that I can understand other people not liking the most. On that tip I feel like if you are going to love Zappa you may as well dive into the most zany classic Mothers sound collage/social commentary/freakout music you can. The trilogy of "Absolutely Free", "We're Only In It For the Money", and "Lumpy Gravy" is like the ultimate litmus test. I couldn't really see someone being in love w, say, "Sheik Yerbouti" while at the same time hating those earlier records.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 16:52 (1 month ago) Permalink

I couldn't really see someone being in love w, say, "Sheik Yerbouti" while at the same time hating those earlier records.

Really? I could totally see that.

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 16:57 (1 month ago) Permalink

But total fanatical Zappa fans seem to like everything he did no matter what

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 16:57 (1 month ago) Permalink

Nooo.....

I've been buying and loving his work since 1979, but some of it I just can't stand. The Flo & Eddie period is terrible, much of the Synclavier stuff leaves me cold. So much of the misanthropic "comedy" music is horrible.

Now that his catalog is on Spotify, I might make some playlists that accentuate different aspects of his work.

― The Complete Afterbirth of the Cool (WilliamC), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:01 (1 month ago) Permalink

I dislike most of the original Mothers stuff. I like Ruben, Rats & Weasels, but otherwise I'm not on board until Grand Wazoo. But from there through Zappa In New York I'm a bit gonzo over his work even if I cringe at the lyrics as time goes on. The music and musicians he was working with were top notch. It's more hit or miss afterwords, though the Guitar records are straight killer.

― EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:14 (1 month ago) Permalink

Huh, it appears I'm wrong. Tbh i haven't met many Zappa fans irl unless i was listening to "WOIIFTM" and they came up to me and said "Duuuuude! Yessss!"

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:24 (1 month ago) Permalink

I like Zappa's instrumental music - my iPod contains The Grand Wazoo, Waka/Jawaka, Hot Rats, Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar, and the recent compilation Finer Moments, and that's it. In high school I liked the late '70s/early '80s albums - Them Or Us, You Are What You Is, the Joe's Garage trilogy - but I don't listen to those anymore. I feel really glad to have seen him on his final US tour - Make A Jazz Noise Here, the mostly instrumental live album from that run, is pretty good, too.

― 誤訳侮辱, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:25 (1 month ago) Permalink

Your original statement was a bit like saying about a Pink Foyd fan, "I couldn't really see someone being in love w, say, "Dark Side of the Moon" while at the same time hating "Piper at the Gates of dawn".

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:26 (1 month ago) Permalink

Well "Sheik Yerbouti" always seemed like on the zanier goofy-voices side of his stuff, so i thought it was a more direct comparison.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:27 (1 month ago) Permalink

Can't remember if this was linked up thread : http://www.furious.com/perfect/zappainstrumentals.html

― What About The Half That's Never Been POLLed (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:54 (1 month ago) Permalink

Hadn't seen it before. Great piece.

― Basil Ironweed (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:19 (1 month ago) Permalink

"Sheik Yerbouti"'s supposedly his alltime biggest seller, so it makes sense that it has lots of fans who have no use for the MOI stuff

― Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 22:06 (1 month ago) Permalink

^
this is crazy - that album always seemed to be a late career curio (with the Bob Dylan impersonation its sole saving grace). I have trouble imagining a world/period where that was a hit album

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Thursday, 4 April 2013 09:47 (1 month ago) Permalink

It's got "funny" songs on it

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Thursday, 4 April 2013 09:49 (1 month ago) Permalink

true - I might have chuckled a few times when I first heard Flakes, Jewish Princess and Dancing Fool. Can't remember anything else on that album

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:02 (1 month ago) Permalink

I always thought Broken Hearts Are For Assholes was pretty funny just because of how weirdly vulgar it gets. Not proud of myself for laughing at that one. But having a disco song that's almost completely undanceable really is funny!

― frogbs, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:07 (1 month ago) Permalink

"Dancin' Fool" was a respectable hit (#45) and got plenty of airplay in 1979, even in Mississippi. Grammy nomination, (disastrous) SNL gig... it's not too surprising that SY was his biggest selling album...that was never a high bar to clear.

― The Complete Afterbirth of the Cool (WilliamC), Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:13 (1 month ago) Permalink

yeah Sheik Yerbouti was the first album I heard in high school, it and You Are What You Is are maybe the heaviest on the silly voice comedy music (isn't "Bobby Brown Goes Down" on SY? that's def one of the key "silly" Zappa songs, also one of the most offensive)

nowadays the only stuff I can listen to is the Mothers + Hot Rats, but I should prolly try other records

― ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:19 (1 month ago) Permalink

I do think that even when his albums suck they are all at least interesting to some degree. I love the idea of Thing-Fish because you've got this widely respected composer with an incredibly devoted fanbase, and even they have trouble listening to it all the way through. The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work - I know most superfans claim that this is all ironic but after his 50th or so song attacking gay people I kinda wonder how true that is.

― frogbs, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:26 (1 month ago) Permalink

yeah, the homophobic jokes (esp on "Bobby Brown") are too mean-spirited and venomous to code as ironic to me

― ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:28 (1 month ago) Permalink

not to mention all the "jokes" about pedophilia when he worked with both a convicted sex offender and a guy who is currently serving 25 years for child molestation. but we have discussed this before. still it does make a lot of his shit tough to swallow.

― frogbs, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:31 (1 month ago) Permalink

Weirdly, Bobby Brown was supposedly a popular song in gay clubs in the 70s.

― Moodles, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:32 (1 month ago) Permalink

Sofa has always been my favorite Zappa:

― how's life, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:53 (1 month ago) Permalink

If you like Trouble Every Day you may also like

For me the first three Mothers albums, Hot Rats and Apostrophe are all excellent, but really the only essentials. I spent a significant amount of time (and money, this was when you still had to buy music) in my late teens trying to find stuff by him I liked as much, and was always disappointed.

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:55 (1 month ago) Permalink

what's new in baltimore is also extremely beautiful

hold out for the guitar solo.

― how's life, Thursday, 4 April 2013 14:00 (1 month ago) Permalink

I think that in general with later Zappa (say, anything past You Are What You Is, and maybe even before that) you should just stick to the live stuff, as a rule of thumb. Nearly all the live albums I have are filled with a good chunk of "new" material but also have a few stunning renditions of older tunes - the way he'll take something that you may not even remember like "Outside Now" and turn it into something absolutely gorgeous is really something, and IMO the only thing Zappa really did well later on.

― frogbs, Thursday, 4 April 2013 14:00 (1 month ago) Permalink

yeah I haven't checked a lot of this since high school but I seem to remember The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life being pretty good

― ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Thursday, 4 April 2013 14:32 (1 month ago) Permalink

I was never nearly as interested in Zappa the guitar virtuoso as Zappa the crazy cross-genre songwriter/composer.

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 4 April 2013 14:39 (1 month ago) Permalink

The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work

He was born in 1940 and he always seems to me like a 50s kinda guy... and Italian... sorry if that's a bit Italophobe

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Thursday, 4 April 2013 14:41 (1 month ago) Permalink

The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work - I

aren't you a huge WEEN fan?

― how's life, Thursday, 4 April 2013 23:21 (1 month ago) Permalink

hahahahahaha

― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 4 April 2013 23:57 (1 month ago) Permalink

ween is just all the shitty pothead asshole humor & not-funny genre pastiche of zappa without all the amazing composition and musical skill

― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 4 April 2013 23:58 (1 month ago) Permalink

"eat that question" off grand wazoo has my fave FZ guitar solo ever and i'm not really into technocratic aspects so much, which is why i'm not a bigger zappa fan now (but I did listen to him a ton when I was a kid); I don't get "soul" when I hear his playing, which is my own personal prejudice I guess

― making plans for nyquil (outdoor_miner), Friday, 5 April 2013 00:42 (1 month ago) Permalink

ween was nowhere near as cruel and pretty much dropped that style of humor by the time they turned 26

― frogbs, Friday, 5 April 2013 00:43 (1 month ago) Permalink

yeah bullshit

― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 April 2013 00:44 (1 month ago) Permalink

For me the first three Mothers albums, Hot Rats and Apostrophe are all excellent, but really the only essentials.

throw in the Shut Up albums and Roxy & Elsewhere and this is pretty much my take on the catalog, isolated moments like "Watermelon In Easter Hay" excepted.

― the world's most impertinent web designer (sleeve), Friday, 5 April 2013 00:55 (1 month ago) Permalink

yeah bullshit

http://www.youtube.com/v/bXV71xzDdJE&fs=1&hl=en

― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

first of all that song came out when they were 24 (I admit the early Ween is pretty rough), secondly that's more dark than cruel, unlike similar Zappa material you aren't really supposed to laugh at it

― frogbs, Friday, 5 April 2013 01:50 (1 month ago) Permalink

I'm a big fan of the various chamber ensembles that have performed FZ's work since his death (Ambrosius, Omnibus, Le Concert Impromptu et al). Just discovered a new one -- Inventionis Mater, an Italian guitar/clarinet duo. Some really nice arrangements here, especially of the WOIIFTM stuff.
http://www.inventionismater.com/eng/index.html

― Thirty-Six Views of ILX, by Mari3sa (WilliamC), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 18:32 (1 month ago) Permalink

Thanks!

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 16 April 2013 18:34 (1 month ago) Permalink

Yeah, that is nice. Those melodies take to those kinds of arrangements well. I sometimes wish all Zappa was arranged like the first few minutes of Uncle Meat -- before the snorks kick in.

― New Authentic Everybootsy Collins (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 19:38 (1 month ago) Permalink

Snorks are the worst.

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 16 April 2013 19:48 (1 month ago) Permalink

This version of "Sofa #2" is the most sublimely beautiful of all the ones I've ever heard. I want this played at my funeral, for real. (And "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" played at my wake.)

― Thirty-Six Views of ILX, by Mari3sa (WilliamC), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 20:11 (1 month ago) Permalink

I think that's my favorite of the tracks I sampled.

And I promise no snork references at either your wake or funeral.

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 16 April 2013 20:19 (1 month ago) Permalink

No snork references?! Hell, my will is going to include $100 prize money for a "best snork" contest at the wake.

― Thirty-Six Views of ILX, by Mari3sa (WilliamC), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 20:22 (1 month ago) Permalink

Is there extra money if I bring up the Trollkins?

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 16 April 2013 20:38 (1 month ago) Permalink

WilliamC, are you familiar with Trio Cucamonga? They're new to me.

― New Authentic Everybootsy Collins (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 20:57 (1 month ago) Permalink

I'd heard the name before but never heard anything by them. That's a good Meat!

― Thirty-Six Views of ILX, by Mari3sa (WilliamC), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 21:05 (1 month ago) Permalink

oh, and no money for Trollkins! What the hell are Trollkins, anyway?

― Thirty-Six Views of ILX, by Mari3sa (WilliamC), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 21:21 (1 month ago) Permalink

Trollkins - the unholy marriage of the Dukes of Hazzard and Troll Dolls.

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 16 April 2013 21:27 (1 month ago) Permalink

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