Is punk the apocalypse or the idealists built to survive it?
Just diferent ways of dealing with Whoa, This Shit Is Fucked Up, I always figured- "whoa, this shit is fucked up, aaaargh!" (Johnny Rotten), "whoa, this shit is fucked up, let's make it so damn cartoony that it loses its menace" (The Ramones), "whoa, this shit is fucked up, let's change it!" (The Clash)
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 01:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 01:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
(none of these are mutually exclusive.)
― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 01:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 02:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 02:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 02:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
as i understand the superword concept (and if i'm misinterpreting then i'm merely freeing it from the tyranny of frank's fixed defn...haha "superword" is a superword), it's the exact UNreliability of the word itself which gives it its power. attempting to fix any defn to it is what stimulates the debate, arguments, pissing contests, whatever. to say that punk "takes shit as fucked up" is to affix a defn to punk is taking PART in the superword idea, but fairly useless in deconstructing/understanding the idea of the concept itself. likewise, me calling beenie man or the klf punks (which i wholly believe btw) is another way to take part in the superword idea, but again, fairly useless in defining the concept, which slips in and around artists/scenes/sounds with frustrating (or wonderful, depending on yr take) ease.
― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 18:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 19:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 19:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
For what it's worth I'm listening to the Poison Girls right now and they're one of the best punk groups ever from what I'm thinking, and half the songs are gentle ballads sung by a woman who rivals Marianne Faithful for general expression!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 19:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
I've never heard the Poison Girls, but you say they're punk from what you're thinking. Well, you must be thinking something that we can comprehend and you feel is a viable definition of punk or else you wouldn't have said that word to us.
So yeah, I can see why the KLF are punk conceptually (they poop on rules and all that). But the point remains that there's good reason to attempt to define punk, otherwise it would be worthless superword to throw around. Superword means we debate, not that there's no answers.
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 19:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
It's certainly contextual (friends/labelmates of Crass, noted anarchists, etc.). But then again Crass themselves tried all sorts of styles and approaches under the rubric and anarchism doesn't have to mean sounding like the Sex Pistols (or whoever).
Superwords are fun (hey! that word!) to throw around. That's why I'm bemused by the fact that apparently Avril Lavigne is hated because she claims she's punk. Is that really a reason to hate?
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 19:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
Actually, wait. When I was 18 I was a bitter music-nazi who would have hated her punk co-option and been trying to make myself like free jazz. I was so stupid then.
― Anthony Miccio, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 19:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 20:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 21:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
This thread still hasn't gotten into social category.
So here goes. There are two types of people in the world, Pseudointellectuals and Real Intellectuals. Pseudointellectuals talk about Chuck Eddy's motives, while Real Intellectuals talk about Chuck Eddy's ideas. OK, I'm being rough, and Jody and Dave Q probably will talk about both. And I certainly don't think that discussion of motives should be taken off the intellectual table. But come on. Most people who talk about Chuck's motives do so as a way of evading his ideas. [More to come.]
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 18 November 2002 08:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Monday, 18 November 2002 15:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
― J (Jay), Monday, 18 November 2002 19:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
As far as social category goes though, I'm usually not comfortable with them. People who define themselves as part of a group usually feel the need to live up to some outside standard, and therefore might ignore their personal tastes. The only times I don't flinch are when people say it with some humor (i.e., "oh god, look at my record collection. I am SO emo.") or when their definition is rather broad. I know we all do it, but it's dangerous to get hung up on it. I think most of the time Chuck uses it to explain why people's tastes get messed up.
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 00:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
wittgenstenisms flounder like lenored blouses in a warm breeze
but i like this superword thing
― a-33 (CDT GCSE only), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 01:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
Anthony this is the worst thing I have ever heard you say. Mainly because it is philosophically either indefensible or trivial depending on how you approach it. What does it mean for a person to have taste except as it relates to the taste of others? Furthermore, who here doesn't need to live up to some outside standard (many, usually)? I wear nice clothes to work and speak to people in a certain way and address friends a different way and cut my hair so I look fresh and etc.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 06:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 19 November 2002 07:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 07:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 19 November 2002 07:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yancey (ystrickler), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 15:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 16:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
I mean, we can safely assume indie rock is not a pastry or an interesting new way to whittle. There for the definition of indie rock must exist, lest people think we're talking about pastries. However, if someone thinks ECM is indie-rock, there's logic to it. And if somebody is trying to say "Britney" is indie for some god-unknown reason, there might be logic to that too. But since no logic would define Millard Fillmore as "indie rock" we can assume the definition of Indie Rock would exclude Millard Fillmore.
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 17:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 17:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
If there were no social categories, then everyone wouldn't all be individuals, rather we would all be the same, or at least unable to distinguish if we were individuals.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 17:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 17:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 17:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yancey (ystrickler), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 17:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Don Allred, Tuesday, 14 January 2003 02:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
My response:
Protestant Ethic = through the grace of God, if you're one of the elect, your actions, including your leisure-time pursuits, will serve a useful social and moral purpose.
rebel boys on the streets = the electundermining the capitalist system = serving a useful social and moral purpose
By the way, I have nothing against art or Frank serving useful social and moral purposes. I just don't like the clampdown that comes into effect when "serving a social and moral purpose" is tied to a vision in which (1) the capitalist world is fundamentally corrupt and all-engulfing (= puritan conception that worldliness is fundamentally corrupt); (2) if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, so if you're not actively undermining capitalism, you're reinforcing it; (3) since your actions should serve a useful social and moral purpose, and since your actions - every single one of them - either undermine or reinforce capitalism, you should endeavor to make all your actions undermine capitalism; so (4) these people wouldn't play what they couldn't justify, and they have to justify their playtime and that of the people they champion by saying it undermines capitalism. So if some gutter punks are getting fucked up and going wild, and this rocks, by golly it better undermine capitalism too.
However, in r'n'r, the Protestant Ethic isn't so much the committed leftist's attempt to undermine capitalism as it is the hipster-freak-punk's attempt to maintain his vision of himself as outside of the mainstream; the ethic in full effect tells him that any action moves you either towards or away from the mainstream. Of course, not all punks buy into this (as a matter of fact, before punk became a movement, one thing that distinguished proto-punk-types from the freaks was that the punks didn't buy into the counterculture's vision of itself as a counterculture; but that was back in the days when punk = intelligent), just as not all leftists buy into the idea of capitalism as an all-engulfing system, or the idea that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.
The r'n'r Prot Ethic has interesting permutations: e.g. a full-time sex-drugs-and-r'n'r funster is still a puritan (undermining the prot ethic = serving a useful social and moral purpose); if he's attempting to purify rock'n'roll, cure it of its social pretensions and make it full fun like in the nonexistent good old days, he's still only playing what he can justify, even if he's flip-flopped the terms so that full-time morality = seven-day weekend.
A little bit of Prot Ethic is better than none, I think; it can be useful for pushing words into Superwords. If to be a freak or a punk you have to be outside of society, then "freak" and "punk" will always keep slipping from your grasp, will dart on ahead while you try to chase them. Any and every freak/punk will potentially fall short, will always be playing catch-up.
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Luc S., Monday, 10 February 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 10 February 2003 21:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Don Allred, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 03:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 16:24 (seventeen years ago) link
― Cee Bee (Cee Bee), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 16:45 (seventeen years ago) link
this thread is the best
― caulk the wagon and float it, Wednesday, 22 May 2013 19:43 (ten years ago) link
i desire an anthology of the ancient posts with as wonderful a thoughtful content : jokes/trolls/insults ratio as this one
― caulk the wagon and float it, Wednesday, 22 May 2013 19:44 (ten years ago) link