slowdive: classic or dud?

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Okay, MBV get alot of mentions around here, but I've not heard much about their shoegazing contemporaries. I like Slowdive's first two albums, "Waves" is one of my favourite songs...never really got into the mojave 3...

― james e l, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Slowdive are quite wonderful (better than MBV, no, but right on up there). "Avalyn II" on 33 instead of 45 is incredible, try it sometime if you have the vinyl around. Mojave 3 is a big comedown in comparison, though they have their moments.

Trust me, I can talk shoegaze all day if you get me going. Be warned. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Love 'em, especially the Halstead ambient solo -- errrr -- third one. Also have a soft spot for the first Mojave 3.

Bring on Moose.

― Andy, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Oh, for crying out loud.

― Nick, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

What's good about shoegazing ? That's a sincere question. Unlike other types of music I dislike, I don't even get the *theoretical* appeal of it. To me, it's the sound of rock and roll where melody, rocking, rhythm, balls and brains have all been replaced by swirlswirlswirl.

― Patrick, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I like swirls.

― Andy, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Swirls are very good. It's a question of whether not one likes the sounds, and I do. Who says that because you've got a guitar and an amp that therefore you must always rock out? To hell with that. Variety, variety! Let there be ever more of it!

If you're insistent on the fact, then know that a fair amount of those shoegaze characters did rock out when so inclined. Based on live experience alone, Chapterhouse, Slowdive, Ride, Lush and others could whip things up damn well. But they didn't have to, and things worked just fine regardless -- in fact, they worked spectacularly well. Hurrah!

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Oh, no rocking-out obligation whatsoever, I love variety too. I guess I'm just not moved by the swirl.

― Patrick, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

'souvlaki' - excellent, stretches bounderies of shoegazing more than MBV - chapterhouse's later stuff got better, pale saints rocked live.

i iz shittin' you no ?

― geordie racer, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

To be honest, I never got the appeal of Slowdive when they were releasing albums. Seemed too much like over-emphasis on the sonics, but not enough emphasis on the actual substance underlying it. I recently went back and listened to Pygmalion, and it was rather pleasant. I think the decision to morph into Mojave 3 paid off with much better material, though, especially on the newest.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Mojave 3 are nice without being gripping. They come off better live, admittedly, but the drowsy atmosphere on their first album has turned into my favorite bugaboo, 'classic songwriting.' Just what the world didn't need.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Sound is definitely important--maybe more important than melody to me (gasp!). Therefore, Slowdive please me MUCH. Patrick, you say it's the "sound of rock and roll" with all the "good stuff" taken out, but is it really even the sound of rock and roll? I mean, what the hell IS that, anyway? ;-) I guess if you don't find drowning slowly in a blissful wash of swirling, suffocating guitar textures to be an exhilarating experience, then Slowdive (and their fellow 'gazers) don't have much to offer you. But just listen to the way the chorus SURGES on "Catch the Breeze" off Just for a Day, and tell me you aren't touched...

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Well it sure ain't the sound of polka ! ;) Hey, I'll give Slowdive's "Catch The Breeze" (or almost anything else) a chance if I don't have to buy the record (Napster not being an option).

― Patrick, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

yeah, slowdive were the best of the shoegazers when it came to the sweeping crescendoes. 'pygmalion' is brilliant but then so is 'just for a day' and 'souvlaki' and the early eps. many a moonlit drive was soundtracked by 'just for a day' and 'nowhere'.

― keith, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

piece of shit for sad sorry loser tossers to think that they are really deep.

y'all should just listen to beast of burden.

― sorry looking bloke with thinning long hair...., Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Someone sent me a tape of Pygmalion three years ago, and I really liked it. The whole album is very good, but the first song, "Rutti", is mindbogglingly beautiful and an absolute masterpiece.

The experience of listening to that song for the first time is one I remember quite fondly: I was sitting in an electronic music studio in an empty mansion, late at night and in the middle of winter, and everything was dead quiet. I had just gotten the tape, and to be honest, wasn't expecting much (actually, what I was expecting turned out to be rather like Slowdive's earlier albums, which I heard soon after and didn't much like). So I was completely caught by surprise by what I heard: beautiful chords, hanging luminously in the air in the way that I thought that only Alan Sparhawk of Low could do. It was rich, understated, and utterly gorgeous. I won't bore you all with a play-by-play of my reaction to each new element in the song, but suffice it to say that I was continually amazed, especially when the shaker entered, about three or four minutes into the song, bringing the whole thing into time in the best possible way.

Whew!

I'm not much for Slowdive's other stuff, as I said, nor am I a big Mojave 3 fan, though Ask Me Tomorrow has a few decent songs. But I really think Pygmalion is a watershed album -- and "Rutti" is one of those moments in music where, in some unexpected synergy of skill and inspiration and who-knows-what, a group creates something of the very highest order.

-- Phil

― Phil, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Definitely classic. Though I acknowledge that MBV was "better" at the sorta thing they and Slowdive did, I find that I prefer listening to Slowdive more these days than MBV. Kinda like while I acknowledge that the Beatles were "better" than the Kinks, I'd still rather listen to the latter.

Hard to pinpoint why I've come to prefer Slowdive. Best I can think of is that their music just sounds prettier.

I'm agnostic about Mojave 3. Haven't heard that much and have liked what I have heard, but not blown away either.

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Of course never in the same league as MBV. But still very pleasant. I only have the 'Catch the Breeze' E.P. and that one has an effortless beauty. And well...they had the Queen of Indie singing for them. :) The rest of the shoegazers sucked though.

― Omar, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

mbv may have been 'objectively' better, but i don't really care about objective. i like mbv a lot, but i always liked slowdive more. the first 3 eps are fantastic esp catch the breeze. the first 2 albums very good too. pygmalion has its moments. mojave 3 were always disappointing though. didn't slowdive release a single as Eternal, on sarah records before they were slowdive?

― gareth, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I'm so sure we had this question about 6 months ago - but I cannae find it anywhere, do old posts eventually get deleted, or can someone remember where it is? I can remeber me and someone else being the only people to stand up for them when they were being completely slated by everyone else.

Have to agree about Pygmalian, an absolute blinder, and just so typical of Alan McGee to drop an act just when they make a masterpiece! Their other albums I can take or leave to be honest, but I find them reasonably pleasant to fall to sleep to (and that's actually a compliment.)

Anyone know what All Natural Lemon and Lime Flavors are up to?

― Chewshabadoo, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Bollocks, just looked it up and they have called it a day. Shame as they were the only band which actually did anything interesting with a strict shoegazing sound over the last few years, unless anyone has any tips?

― Chewshabadoo, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I guess it all depends on what you define as strict.

In terms of shoegazer-inspired groups that I do love of slightly more recent vintage -- Windy and Carl, happily, have established their own reputation beyond that particular label, though they'll happily confirm their out and out love for all the original greats. If you really like Slowdive, I recommend the excellent Bethany Curve. Landing are a newer group with a lot of promise. Other names coming to mind -- Study of the Lifeless, Polar, Mira, Deardarkhead, Flowchart (at least part of the time)...

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Windy and Carl are not what I'd call a strict shoegazing sound, neither would I call, say, Pygmalion - far too minimal seeing as the genre is a bastard offspring of maximal MBV. Thanks for the recommnedations, I'll have a check on the others, although I heard Bethany Curve on Peel a few years ago and wasn't impressed at the time, but I often change my opinions on music after a few listens.

― Chewshabadoo, Thursday, 17 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

isobella are complete slowdive rip-offs. basically anything on claire records is gonna owe a debt to slowdive. blind mr jones did a nice slowdive impression for a short time.

― keith, Friday, 18 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Slowdive are classic! Thee end ov "Catch the Breeze" sounds like the cocteau twins playing king crimson, or vice versa. It doesn't get much better than that for me. "Souvlaki" is ace too. My friend who deals in used records tells me that shoegazer 12"s are getting expensive! Who'd have thought it?

x0x0

― Norman Fay, Saturday, 19 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Did shoegazers wear shoes that were really THAT interesting?

― DG, Saturday, 19 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

All depends on the color.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 19 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I think pygmalion is a classic. The only other slovide song i am really fond of is shine. The really ethereal stuff, i havent heard anyone do it like that before. The rest of it, i can see why shoegazing got a bad name.

― martinnoble, Sunday, 20 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I've never heard Moose...but I want to. Sucks to be getting into shoegaze 12 years too late.

― JC, Sunday, 20 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

hey, what about Medicine?

their first album on creation, Shot Forth Self Living is, ahem, a shoegazer classic. seems to have been written out of the creation history though (not even mentioned in the Cavanagh book i think)

― gareth, Monday, 21 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Now we're talking! Medicine's first album is a total classic. Very good take on MBV. Ahem...good drug album too, so I've been told. :)

― Omar, Monday, 21 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

1. We do seem to cover everything in the end... I mean, I was thinking of posting this question a few months ago, but thought it would be laughed off the web.

2. Someone said that threads went missing. Indeed. What's happened to my 'Stephin Merritt' (Search & Destroy) thread?

3. I like the first Slowdive LP a lot.

― the pinefox, Monday, 21 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Bah, Medicine! Crap, all of it. Had the misfortune to see one of their earliest gigs, hated it, hated them from birth to death. Weak cheese and then some.

Brad Laner is a friendly guy to talk to, and his Electric Company stuff is flat out amazing (as is his production for bands like the astounding Furry Things). But Medicine? No, and no again.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 21 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Shame on you, Ned, and you were going up in my estimation until you blew it by dissing Medicine. "Shot forth..." is a great album, though listening to it with hindsight it sounds more psychedelic than shoegazing. Still...

Slowdive, f***ing loved 'em. Saw them supporting Ride in early '91, fantastic gig, could hear a word of vocals through their set, just guitars set on 'ethereal stun'. Nobody seems to have mentioned the transitional '5EP' EP, from late '93, when they stopped playing guitars and started to do more ambient/electronica stuff, very nice indeed. It all seemed to match up with what Chapterhouse were trying to do, but the 'House boys got Global Communication in to remix an album (which was great) rather than Reload (the same people) to remix a song (which was still great). I think they toured in late '93 together with Reload / GC as support. Now I'd say '93 was a better year than '94, early Seefeel records, the first Insides album, Spoonfed Hybrid etc....

Anyway, Slowdive - all their albums were great, though "Pygmalion" is the best, all the singles were great too. And to whoever mentioned Eternal, it was only second guitarist Christian who played on the one and only Eternal single on Sarah, but that's a cool semi-shoegazing single too. The first Mojave 3 album was a good late night listen but after the second one tried to hard to be Bob Dylan I gave up, I'm afraid.

Now Moose.... what a band! Their first two EPs and the first Revolver EP were the soundtrack to the best summer of my life. Happy days!

― Rob M, Tuesday, 22 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Hey, musically I don't care about anyone's estimation but my own, and if I had worthy experiences with Medicine I'd tell you -- AND I DIDN'T. EAT IT, BOY, EAT IT!

Good taste you've got there otherwise, though. ;-) Though Revolver? I don't know, they seemed fairly blah. Early Moose is worthy, however.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 22 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Slowdive was brilliant, although it took me a while to get into Pygmalion, and I was initially dissapointed with the first listening.. Mojave 3? well, it's not Slowdive, but the first release has momentary flickers of their former Slowdive-esque sound. I'm suprised nobody mentioned the AMAZING Ride album "Nowhere". Dreams Burn Down is one my my altime fav's.. just a thought. BTW.. to whoever mentioned it earlier.. I like 'Swirls' too.

― Trevor S, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

Revive!! The only Medicine song I really dig is the one where they strum the guitar once and just let it resonate for several minutes. It's the first song on one of their albums - you know the one I mean.

Aaaaanyway, I've been trying to get everything by this here Slowdive band I can get my hands on. The bloody Pygmalion record's been setting me back around 75 bucks on Ebay! But it's all worth it, 'caue it's fucking ACE!! Strange, though. I find My Bloody Valentine boring as church, so why the hell do I like their much-less-acclaimed knockoff artists so much better? Y'know: Slowdive, Ride, Bark Psychosis, Disco Inferno. Strange, strange musical tastes I got.

BEST SLOWDIVE LP: Sure, Souvlaki is pop first class, but that Pygmalion, man. She's a damn ambient MASTERPIECE. Best "ambient" "chillout" whateveryacallit album EVER! Who's with me??

Somebody do a Slowdive CD80 mix CD!! There's still loads of stuff I haven't heard yet. Morningrise?? The self-titled debut EP?? Holding Our Breath?? I wouldn't know it!!

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 23:27 (9 years ago) Permalink

I got the OOP Blue Day EP on ebay, do you want to do a CDR trade?

As for why you prefer Slowdive to MBV, my guess is it's more dream pop than shoegazey? That's my reason, anyhow, since in my book Cocteaus trump MBV.

― Leee Iacocca (Leee), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 23:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

Classic if only for "Souvlaki Space Station" alone, which sends me swooning.

Mojave 3? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....................

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 23:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Slowdive are excellent. Souvlaki is wonderful, like something between Loveless and Disintegration.

― Stupid (Stupid), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 23:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

Mojave 3 are lovely. I want to like Slowdive but the production sounds too dated and the overall sound too unicorn-y for me.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

Dated?

How could a person go through life thinking Slowdive's production sounds 'dated'? I mean... this would mean you couldn't appreciate ANYTHING from the 80s! I pity your existance.

― Stupid (Stupid), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:08 (9 years ago) Permalink

Hmm, well, I kinda have a soft spot for Stacey Q.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Hmm, well, I kinda have a soft spot for Stacey Q."

...you're a monster...

― Stupid (Stupid), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to Just For A Day and it sounds like it should be the soundtrack to Lord of the Rings.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:15 (9 years ago) Permalink

Sarah's got a point -- I'm a person who barely listens to any 80s music at all. I sort of hold my breath when I listen to Just for a day, but the other stuff sounds good.

― Leee Iacocca (Leee), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to Just For A Day and it sounds like it should be the soundtrack to Lord of the Rings.

Utterly befuddling?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:20 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Just for a Day" is the only CD I've ever sold back. Not that it was so bad, it was just, disappointing after the excellent EPs. I wrote them off after that and Souvlaki sounds a little too gothy now.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

I do not understand people who don't listen to music from the 80s.

As far as I'm concerned, music was INVENTED in the 80s (or mor specifially, with Joy Division). Anything before that is just proto-music.

― Stupid (Stupid), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I felt the same thing when I went back to listen to them a couple months ago. There's good dated and then there's bad dated, and uh.. some of their stuff would fall into the second category now, I'm afraid.

― may pang (maypang), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 306 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

just let them reunite and suck! jeezus

There would be other kinds of protests as a result.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 August 2012 21:08 (8 months ago) Permalink

hahahaha

well it is true that i haven't considered the second-order consequences of a reunion

― Thanks WEBSITE!! (Z S), Thursday, 30 August 2012 21:09 (8 months ago) Permalink

Neighbors say the masked gunman was a normal guy that just loved his family. "Times are tough, but sometimes when you can't get the guitar bliss you feel like you earned, especially in this economy, well I guess some people just snap"

― Evan, Thursday, 30 August 2012 21:15 (8 months ago) Permalink

Obama stole my grandma's Slowdive

― Poliopolice, Thursday, 30 August 2012 21:20 (8 months ago) Permalink

> shit like pale saints

steady...

― koogs, Thursday, 30 August 2012 22:17 (8 months ago) Permalink

float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, shit like pale saints..

― beautifully in with its outness (electricsound), Thursday, 30 August 2012 22:39 (8 months ago) Permalink

See this is why I'm wary of the taste of people who say their favourite showgaze band / the only good shoegaze band is Slowdive.

And let me reiterate, I don't dislike Slowdive! I own several of their albums!

It's just that when people who don't really like shoegaze slag off shoegaze, all those negative qualities they use to slag it off - droney, boring, repetitive, mindless prettiness, sexless, middle class. Slowdive are, like, the utter epitome of those qualities. They are quite quintessential of a view of shoegaze that 1) really quite annoys me and 2) doesn't represent anything of ~what I loved~ about shoegaze.

So when someone tells me that Slowdive were the best shoegaze band, I just think "you are looking for a very different thing in music than I am."

Also, if you are over the age of 15 and ~pretend to like~ any kind of music, you really are a tosser.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 08:11 (8 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, but who here's doing that?

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Friday, 31 August 2012 08:20 (8 months ago) Permalink

hmmm I'm way over 15 and I think to this day Slowdive is still, as back then, my favorite "shoegaze" band. I don't see how they epitomize "droney, boring, repetitive, mindless prettiness, sexless, middle class" - for me Souvlaki is the opposite of all that.

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Friday, 31 August 2012 08:28 (8 months ago) Permalink

for 2 years i sat there and pretended shit like pale saints, ride, swervedriver, and chapterhouse wasn't total crap, but eventually i saw the light. xp
― Poliopolice, Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:43 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 08:45 (8 months ago) Permalink

I took that to mean "tried to convince myself" which is fairly different I think. tbf I do not claim to have a window into the soul of Poliopolice

― it's-a me, irl (DJ Mencap), Friday, 31 August 2012 09:06 (8 months ago) Permalink

When I see people use a word - like "pretending" - I tend to think that they mean what they say, or they would have phrased it differently.

But I have this argument every time we talk about Shoegaze. That if someone thinks that Slowdive are the ~pinnacle of shoegaze~ and bands like Pale Saints are "crap" - that person is clearly looking for something so different in music than what I loved about shoegaze that it would be pointless for me to use their tastes as reference for anything meaningful to me.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 09:12 (8 months ago) Permalink

You mean you find Pales Saints are any less pretty, sexless and middle class? hmmmm...

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Friday, 31 August 2012 09:15 (8 months ago) Permalink

They are less *mindlessly* pretty - i.e. the prettiness in their music has a purpose, and is usually used as a counterpoint to psychedelic noise of confusion. They are definitely less sexless (rowr) and middle class I don't know about, but they were from Leeds instead of the Thames Valley so the Northern perspective was more interesting than yet another OxfordReadingLondon band.

Yes, yes, I'm being facetious, but their music had a scrappy spikiness amidst all the prettiness that I found texturally just much more interesting.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 09:20 (8 months ago) Permalink

Also Spoonfed Hybrid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mojave 3.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 09:21 (8 months ago) Permalink

Glad to see someone defending Pale Saints, a great band. I love the little motto on their "Flesh balloon" EP which read "Scene but not herd". So many great aspects to them - their roots in C86 indie (their first demo was reviewed in the short lived indie "Underground" mag from 87), the way they merged dreamy with spiky, the layers of sounds, Ian Masters' slightly skewed basslines, and Spoonfed Hybrid is one of my favourite albums ever. As shoegazing was at its height in 91 they really weren't there, their Northern slant meant they weren't seen to be with the Ride / Slowdive / Chapterhouse crowd. Certainly the inkies at the time never mentioned them in the same breath as the other "Scene that celebrates itself" bands.

― Rob M Revisited, Friday, 31 August 2012 10:57 (8 months ago) Permalink

Oh and pinnacle of shoegaze = Moose's first two EPs, imho. Hard to believe that 20 years after the fact people are still arguing about what shoegazing is / was.

― Rob M Revisited, Friday, 31 August 2012 11:08 (8 months ago) Permalink

Pale Saints toured with and had intra-band links to Lush! Hence their STCI connection. But Lush are another band who have been unfortunately and unfairly pushed down the shoegaze canon.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 11:32 (8 months ago) Permalink

As shoegazing was at its height in 91 they really weren't there, their Northern slant meant they weren't seen to be with the Ride / Slowdive / Chapterhouse crowd. Certainly the inkies at the time never mentioned them in the same breath as the other "Scene that celebrates itself" bands

The way I recall it, it was Ride - Ride EP, Lush - Mad Love EP, and Pale Saints - The Comforts of Madness all released in quick succession at the start of 1990 and shown on Snub TV and those bands were often talked about together. The rest came later.

― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 31 August 2012 11:44 (8 months ago) Permalink

Don't you think Poliopolice was using the word "pretending" in hindsight? Like now that he realized he is very over those bands and his change of heart makes him feel like he was fooling himself the whole time. Just a guess. I mean when I hear people say pretend in that context they generally aren't letting you in to some conscious poseuring they'd participated in at some point.

― Evan, Friday, 31 August 2012 12:46 (8 months ago) Permalink

yeah, you're taking it too literally. by the time i was into this stuff, the whole shoegaze thing was over by nearly a decade-- therefore, not en vogue at all. when i said 'pretend', it's not that i was trying to attach myself to a scene (because there was none by then), but that i was trying hard to appreciate that which was described to me as great examples of that genre after having gotten heavily into MBV and Medicine first. for that reason, i wanted to like Ride and Pale Saints so much, until i discovered, after much effort and money wasted, that there was really not much depth or staying power to most of them; they were just bands whose names were repeated, perhaps because there simply weren't that many notable names in the genre to begin with.

so does this mean, as you charge, that i don't like really shoegaze because i think the vast majority of bands in that genre were kind of bad, and thus i'm a shoegaze poseur and have no credibility? i'm willing to concede that some people might think that, but as least i can honestly say that i spent an extended period exploring the genre thoroughly, and drew my own conclusion that most of it really isn't that good. that's just my opinion; no one has to agree with it!

― Poliopolice, Friday, 31 August 2012 13:29 (8 months ago) Permalink

No, what I'm trying to get through to you is that "I don't like this" is not the same as "this is bad."

Saying "this band has no staying power" when there are people ITT who still get those records out occasionally, 20 years later, is just a tad of an arrogant thing to say. It's fine for you to not like it. But you don't get to redefine the boundaries of a genre that was established 20 years ago, just to suit your particular tastes.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 31 August 2012 13:32 (8 months ago) Permalink

No, what I'm trying to get through to you is that "I don't like this" is not the same as "this is bad."

Yes it is. When someone says "this is bad", it is implicit that what they are really saying is "I don't like this." All opinions are relative.

― my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Friday, 31 August 2012 13:39 (8 months ago) Permalink

Did I miss something? When did Poliopolice try to change everyone's opinion about shoegaze? Is he also the one forcing Slowdive to reunite? Poliopolice, just let shoegaze be!

― Evan, Friday, 31 August 2012 13:46 (8 months ago) Permalink

But seriously he is just talking about his own opinions on shoegaze. As much as I disagree about the horrible things he says about Swervedriver!

― Evan, Friday, 31 August 2012 13:47 (8 months ago) Permalink

Shoegaze isn't really a genre tho

― albvivertine, Friday, 31 August 2012 14:08 (8 months ago) Permalink

Yes it is. When someone says "this is bad", it is implicit that what they are really saying is "I don't like this." All opinions are relative.

It's like squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles---not all rectangles are squares.

If you say, "This is bad," then you are always saying, "I don't like this." (Although, I would argue against that.)

However, when you say, "I don't like this," you aren't always saying, "This is bad."

Katy Perry is bad = I don't like Katy Perry.

I don't like Led Zeppelin /= Led Zeppelin is bad.

...I'm just arguing to argue.

― dronestreet, Friday, 31 August 2012 14:48 (8 months ago) Permalink

droney = good thing, boring = good thing, repetitive = good thing, mindless prettiness = good thing, sexless = good thing, middle class = pretty meaningless thing in relation to music

― just one little Tayto (Noodle Vague), Friday, 31 August 2012 14:54 (8 months ago) Permalink

At this point I would pay good money to see see slowdive play a full reunion set consisting entirely of them arguing about taste and the semantics of not liking things. And I would pay even more if I knew Neil halstead didn't want to do it.

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Friday, 31 August 2012 15:13 (8 months ago) Permalink

― albvivertine, Friday, 31 August 2012 15:29 (8 months ago) Permalink

A like is like a like

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Friday, 31 August 2012 15:31 (8 months ago) Permalink

At this point I would pay good money to see see slowdive play a full reunion set consisting entirely of them arguing about taste and the semantics of not liking things. And I would pay even more if I knew Neil halstead didn't want to do it.

"Hi, we're Slowdive. We really don't want to play this show, so here's Pygmalion in its entirety."

― Elvis Telecom, Friday, 31 August 2012 15:57 (8 months ago) Permalink

I think you missed a joke somewhere down the line.

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Friday, 31 August 2012 16:02 (8 months ago) Permalink

> The way I recall it, it was Ride - Ride EP, Lush - Mad Love EP, and Pale Saints - The Comforts of Madness all released in quick succession at the start of 1990 and shown on Snub TV and those bands were often talked about together. The rest came later.

Ride and Pale Saints played together (along with Teenage Fanclub and Pastels) at ULU (17 nov '89) just before those first eps and toured together afterwards (i think) to the point where ride covered Sight Of You on their first peel session (feb 1990)

― koogs, Friday, 31 August 2012 17:29 (8 months ago) Permalink

but this:

"Also Spoonfed Hybrid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mojave 3."

is a pile of wrong 8)

― koogs, Friday, 31 August 2012 17:32 (8 months ago) Permalink

No, what I'm trying to get through to you is that "I don't like this" is not the same as "this is bad."

I don't disagree with you-- and honestly i'm finding it a little perplexing that you think i'm trying to tag all the wikipedia articles for Pale Saints and Swervedriver with the category "Objectively Bad Artists from the 90s." it's just an opinion; you are free to disagree, just as all people are free to disagree about anything. i'm fine with admitting that my opinion on anything is not the be-all-end-all, and that i may have wrongly maligned Chapterhouse. :)

Nevertheless, I think it's only fair to point out that your line of argument would also hold that guys like Thomas Kinkade are good artists-- it's just that people who don't like Kinkade don't like that kind of art. I'm actually quite fine with this; I consider art completely subjective. Even if 100% people think it's terrible, it's still subjective to me because there's no objective way to measure artistic quality. I've actually had people try to convince me that Thomas Kinkade is objectively bad; i find this proposition ridiculous.

― Poliopolice, Friday, 31 August 2012 19:10 (8 months ago) Permalink

"you're not allowed not to reform" lol call the whaaammbulance

― blank, Friday, 31 August 2012 19:14 (8 months ago) Permalink

This is all very entertaining. I might have to listen to some of these records again later. As someone who always thought there was little interesting about Slowdive after Alison and She Calls, I really should listen again to Pygmalion. Is there any substance to the reforming thing, or are you all just winding each other up? I forget.

Chapterhouse were bad bad, though, yeah?

― kraudive, Friday, 31 August 2012 19:27 (8 months ago) Permalink

pygmalion is incredible. "rutti" is the best opening track on any album EVER

― Mr. Snrub, Friday, 31 August 2012 21:07 (8 months ago) Permalink

I know Pygmalion gets most of the hipster love but for me the second album is the one.

― my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Friday, 31 August 2012 21:23 (8 months ago) Permalink

Interesting. I don't remember any of it being as stunning as those first magnificent EPs. I shall listen again.

Hipsters don't tend to know what a Slowdive is at all in my experience.

― kraudive, Friday, 31 August 2012 21:39 (8 months ago) Permalink

All three are great albums, and they are all very different from each other.

― Poliopolice, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:05 (8 months ago) Permalink

Yes, Rutti is lovely and sounds a lot like "Laughing Stock" TT.

― kraudive, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:47 (8 months ago) Permalink

Chapterhouse were bad bad, though, yeah?

― kraudive, Friday, August 31, 2012 3:27 PM (3 hours ago)

No "Whirlpool" is great!

― Evan, Friday, 31 August 2012 23:10 (8 months ago) Permalink

Ride and Pale Saints played together (along with Teenage Fanclub and Pastels) at ULU (17 nov '89)

There's a pic from this gig in the booklet of Deep Fried Fanclub and I frequently used to cry myself to sleep in the late 90s that I was born 5 years too late.

― Colonel Poo, Friday, 31 August 2012 23:13 (8 months ago) Permalink

That does sound incredible. I saw Ride touring Going Blank Again in 91 - it was my first proper gig. Looking back they weren't so great. I thought for a long time Ride didn't ever really cut it live but I've read so many people say different that I guess I must have caught them on an off night.

I never saw Slowdive and demand they come back NOW to show me how good they were.

― kraudive, Friday, 31 August 2012 23:29 (8 months ago) Permalink

Oh God Avalyn I & II are so great.

I think I wrote on another thread that Avalyn II sounds very, very good on the wrong speed - 33 instead of at 45.

― kraudive, Friday, 31 August 2012 23:33 (8 months ago) Permalink

I don't remember any of it being as stunning as those first magnificent EPs.

― beautifully in with its outness (electricsound), Saturday, 1 September 2012 00:33 (8 months ago) Permalink

the early stuff, though i like it, sometimes gets really close to being borderline new-agey

― Poliopolice, Saturday, 1 September 2012 01:38 (8 months ago) Permalink

I saw Ride touring Going Blank Again in 91

Must have been 92 (or not Going Blank Again)

― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Saturday, 1 September 2012 12:54 (8 months ago) Permalink

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