Examples of record companies pressuring creative choices?

Can't find such a thread but there probably is one.

I've heard often enough about bands being told to dress a certain way, do tours a certain way, create some singles, be more commercially viable or changing a tracklist but I don't recall much more than that sort of stuff.

Are there any examples of good bands being pressured into specific sounds or being asked to sing like somebody else?

too many to mention

I mean where to begin, the dawn of recorded music?

Indeed. Think Mel Brooks must have had a bit about it in The 2,000 Year Old Man.

One that I remember vividly was that Radiohead's overlords during the production of 'The Bends' wanted them to lose the subtle synths in "Fake Plastic Trees" and almost got their way. I can't even imagine the track without that touch. You can totally see the record company strategry at work there: "Grunge kids are going to hear those ELECTRONIC SOUNDS and have a violent organ rejection! 50% less units shifted!"

Those bastards

I wonder how/to what degree Third Man Records fits in here.

Am I correct that Lynyrd Skynyrd originally began using the Confederate flag onstage as a marketing decision by MCA? I thought I read that somewhere, but don't really have time to scour for confirmation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moody_Blues

the classic story re record label vs the electric prunes vs david axelrod

damn, even age of chance fell into this trap.
due to label debts for their second major label album, mecca, there was a lot of pressure to go more pop.
hence why 'mecca' had very little connection to everything the band had made before.
however, the band were able to keep control over their own self produced 12" versions ..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/The_Howlin%27_Wolf_Album.jpg

^^^amazing album fwiw

too many to mention

― Οὖτις, Thursday, July 7, 2016 4:17 PM (2 hours ago)

.. basically ..

I just don't recall many specific examples of record companies choosing the musical direction.

How about examples where the record company was right? There may be at least five times that's happened, right?

I never thought the choice to put strings on Nico's Chelsea Girl was as bad a choice as she and a lot of fans seem to. I think the arrangements work pretty well and they never even slightly bothered me until I heard the story that it was against her wishes.

Maybe the songs/performance/guitar playing are just so good that it doesn't get in the way. Would be interesting to listen to the whole thing without strings -- I imagine that exists somewhere.

Somebody on another thread said "Laura" by Bat For Lashes was the result of a single being requested for the third album and I think many regard it as the highlight.

excellent example here, I hadn't heard of any of the issues with The Doors' 3rd album before I found the link/webpage:

http://albumsthatneverwere.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-doors-celebration-of-lizard.html

The story got out that Fiona Apple's third album, Extraordinary Machine, was rejected or at least delayed by the record company, leading to a huge fan-led campaign for it to be released. This was not true, in fact it was Apple herself who was unhappy with the original recording and wanted to redo it.

I would think that the vast majority of albums ever made for record labels, at least prior to the "DIY" era, would fit this thread title. So much so that "complete creative control" actually became a buzzword precisely because it was not the norm at all.

john holt : 1000 volts of love
the original jamaican versions were given a radio friendly string drenched makeover by UK record label, trojan.
result = massive sales.
a definite case of the record label doing what they wanted, not the artist.
suspect there are many other variants of this story re reggae/trojan.

reprise didn't like "summerteeth" and thought it needed a "hit single", so Wilco recorded "Can't Stand It".

You all know that A&R stands for Artists & Repertoire, right? In days of yore, it was the A&R man's job to match performers to songs. "Here, schmuck - sing this." If it was a hit, three or four other artists would record versions, too. Take a look sometime at how many versions of the song "Gentle On My Mind" were recorded in the late '60s and early '70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentle_on_My_Mind_(song)

"complete creative control" actually became a buzzword precisely because it was not the norm at all.

^^^^ding ding ding. The entire concept is an anomaly in the history of the record biz, a blip borne out of the overblown incomes/egos of boomer rock era.

I think we can draw a distinction between labels MAKING creative decisions and labels PRESSURING those decisions. I think what Robert Adam Gilmour is asking for are noteworthy cases of creative conflict between label and artist. In which case an A&R choosing material for an artist, in the days when it was understood that that was their role, wouldn't be an example of "pressuring" in the relevant sense (unless the artist resisted).

I'm skeptical of that distinction. Labels have always pressured creative decisions as well. There are probably a million examples of open or quiet disagreement. The label is a business trying to sell a product and tends to have opinions about what the product should be like, rightly or wrongly.

blur is the classic example that worked out from recent British history. went away and wrote 2 hits for Modern Life Is Rubbish because evil old label boss Dave Balfe (ex-Teardrop Explodes) insisted.

i know for a fact, age of chance resisted the pressures re their second album.

blur : good call !
hello 'popscene'.

Yes, there's still plenty of people joining pop factories and happily knowing what they're getting into. I'm more interested in bands being told to do something they'd be understandably miffed about, like being told to be more like another popular band or sing a certain way or start using instruments they don't like.

reprise didn't like "summerteeth" and thought it needed a "hit single", so Wilco recorded "Can't Stand It".

― the event dynamics of power asynchrony (rushomancy), Thursday, July 7, 2016 2:10 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And it was a massive, platinum-selling chart-topping hit, so nice job Reprise!

I'm glad the song exists though.

I'm more interested in bands being told to do something they'd be understandably miffed about, like being told to be more like another popular band or sing a certain way or start using instruments they don't like.

again, this is the standard not the exception

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TcKiC2yB0s

There probably have been Lots of bands who were told to sound more like Coldplay but I'd like to hear the bands actually say that

of the most extreme cases

i guess one of the most notable ones

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2005/10/im_a_genius_too.html

http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/KF/0509/Help_Me_Rhonda_Sessions_edit.mp3

loosen up guys

come on

just loosen up a little

that session is incredible but *pedant alert* Murry did not represent the record label

"How about examples where the record company was right? There may be at least five times that's happened, right?"

Prince.

Yes, there's still plenty of people joining pop factories and happily knowing what they're getting into. I'm more interested in bands being told to do something they'd be understandably miffed about, like being told to be more like another popular band or sing a certain way or start using instruments they don't like.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, July 7, 2016 3:02 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

How about being told not to play on the record at all, which was standard practice at least pre, idk, 1965 or so?

Yes, there's still plenty of people joining pop factories and happily knowing what they're getting into.

You mean signing with record labels?

thats true murry wasnt even the official manager

i guess in answer to this thread this is why bands decide to sign to a small label or create their own

You mean signing with record labels?

― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:28

I meant something more along the lines of singers who don't direct the writing, the dances, appearances and stuff like that. And session musicians who only want to be session musicians.

pick a singer at random, any singer - there's your example

My guess is that it happens even in the storied "complete creative control" situations -- I always suspected that was partly a marketing gimmick.

pick a singer at random, any singer - there's your example

― Οὖτις, Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:45

But I'm not interested in those singers who just wanted to sing while everyone creates everything else, that's the deal they probably wanted. I want to see someone say "I was forced to sing like Chris Martin and play a saxophone". Or an underground metal band being told to be more gory and racist.

LITERALLY PICK ANY ARTIST ON A RECORD LABEL

excellent example here, I hadn't heard of any of the issues with The Doors' 3rd album before I found the link/webpage:

http://albumsthatneverwere.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-doors-celebration-of-lizard.html

― sleeve, Thursday, July 7, 2016 1:47 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Tbf to Rothchild the studio vers of "Celebration of the Lizard" is pretty weak, not nearly as good as the vers from "Absolutely Live", which probably benefited from the fact the Doors had played the song live a few times at that point.

Of course, I suppose on the other hand if Rothchild had loved it maybe they would have spent more time perfecting it? The second half of "Waiting For the Sun" is kind of lame.

wrt "underground" the label will rarely force them to change their style/image/music bc small labels sign you if they like yer music

changing something in your music/style has an economic underpinning and small labels usu are not worried about that as they run a p lean business to begin with

if youre looking to get big from being on a small label you shop for bigger distributor and/or bigger label from what i understand

The general phenomenon of label meddling over artist resistance might be ubiquitous, but there could still be interesting, noteworthy, or particularly egregious examples. This could thread could be a place to post and discuss such examples.

Nico, "Chelsea Girl"

"I still cannot listen to it, because everything I wanted for that record, they took it away. I asked for drums, they said no. I asked for more guitars, they said no. And I asked for simplicity, and they covered it in flutes! [...] They added strings and – I didn't like them, but I could live with them. But the flute! The first time I heard the album, I cried and it was all because of the flute."

Rick Rubin pressuring Run DMC into doing "Walk This Way" w/Aerosmith

Alex Chilton's entire career as a Box Top

first RZA and GZA singles

jon landau pressuring bruce springsteen to write a hit single for born in the usa after springsteen thought it was done. he told landau to go fuck himself (those may not have been his exact words), then crawled away (that may not have been his exact action) and wrote "dancing in the dark."

brian epstein forcing the beatles to wear nice, clean, matching suits

Andrew W.K. This album was originally titled "Blow Your Bone", but the title was deemed "Too offensive" by Island Records, so Andrew opted to use the name "The Wolf". Cover art was even made with the original title, but it differed from the cover art of "The Wolf".

Pink Floyd, "It Would Be So Nice"

Nick Mason: "Fucking awful, that record, wasn't it? At that period we had no direction. We were being hustled about to make hit singles. There's so many people saying it's important you start to think it is important. It is possible on an LP to do exactly what we want to do. . . ."

Roger Waters: "Live bookings seem to depend on whether or not you have a record in the Top Ten. I don't like 'It Would Be So Nice.' I don't like the song or the way it's sung."

Mason: "We were a rock and roll band and if you're a rock and roll band and you've got a record that you want to be number one, you get it played and if they say 'take something out' or whatever - you do it. In fact what you do is exactly what was done - you make as much press out of it as possible. You ring up the Evening Standard and say: 'Did you know that the BBC won't play our record because it mentions your paper?'"

steve miller's record company threatening to drop him unless he wrote a song with the word "pompatus" in it*

*this may or may not be true

the tracklisting and everything else about the beatles' first seven or eight u.s. albums, including but not at all limited to "yesterday and today."

Badfinger being told they could have McCartney's "Come and Get It" as long as they played it note for note like his demo

Scott Walker, "The Moviegoer"

The album was the first of six studio albums in which Walker did not contribute original material. Having lost creative control of his music after the commercial failures of his previous two studio albums Scott 4 and 'Til the Band Comes In, Walker was tasked with recording "inoffensive, middle-of-the-road material that could be easily processed, marketed and sold". By way of compromise Walker had some say in the song selection and drew together a selection of themes from some of his favourite films.

This could end up as one of the longest threads on ILX.

where are those Floyd quotes from Tom D? i could, right now, read an entire book of Floyd talking about their entire recorded output in such fashion.

This could end up as one of the longest threads on ILX.

....

... Wikipedia! Sometimes seems Floyd are more critical of their own recordings than most of their critics! (xp)

who was first to break free? the beatles worked themselves up to it, but zeppelin seems to have had unusually free rein from the start. who else?

Dylan was pretty free. Thanks to Albert Grossman.

Rap-A-Lot's rotating cast of Geto Boys members

Zappa (my stock answer for anything)
xp

The La's: The Eden sessions with Lillywhite would become the band's final attempt at recording the album. The frustration of not achieving the right sound and mood in their songs, as well as increasing friction with Go! Discs, who had spent a considerable sum of money on recording sessions for the album, led to them simply giving up on the sessions. Lillywhite pieced together the recordings he had made with the group into what became the eventually released album. The band, particularly Lee Mavers, were not pleased with this decision. Among the band's complaints were that Lillywhite used vocal guide tracks on the LP and that he did not "understand" their sound. Mavers would later go on to claim that the band had played poorly deliberately during the sessions in the hope that the material would not be released, as they did not gel with Lillywhite from day one.

The Turtles, "Shell Shock"

... the quintet assembled at Sunset Sound studios in late 1969 and began recording their usual mix of originals and outside-written tracks. Produced by Jerry Yester, the band again sought to record another intelligent and musically diverse album as Turtle Soup, this time a bit more commercial. Songs known to have been recorded during these sessions include: original songs “Can I Go On”, “If We Only Had The Time”, “There You Sit Lonely”, “We Ain’t Gonna Party No More” and guitarist Al Nichol’s “You Want To Be A Woman”; the Bonner/Gordon leftovers “Goodbye Surprise” and “Like It Or Not”; an authentic cover of Jan & Arnie’s “Gas Money”; and a cover of the band's live staple, Lee Andrews & The Hearts’ “Teardrops”. But midway through the sessions, White Whale wished The Turtles to have a hit single, and suggested that Kaylan and Volman fly to Memphis and record vocal overdubs on a pre-recorded backing track for the ridiculously corny song “Who Would Ever Thought That I Would Marry Margaret”, penned by professional songwriters Dino and Sembello. Kaylan and Volman refused, claiming this transgression would reduce their rock band into transparent pop idols. In retaliation for their refusal to turn their band into a pair of fake pop singers, White Whale chained the doors to their studio at Sunset Sound and even posted guards outside the door, not allowing The Turtles to even retrieve their own gear, let alone finish the album!

In a desperate attempt to save the Shell Shock recordings and the hope to somehow finish the album, Kaylan and Volman agreed to record “Margaret”, although they refused to add anything other than their necessary lead and backing vocals. This ‘unfinished’ mix was released to dismal critical and commercial attention—just as the pair had predicted—and the single was a flop. Despite Kaylan and Volman’s participation, White Whale still refused to let The Turtles finish Shell Shock and both parties sued each other: White Whale sued The Turtles for a breach of contract and The Turtles sued White Whale for a missing $2,500,000 that was owed to them. The band soon called it quits amidst litigation. In one final plea to salvage the band’s reputation, White Whale allowed Kaylan, Volman and Nichol to record vocals for a final Turtles single, the beautiful “Lady-O”. Written and performed acoustically by Judee Sill, it was a gentle goodbye to the band.

The product of two years of labor, "Tim Hardin" found the artist moving away from his earlier white-blues catalog towards folk-rock. Backed by an eclectic cast, including The Lovin' Spoonful's John Sebastian, the combination of Hardin's world weary drawl, several classic tunes ("Reason To Believe", "Hang On To a Dream" and "Don't Make Promises") and his pretty boy looks proved irresistible to critics who raved over the set. Ironically, Hardin was reportedly furious with the string arrangements and other postproduction work.

Strings on Chelsea Girls were by Larry Fallon, btw, who also did the string arrangements on Astral Weeks.

"Neil Young is the only artist in the history of modern recording to be sued for refusing to be himself. The suit, filed by Geffen Records, Young’s label for much of the Eighties, charged that he was violating his contract by recording ‘unrepresentative’ albums. In other words, Neil Young wasn’t making Neil Young music."

Van Morrison: Bert Berns, Them’s producer and composer of their 1965 hit, "Here Comes the Night", persuaded Morrison to return to New York to record solo for his new label, Bang Records.[55] Morrison flew over and signed a contract he had not fully studied.[56] Then, during a two-day recording session at A & R Studios starting 28 March 1967, eight songs were recorded, originally intended to be used as four singles.[57] Instead, these songs were released as the album Blowin' Your Mind! without Morrison being consulted. He said he only became aware of the album's release when a friend mentioned on a phone call that he had just bought a copy of it. He later commented to Donal Corvin in a 1973 interview: "I wasn't really happy with it. He picked the bands and tunes. I had a different concept of it."[58]

And the funny part: Following the death of Berns in 1967, Morrison became involved in a contract dispute with Berns' widow, Ilene Berns, that prevented him from performing on stage or recording in the New York area.[62] The song "Big Time Operators", released in 1993, is thought to allude to his dealings with the New York music business during this time period.[63] He then moved to Boston, Massachusetts, and was soon confronted with personal and financial problems; he had "slipped into a malaise" and had trouble finding concert bookings.[64] However, through the few gigs he could find, he regained his professional footing and started recording with Warner Bros. Records.[65][66] The record company managed to buy out his contract with Bang Records. Morrison fulfilled a clause that bound him to submit thirty-six original songs within a year to Web IV Music, Berns' music publishing company, by recording thirty-one songs in one session; however, Ilene Berns thought the songs "nonsense music … about ringworms" and did not use them.[67][68] The throwaway compositions would come to be known as the "revenge" songs.[69]

Mark Prindle on this whole situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_BGmEJW6OM

having trouble finding the source of this anecdote but I could've sworn there was some oral history recently about the Humpty Dance where Shock G credited some label/mgmt person as encouraging them to do a whole song as the character

Ice-T: Home Invasion was the first album that Ice-T released following the controversy over the Body Count song "Cop Killer." Sire/Warner Bros. Records had stood by freedom of expression during the controversy, although some within the Time Warner conglomerate now favored a more pragmatic policy. The album was originally set for a November 15, 1992, release, but the Rodney King riots were still fresh in people's minds, an election was in process, and political releases by Ice Cube and Dr. Dre were causing controversy, so Ice T agreed to postpone Home Invasion's release, in addition to removing the song "Ricochet," which had already appeared on the soundtrack to the film of the same name.

With the album's release postponed to February 14, 1993, Sire/Warner Bros. told Ice-T that it would not release the album with its current artwork, painted by Dave Halili (cover artist for Body Count), which depicted a white youth who is seemingly immersed in black culture surrounded by images of violence, mayhem and disorder. Although the catalog number 45119 was already assigned to it and the single “Gotta Lotta Love” was released, the album was still deferred. Ice-T initially agreed, opting for an all-black cover and a name change to The Black Album. He later realized that his future output was going to be continuously monitored and censored, so he left the label amicably, signing a distribution deal with Priority Records, which released the album with the originally intended artwork. Due to the postponed release of the album, tracks were altered to keep the topics up-to-date.[

Jane's Addiction "Ritual De Lo Habitual" censored album cover

too bad they stopped there

when oh when will these monsters stop defiling the creative process?

Bill Nelson got the usual "we don't hear a hit" line. He responded by writing this brilliant song:
http://youtu.be/WsUu7GjshSc

After hastily signing the Human League in 1978 it became apparent to Virgin Records that the band were not very profitable, with none of their releases under Fast Records making any impact on the charts. Virgin began putting pressure on the group to justify their large advance signing fee. Pressure was put on Ware, Oakey and Marsh to abandon their no traditional instruments rule and use conventional instruments in an attempt to be more commercial and sell more records.[1] Ware reluctantly agreed but insisted that any material recorded this way should be released under a pseudonym to ensure that it wasn't confused with the pure electronic sound of The Human League. "I Don't Depend on You" was the only product of this compromise with Virgin. It was recorded with the addition of session musicians and was released under the name The Men. The song also features the synth riff from debut single Being Boiled towards the end of the track. Afterwards the band were able to record tracks in their original style for Virgin.

Waif Me

lol Shakey stfu dude

'can we list specific examples of this supposedly widespread thing?'
'I DONT JNOW PROBABLY THERES LOTS OF THEM OR ALL OF THEM'

beach boys SMiLE / smiley smile : pressure to finish the former or can it and clump the scraps into the latter

beastie boys not being allowed to name licensed to ill whatever homophobic shit it was supposed to be called

Twelve Times Industry Monsters WRECKED the Creative Process. (I was floored by #7!)

there's an ilm thread about whether the Beastie Boys would have had a career if their record company had agreed to release the album under the original title:

If the Beastie Boys' had released "Don't Be A Faggot"...

didn't A Tribe Called Quest's record label prevent them from putting a homophobic track on The Low End Theory, and it was replaced with "Show Business"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKcZb5LufE

Del the Funkee Homosapien's "I Wish My Brother George Was Here"

― Οὖτις, Friday, July 8, 2016 7:32 AM (9 hours ago)

wasn't this Ice Cube's choice of direction, not the pressure of a record company that would have had no expectation of this teenager with no previous releases?

anyway, Ice Cube OTM, this album towers over everything else Del ever did

it doesnt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_the_Crap

― Οὖτις, Friday, July 8, 2016 7:41 AM (13 hours ago)

this also has nothing to do with record company pressure of any kind, and is the result of a band's musically untalented manager doing a very bad job of turning some extremely weak demos into full recordings, under a pseudonym deliberately intended to imply the band's singer had done them, after the entire lineup had left the band.

it doesnt.

okay, Clint Eastwood was pretty good, when he again wrote to the shape of someone else's idea and then got mad afterwards that it turned out well

Hadn't heard this before:

After auditions (during which the identity of the band remained a secret), the Clash selected two guitarists, Nick Sheppard and Greg White, with the latter taking the name Vince White due to Simonon's refusal to play in a band with someone named "Greg".

sic it isn't clear to me that RAG understands what a "record company" is or what it does, so I wasn't being too strict about distinguishing between various kinds of external pressures being brought to bear on artists ie producer vs. management vs. actual label representative (roles which are sometimes interrelated/conflated, as was the case with Ice Cube)

Ice Cube didn't own Elektra iirc but it's been a while

(which is to concur with everyone that the thread would be more fun if you actually narrated the anecdotes behind the examples you're shouting at cumulo-gilmour)

yes well RAG wants specific examples dontchaknow, doesn't seem to care that the vast majority of bands are an example

This seems a very odd thing to be getting so angry about

Jesus, guys. Thanks a lot for completey ruining A Tribe Called Quest forever for me.

yeah georgie porgie is one of the worst things

http://genius.com/A-tribe-called-quest-georgie-porgie-lyrics

They should've at least mentioned it somewhere in the Michael Rapaport doc.