Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

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He's hardly ever been mentioned here, but in my humble opinion Frank Zappa was one of the towering figures in late-twentieth century American music. He was an impeccable, perfectionistic musician responsible for some of the most amazing and ahead-of-its-time music. From his first album ("Freak Out" in 1966) to his sadly-early death in 1993, he continually pushed the musical envelope throughout amazingly prolific career, combining elements of rock, jazz, avant-garde music concrete and even modern classical music (Varèse, Stravinsky, von Webern, etc.). Lyrically, Zappa was one of the most amazingly astute social commentators on American life (God, what a field day he would have had a _field day_ with the imbecile Chimp in the White House now!)

On the other hand, some contend that Zappa was a musical con-artist, a pretentious artiste peddling scatological, misanthropic lyrics. Or, as one of my friends put it, "Zappa fans are just pretentious Dead Heads."

So, what do you think?

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I own a couple of albums and know some hardcore fans -- generally, though, I find him easier to regard than to enjoy. I won't doubt his compositional range, but even so.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

the fact that he would have a _field day_ with george w. just proves zappa's tendency for cheap, easy humour. that said, his music is often gleefully hilarious and i thoroughly love 'apostrophe' to the point that i'm just now regretting leaving it off my forty albums. every song on that is fantastic.

― ethan, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Weird that this should come up because I've just been contemplating Zappa again after picking up used copies of You Are What You Is and One Size Fits All the other day. I'd have to say classic just because he release so much good stuff, mostly in the early days. One Size Fits All fits this, as do the aforementioned Apostrophe (though I preferred Overnite Sensation just a bit more, it's pretty close), Freak Out, Absolutely Free, Hot Rats, Lumpy Gravy and We're Only In it For the Money...virtually no filler on any of these.

On the other hand, stuff released in the late seventies and through the eighties was often fairly puzzling. Musically speaking, it was incredibly well-played, and the lyrics had a bitter sting to them that you couldn't help but admire a good chunk of the time. By this time, though, he got into a really nasty groove that went past obvious satire to the point where you weren't quite sure that he wasn't being serious anymore: how many times can you release an album filled to the gills with songs about big breasts, blow jobs, drugs, and various other degeneracies until any claims to satire are dismissed? In a lot of ways it became a one-note dirty joke, and while it remained clever it became redundant and increasingly transparent. Moments of brilliance were still there: Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch was actually quite solid if you jettisoned the novelty hit single. The Yellow Shark proved that the man knew how to compose music (though Jazz From Hell had already proved that, it was a bit on the sterile side). More than anything, this became a period where Zappa was more notable just for the sheer amount of product he cranked out. That's not enough to change my vote, though. Still classic.

― Sean Carruthers, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

You know, Zappa is a classic to me, but not as *holy crap* amazing as I once thought. People really give him too much credit for his weird music. To me, it seems natural to write that sort of crap. It comes from not being able to focus very well, or not wanting to bother, perhaps as a sort of gimmick! You'll notice his stripped down songs on "Zoot Allures", "Freak Out" and "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" are booooring. He's not very good at writing real (what most people would consider "normal") songs. "Cheapnis" is one exception, though it is full of weird changes and "humorous" subject matter, it does feel like a good rock song.

If you bother to learn how to write music, write a big, run-on sentence like Zappa did so you can just sit back and hire super-professional musicians to play it later, as a challenge to their virtuosity and a feather in all of your caps! And then mix and match your paragraphs, so you never have to start a new book (since it's such a mess to begin with) and have people call your entire body of work a brilliant intertwined "concept"!

Music that is composeurish is rather dull, unless it is actually goodlike Mozart, Vivaldi or Beethoven, when the orchestration is so good, you don't notice the minutia unless you concentrate and are then blown away on a whole different level. Zappa falls way short of that. Everything is "hey, listen to this little weird thing" *insert cowbell rattle followed by kazoo*. (This reminds me of Metallica, by the way; I can hear the metronome ticking in the background. That's bad music! Is that supposed to be emotion? Hmmm...)

I prefer the Grateful Dead to most Zappa, with the exception of "Apostrophe" & "Sheik Yerbouti". Some others that are okay, but by no means what the fans make it out to be, are "The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life", "Yellow Shark", "Joe's Garage" and "You Are What You Is". I also have "Live At The Ritz" (or something?) that I never listen to. It is some of the most boring shit I own, except for the one track "I Am The Slime" which I don't have on any other recording... Which album has "Zombie Woof"? That'sa good one, actually.

Anyway, I think what I'm trying to say is that it's a lot harder to make a cohesive song that has some emotion rather than filling a music sheet with black dots and having Steve Vai and Anton Figg play it for you while you play composer genius. The main guy from Jethro Tull is like that, too, but I think he actually has a reason to be, since it's not 1/2 just free improvisation and studio overdubs.

Of course, if you are a fan of his music, you'll be ridiculously offended by the notion that he's nota super genius, even if you have no musical knowledge or skill yourself as a source to draw upon for judgement, and tell me to piss off or something for daring to compare my unfamous non-music-reading sensibilities to the god of avant garde. He definitely gets tons of points for being first. Who knows if I would be able to lay on a couch, imagining constantly changing music patterns if he hadn't shown me how (or did he)? I do it all the time, but it drives me nuts because songs that wander off into insanity are boring. Playing simple and well is difficult. I think Zappa released too much of too little value (except to those fanatics of course). But, I still think he's a classic for the good stuff he did put out and for trying to do something interesting (even if not really very funny at all, just weird and kinda perverted) with music.

― , Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

'zomby woof' and 'i am the slime' are on the same album, 'overnite sensation', which is really great. buy it.

hey, nobody's mentioned 'hot rats' yet, perhaps his greatest album?

― ethan, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I did! One of my faves of the early period.

― Sean Carruthers, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

There is (or was recently) an article on The Wire website by a writer who really hated Zappa, and I had never heard anybody who really hated him before. While I really like a lot of stuff like "Weasels Ripped My Flesh", "Uncle Meat", "Apostrophe", and even some parts of "Sheik Yerbouti", a lot of the criticisms hit home for me. He really did end up being a lot of the things he parodied. Too bad, really.

Oh, check out his autobiography. It's got some good laughs. Spoo!

― Dave M., Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I think Hot Rats is boring.

Interestingly I don't really feel qualified to respond to this thread any more, despite owning a load of Zappa. I haven't listened to any of it in more than a year.

I think my favorites used to be Apostrophe'/Overnite Sensation (esp. "Montana" - "I think I'll raise me up some DENNIL FLOSS"), the guitar box (esp. the track with the bouzouki), parts of Joe's Garage (mostly for the guitar sound, cf. 'Watermelon in Easter Hay', and because I get an enormous kick out of hearing the Ceeeeentral Scrooooaaaatinizer), One Size Fits All, much of Zoot Allures and Lather (I get an infantile kick out of the Stravinsky namedrop on "Titties 'n' Beer", but that's just a perk).

― Josh, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Utter, utter, utter, utter...dud. One of the most overrated artists of all time. Penman's excellent hatchet-job in The Wire has already been mentioned, he's say it all, have nothing to add.

― Omar, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Was it him who named his kid 'Moon Unit'? If so, dud.

― DG, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Total DUD - "the single most untalented man in rock" or whatever it was Lou Reed once said (tho' I notice Louis kissed and made up once FZ was safely brown bread...) Ugly, unfunny lyrics, pointless musicianly grandstanding, total lack of quality control, etc. etc. Tiny bonus points for 'Trout Mask Replica', Wild Man Fischer, the alb cover to 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh', the first side of Hot Rats and the title 'Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue'. And that's it.

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

IT'S THE BLIMP 2 -

- following the awesome tribute night to zappa and beefheart at THE CLUNY - where was the fuckin' WIRE ? - another night is planned on thursday 17th may at newcastle arts centre - featuring ex- zappa/beefheart drummer jimmy carl black and the muffin men, zoviet france, hounds of the hill and many others - zappa and beefheart classics fucked over bigstyle - like susan george in straw dogs !

― geordie racer, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

i'm not really into the idea of zappa. too much 'virtuosity' and 'cleverness'. and from the early 70s onwards, i'm imagining too many guitar twiddlybits?

but. having said that, Peaches In Regalia is very good, doesn't seem forced like a lot of his stuff (although the rest of Hot Rats is booring)

Absolutely Free is 'wacky' and 'clever' and 'over the top', but on that album it actually works very well, is a great album

everything else i'm kind of indifferent to.

what was the teddy & his patches thing, erm, Suzy Creamcheese? that was good.

― gareth, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Actually, Moon Unit still happily calls herself Moon Unit — ditto Dweezil, ditto Achmed — which points up the absolutely least dud side of Zappa: his happy personal life, relationship with kids etc (compare/contrast Zowie Bowie = Joey Jones, or whatever). Plus she was central to the only FZ artefact I've unforcedly actually liked (as opposed to guardedly "appreciated"): the Valley Girl single.

Tadeusz says astute, but I've never thought FZ was over-and-above astute — just, y'know, run-of-the-mill astute. Never heard an FZ commentary that I hadn't already heard elsewhere (not nec. heard elsewhere in pop /rock, but in Letterman or Alex Cockburn, or just somewhere... ): I think the prob. is he NEVER turned his laser-eye on himself and the wackness of his dreams/fears. "Astute" somewhat excepted, all the good words TS uses are true — but (to me) so what. FZ is just too guarded, so that's how he makes me.

― mark s, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Wow, this place moves fast. Set this thread up a week ago, and it's at the bottom of the heap already. Hmmm.

Anyway, my own thoughts: I tend to like Zappa's earlier stuff most (just about everything he did with the Mothers of Invention), plus a great deal of his late seventies/early eighties post-Mothers stuff. Faves would have to be Apostrophe (as someone upthread said, so gleeful), Freak Out!, Hot Rats, Joe's Garage, and Läther (because it's so over-the-top, has all of the best bits from Sheikh Yerbouti and Orchestral Favorites, and that cow on the cover with the Zappa goatee-and-beard). Guilty favorites would be Sheikh Yerbouti (great pop songs and awesome guitarwork mixed with pure wank and pointlessly stupid lyrics) and Thing Fish (mainly because it brings together everything that was good and was bad about Zappa). Largely agree that he tapered off towards the end, when he was releasing albums largely because he could (and because he'd gotten that damn Synclavier doing music by himself, without anyone or anything to keep him or his sketchier ideas in check).

As for the astuteness -- I guess some of that's from my having read a lot of his interviews as well as his autobiography. His lyrics are a grab-bag of the funny, the astute, the obscene and the flat-out stupid ... even he admitted that a lot of his lyrics and plots (esp. Joe's Garage) were stupid.

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 21 May 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Can I just say quickly that Zappa is cod weirdo pseudo-freak out obscurist balderdash for muso's with no soul to wank over whilst the rest of us bite our tongues whilst searching frantically for a tune or vibe to grip. Insincere rubbish written by someone who had a deep musical understanding but not the wit to realise it.

'Hot Rats' is good though, and is it 'Suzy Cream Cheese' (?). Actually, Zap ain't so bad. I mean the guy did twiddle the knobs on 'Troutmask' right? It's just he's so fucking odd; but for the sake of being odd, you know. Whereas with Loonheart, you know that he is genuinely fucking out there, Zappa is always trying so damn hard.

With this is mind: Dud.

― Roger Fascist, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

how could you not like frank? he looks like a hippie. Classic for that.

― JUlio Desouza, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Disclaimer: I have a very spotty knowledge of Frank Zappa's catalogue, and most of what I have heard has been heard over the radio or while visiting friends. I have a sense of frustration with Zappa. He seems to have all of this talent of some sort, but why does he choose to make so much awful music with it? His social commentary doesn't impress me too much, though I guess it meant more when I was in high school. The scatological stuff I've heard (e.g. Joe's Garage) bores me. Still, like many non-fans above, I have some favorite songs. I like "You Are What You Is," the song, quite a bit. I like some of what I have heard from Freakout. More dud than classic, to me, but I haven't heard enough to make a serious judgment. (I've heard enough to know that I'm not interested enough to want to spend money on any of his CDs though.)

― DeRayMi, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

True story: about 12 years ago I exchanged a series of tapes with a work colleague / fellow music lover (like you do). At first, he couldn't get his head around rap at all, but the Public Enemy stuff clicked with him and he suddenly got really excited about hip hop. Turning to his own collection to try and find a parallel, he came up with ... a Zappa mixtape! (which I've still got)

― Jeff W, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I recently bought "Strictly Commerical: The Best of Frank Zappa" mostly because I've had "Let's Make The Water Turn Black" in my head since I first heard it. Quite disappointed with the rest of the album and the version of LMTWTB is different from the one I heard which was instrumental with trumpets replacing the singing and was impossibly ace. The rest of his stuff is hit and miss. I rode home stoned the other day with "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow" on my walkman and found myself laughing uncontrollably hard at the lyrics. Listneing back the next day, I found it hard to see why they were so funny at the time.

― dog latin, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

4 years pass...

So... Nobody here has a sense of humor unless they're STONED??

All of you hate fun and sweet sweet guitar solos. REVIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssjVez9UA4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew3Dq82Q1bQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCG4Caw7IIc

― Andi Mags, Monday, 28 May 2007 04:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_i_HVBD9ks

Alternate '73 version of Montana with better video quality but lower sound. KILLER solo.

― Andi Mags, Monday, 28 May 2007 04:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

ahhhhh thanks

― cutty, Monday, 28 May 2007 04:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

whoa i just clicked on that "last zappa interview" video--really sad

― cutty, Monday, 28 May 2007 04:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

fuckin ian underwood!

― cutty, Monday, 28 May 2007 04:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

I haven't brought myself to watch that yet, but there are 5 sections of the Zappa bio from BBC on there too, which I highly recommend.

― Andi Mags, Monday, 28 May 2007 05:11 (5 years ago) Permalink

That video of "You are what you is" made the 8 year old me extremely nauseous when it originally aired.

― Sparkle Motion, Monday, 28 May 2007 16:08 (5 years ago) Permalink

4 years pass...

I just read about this morning--no recollection of it playing any festivals here, and I can't find a listing on IMDB.

― clemenza, Sunday, 4 March 2012 13:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

”both” is the answer to the this thread

― the wild eyed boy from soundcloud (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 4 March 2012 18:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

haha, otm

― Steamtable Willie (WmC), Sunday, 4 March 2012 19:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

So much material that there are extremes of both.

― c'est ne pas un car wash (snoball), Sunday, 4 March 2012 20:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Full catalogue to be reissued by Universal this year, apparently including some new mastering jobs. (By Joe Travers? No details given.)

My first question is whether Gail and the ZFT retains the right to keep on mining the extensive vaults and putting stuff out themselves.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Tuesday, 12 June 2012 21:30 (11 months ago) Permalink

hmmm, i seem to recall that the mixes of a lot of those 90s reissues had been futzed w/ by Zappa? wonder if these are the "original" mixes or whatever.

― tylerw, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 21:43 (11 months ago) Permalink

RIP Rykodisc.

― Electro-Shock Rory (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 12 June 2012 21:47 (11 months ago) Permalink

I hope they're the "unfutzed" versions.

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 21:50 (11 months ago) Permalink

I dunno - the original version of "We're Only In It For the Money" is pretty horrible, really

― frogbs, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 21:53 (11 months ago) Permalink

sonically, I mean

― frogbs, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 21:54 (11 months ago) Permalink

Would like somebody to explain me the difference between remixing and remastering in the context of this news. When FZ did the CD releases of Ruben and the Jets and WOIIFTM with new bass & drum tracks, it's safe to say he did new mixes. There are fairly radical differences in LP and CD mixes of Hot Rats. But I imagine that most of the CD catalogue consisted of digital transfer of the original vinyl masters, right, without much fiddling around?

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

You have it right, Remastering is tracking down the best possible format of the final mixes of an album (in Zappa's case probably 1/2 or 1/4 inch analog tape reels and adding equalisation and/or compression & limiting to get the best overall sound and dynamics onto whichever format the recording is going to end up on. Of course the potential abuse of the process is a big issue in the digital age.

Remixing is loading the original unmixed master tapes onto whatever the relevant playback machine would be and repeating the process of mixing the album from scratch.

― MaresNest, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:15 (11 months ago) Permalink

The regular cds of Freak Out have a bunch of digital echo Frank added in the 80s. The reissue entitled MOFO has the og mix.

― Electro-Shock Rory (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:18 (11 months ago) Permalink

I remember reading that he apparently dicked about with recordings other than Hot Rats and WOIIFTM too, that's where the UMRK Approved master tag came in.

― MaresNest, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:19 (11 months ago) Permalink

I dunno - the original version of "We're Only In It For the Money" is pretty horrible, really

the version on cd with added slap bass is a whole new level of awful though

― zappi, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:38 (11 months ago) Permalink

hmmm, i seem to recall that the mixes of a lot of those 90s reissues had been futzed w/ by Zappa? wonder if these are the "original" mixes or whatever.

"futzed" is putting it mildly.

Reissues
In 1984, Zappa prepared a remix of Cruising with Ruben & the Jets for its compact disc reissue and the vinyl box set The Old Masters I. The remix featured new rhythm tracks recorded by bassist Arthur Barrow and drummer Chad Wackerman, much as the 1984 remix of We're Only in It for the Money had featured. Zappa stated "The master tapes for Ruben and the Jets were in better shape, but since I liked the results on We're Only in it For the Money, I decided to do it on Ruben too. But those are the only two albums on which the original performances were replaced. I thought the important thing was the material itself."[2]
After the remixing was announced, a $13 million lawsuit was filed against Zappa by Jimmy Carl Black, Bunk Gardner and Don Preston, who were later joined by Ray Collins, Art Tripp and Motorhead Sherwood, increasing the claim to $16.4 million, stating that they had received no royalties from Zappa since 1969.[2]
In 2009, the original mix of the album was released as part of a compilation entitled Greasy Love Songs.[6]

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:40 (11 months ago) Permalink

zappa was so nuts about that sort of thing, it seems. i remember reading something about the creation of "shut and play your guitar" (i think) where he would put guitar solos from, say, 1974 into a recording from 1981.

― tylerw, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:43 (11 months ago) Permalink

He would lift guitar tracks from live recordings and drop them into studio based stuff, he did a whole track by layering elements from different recordings, Tink Runs Amok? He called it Xenochrony iirc.

― MaresNest, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:51 (11 months ago) Permalink

XENOCHRONY! Exciting. Bands that never were.

― tylerw, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:53 (11 months ago) Permalink

"Rubber Shirt," from Sheik Yerbouti:

SPECIAL NOTE: The bass part is extracted from
a four track master of a performance from Goteborg,
Sweden 1974 which I had Patrick O"Hearn overdub on
a medium tempo guitar solo track in 4/4. The noted
chosen were more or less specified during the overdub
session, and so it was not completely an improvised
"bass solo." A year and a half later, the bass track was
peeled off the Swedish master and transferred to one
track of another studio 24 track master for a slow song
in 11/4. The result of this experimental re-synchronization
(the same technique was used on the Zoot Allures
album in "Friendly Little Finger") is the piece you are
listening to. All of the sensitive, interesting interplay
between the bass and drums never actually happened ...
also note, the guitar solo section of the song "Yo' Mama"
on side four was done the same way.

One of my favorite Sheik Yerbouti tracks.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Tuesday, 12 June 2012 22:59 (11 months ago) Permalink

I was just to talking to a big Zappaphile firend of mine, and he mentioned that some of the other "futzing" was undoing vintage edit jobs done to fit lp time constraints. He cited these two (and was only partially wrong):

Wiki on Hot Rats:

In 1987 Zappa remixed Hot Rats for re-issue on Compact Disc. "Willie the Pimp" is edited differently during the introduction and guitar solo. "The Gumbo Variations" has 4 minutes of additional material including an introduction and guitar and saxophone solo sections which were cut from the vinyl LP version. Piano and flute which were buried the LP mix of "Little Umbrellas" are prominent on the CD. Other differences include significant changes to the overall ambiance and dynamic range. The original mix was reissued in 2009 as a limited edition audiophile LP by Classic Records.

Wiki on Weasels...:

The CD version of the album features different versions of "Didja Get Any Onya?" and "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Sexually Aroused Gas Mask", which featured music edited out of the LP versions. Some of this extra music was used (in a different studio recording) as the backing track for "The Blimp" on the Captain Beefheart album Trout Mask Replica, produced by Frank Zappa.

― Electro-Shock Rory (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 13 June 2012 01:16 (11 months ago) Permalink

the version on cd with added slap bass is a whole new level of awful though

― zappi

I was trying to youtube some songs off it a few years back, and the only versions that came up were from this, which I hadn't been aware of before, and I was seriously appalled. Especially since the original WOIIFTM is one of my all-time faves.

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Wednesday, 13 June 2012 12:04 (11 months ago) Permalink

Skipping 23 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Listening to this for the very first time, and grinning like an idiot. The side of Roxy and Elsewhere containing "Echidna" is one of my favorites, and this nails it beautifully. Thanks, WmC!

― Soccer mom, hopeless and lost, in utter despair (Dan Peterson), Thursday, 14 June 2012 15:01 (11 months ago) Permalink

Agreed with most of the above - Uncle Meat is such a frustrating album for exactly this reason. You can hear so much brilliance on there, but its also the point where he feels the need to ruin every beautiful thing he ever wrote with goofy vocals or terrible instrumentation or boring snippets of dialogue - I dig dudes that try to challenge their audience, but I feel like FZ just did it for its own sake. "Dog Breath" would be such an amazing composition if they just did it somewhat straight!!

― frogbs, Thursday, 14 June 2012 15:09 (11 months ago) Permalink

xpost

My pleasure! That Ambrosius album is just gorgeous, but some days I think Music by Frank Zappa by the Omnibus Wind Ensemble is even better. Too bad it's not on Spotify, but here is a short playlist of four of the pieces --

Inca Roads/Uncle Meat/No. 7/Black Page #2

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Thursday, 14 June 2012 15:20 (11 months ago) Permalink

Uncle Meat is a perfect album, imo, incl the lyrics and vocals.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Thursday, 14 June 2012 15:23 (11 months ago) Permalink

Yep, I love Uncle Meat to death. Sprawling, yeah, but wonderful. I just watched this for the first time; I don't know anything about the Token Of His Extreme DVD.

― Soccer mom, hopeless and lost, in utter despair (Dan Peterson), Thursday, 14 June 2012 15:26 (11 months ago) Permalink

Uncle Meat is definitely one of my favorites too, don't really see how it's ruined

― Moodles, Thursday, 14 June 2012 17:03 (11 months ago) Permalink

I think my favorite FZ, in terms of writing, performance & production is Inca Roads

― WARS OF ARMAGEDDON (Karaoke Version) (Sparkle Motion), Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:27 (11 months ago) Permalink

I think my main problem with Zappa is that his jokes aren't funny

― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:31 (11 months ago) Permalink

What about the snorks?

― timellison, Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:33 (11 months ago) Permalink

Lots of them were up until about 74.

xpost

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:33 (11 months ago) Permalink

dunno what compelled Zappa to rip off the Smurfs

― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:34 (11 months ago) Permalink

"Ruben Sano was 19 when he quit the group to work on his car" = funny

― timellison, Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:34 (11 months ago) Permalink

Lots of them were up until about 74.

Bingo, though I did like some of the bizarre robo-sex scenes in Joe's Garage for their pure bizarreness

― frogbs, Thursday, 14 June 2012 18:56 (11 months ago) Permalink

my drummer's impression of FZ in the studio for this track: "Come on, Roy - sing that way we all hate":

― decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 14 June 2012 19:02 (11 months ago) Permalink

Man, that clip cracks me up. Grinning from ear to ear.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 June 2012 19:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

Lots of them were up until about 74.

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap),

OTM. I think the mid-70s turning point was the break with Herb Cohen and the beginning of Endless Grief with Warner Bros., which pushed him the rest of the way into total humanity-hatred. (The first push being his "obscenity" bust at Studio Z.) His lyrics never carried much fond regard from the beginning, but they really seemed to start being etched in acid from about '76-77. I wonder what kind of person he would have turned out as if not for those two events.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Thursday, 14 June 2012 19:10 (11 months ago) Permalink

Getting knocked offstage/seriously injured in Montreaux couldn't've helped either

― Race Against Rockism (Myonga Vön Bontee), Thursday, 14 June 2012 20:05 (11 months ago) Permalink

Did he ever voice an opinion re:"Smoke On The Water"?

― Electro-Shock Rory (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 14 June 2012 20:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

Early Zappa: Freak Out!, Absolutely Free, We're Only In It For the Money and Lumpy Gravy are still my favorites. Love that OG Mothers band. First time I ever heard "Absolutely Free" I was 100% in love, tho I never found anything else by FZ that equaled it for me. I think "Brown Shoes Don't Make It" is his peak, and "Duke of Prunes" and the accompanying suite/psych freak-out/Stravinsky quotes is probably the best thing he's ever done. I worshiped this stuff in high school.

Late 60's/Early 70's Zappa: Feels like most of this is culled from live performances, live experiments, etc. You can probably just watch "200 Motels" and get the gist of what he was going for with this. Love that movie, and some of the songs are really wonderful, ironic 70's stoner rock jams. Flo & Eddie are great additions to the band!

70's Zappa: More live stuff, studio experiments. Lots of great stuff, most of it depending on how much you enjoy comedy fusion jazz. First time I ever heard "Sheik Yerbouti" I really hated it, but every time after that I totally loved it. Probably for this reason I haven't really delved into too much else from this era. The Terry Bozzio stuff on that album owns.

80's Zappa: Don't know anything past "You Are What You Is", which has some great 80's-relevant social commentary. Anti-right wing, anti-war, anti-Mud Club, anti-religious right, etc.

Alas, my heart lies with the 60's stuff.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 14 June 2012 20:45 (11 months ago) Permalink

Does anyone else love Apostrophe?

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 14 June 2012 20:56 (11 months ago) Permalink

I LOVE Apostrophe.

My heart lies with the post- Flo and Eddie/ pre- disillusionment years. Say, 72-77.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 June 2012 20:58 (11 months ago) Permalink

I'm kind of cool to Apostrophe. It's ok, but way down my personal ranking of his albums. (I should actually do that ranking sometime.)

Getting knocked offstage/seriously injured in Montreaux couldn't've helped either

― Race Against Rockism (Myonga Vön Bontee), Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:05 PM

This was in London, a week after Montreux, but yeah -- destruction of all the band's gear and nearly being killed by a drunk within a few days had to be another horrible low point.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Thursday, 14 June 2012 21:09 (11 months ago) Permalink

Jesus, I knew about the gear/casino fire thing, but hadn't heard about the accident. I'd be pretty pissed off at my "fans" after those two incidents too!

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 14 June 2012 21:11 (11 months ago) Permalink

only album i love beyond 60s Mothers stuff is Apostrophe, this is almost entirely down to hearing it as a kid tho via neighbours parents

― zappi, Thursday, 14 June 2012 22:30 (11 months ago) Permalink

The version of WOIIFTM that I first heard was the one with the new bass and drums, so for a long time I thought that was the original version. When I finally heard the real original I was quite shocked at the difference. I still hear the altered one as being the "right" one even though I know that's not right.

I finally tracked down the 80's version of this album and it's blowing my mind; WOIIFTM is still one of my absolute favorite albums ever and it has been for like a decade, so hearing a completely new version of it is nearly surreal (seems like more than just the bass and drums was remixed). I'm not sure if I really like it, though I'll admit the production on the original was pretty terrible.

― frogbs, Friday, 15 June 2012 14:10 (11 months ago) Permalink

I poked around on YouTube a little last night and really fell for "Montana".

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 15 June 2012 14:36 (11 months ago) Permalink

Awesome article on Zappa here, mostly about "Watermelon in Easter Hay":

http://www.furious.com/perfect/zappainstrumentals.html

I think it really reflects what I meant when I say he "ruins" his own work, but he puts it a lot less harshly. Still, very interesting (and long!)

― frogbs, Friday, 15 June 2012 20:04 (11 months ago) Permalink

― frogbs, Friday, June 15, 2012 2:10 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I've heard both, and there are bits that I prefer on both versions. Like on the '80s version, there were things that were edited out of the '60s version that I like: like the "I get to work with the Velvet Underground, who are just as shitty a group as Frank Zappa's group" part and the 'missing' verse to 'Mother People' ("shut your fuckin' mouth about the length of our hair" etc.)

There's that bit on 'Harry, You're A Beast' at the end where it goes "don't come in me, in me, don't come in me, in me" that's uncensored on the later version, but I actually think it worked better with all that baskmasking and tape-editing when he censored it for the original version... not for any prudish reasons, just that I think the effect is really fucking neat! (Especially on headphones)!

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Friday, 15 June 2012 20:20 (11 months ago) Permalink

I have to think the Studio Z experience was a huge marker on the way Zappa's career went after that point. I'd figure the fact that the local cops pretty much just set him up and destroyed his studio business probably set him on the path he went.

That doesn't happen and he stayed in the studio business, things perhaps would have went very different. Frank Zappa might have ended up with a career path like say David Axelrod or maybe some kind of low rent Jerry Goldsmith, getting more into production and sound track work.

― earlnash, Friday, 15 June 2012 20:44 (11 months ago) Permalink

It was his "as God is my witness, I'll never go hungry again" moment.

I actually wouldn't be totally surprised if Gail included streaming rights in the Universal deal! I could see arguments both ways, for including and for withholding. Actually the smart way to do it would be to allow Spotify/streaming for each album one year after its CD release.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Friday, 15 June 2012 21:16 (11 months ago) Permalink

Awesome article on Zappa here, mostly about "Watermelon in Easter Hay":
http://www.furious.com/perfect/zappainstrumentals.html
I think it really reflects what I meant when I say he "ruins" his own work, but he puts it a lot less harshly. Still, very interesting (and long!)

Fascinating piece. I love the part about the guy who wrote this fawning biography of Zappa in '72, does a second edition of it in '80 that deletes most of the glowing praise and does a third some years later that basically calls FZ a fraud and a woman-hater.

― Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 18 June 2012 04:08 (11 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, enjoyed reading that, thanks frogbs. I'm a fairly casual Zappa fan but I totally agree with the guy's conclusion about picking and choosing from the back catalogue. With that in mind I really hope it all ends up on iTunes eventually - 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' is one of my favourite songs of all time but I've zero interest in hearing the rest of Joe's Garage.

― Gavin, Leeds, Monday, 18 June 2012 10:41 (11 months ago) Permalink

I used to read a bunch of those personal review sites and it was always funny how the authors would start out super excited about reviewing Zappa and would just pour out all this emotion on how great he was, then once they hit Sheik Yerbouti or so it just seemed like all the life was sucked out of them. Here's an excerpt that I liked:

Frank Zappa was a guy who simply couldn't shut up. He was like a kid who'd just gotten a tape recorder and spent every second of every day putting down anything that popped into his head, thinking it was hilariously genius and needed not only to be preserved on magnetic tape forever, but also played back to friends, relatives, milkmen, random passers-by, and anyone else within earshot. The guy who was forever recording his farts, or trying to create an electric guitar out of an old transistor radio, a roll of aluminum foil, and sbout fifteen gallons of solder, or singing showtunes in some Looney Tunes voice and cracking up like he'd just given a wedgie to the Pope or something. You know, not the class clown, but the dude not even the freaks and weirdos could understand. It was exactly this childish inability to color within the lines and self-edit that both sealed Frank Zappa's commercial failure and formed an unbreakable bond with a certain group of insane fanatics who hung on his every note. The man attracts and repulses with equally irresistible force - The man's a master guitar player who often spends too much time talking to actually play. He writes extraordinarily complex music that often just comes across like a poorly organized in-joke. He's never met a musical form he didn't try to master, from free-jazz to doo wop to modern classical to electronic music, and he's never met a musical form he didn't then try to wad up into a little Zappa ball, filtered through his perverse sensibilities and stripped of most of what made it distinct in the first place. He's diverse stylistically, but a whole lot of his stuff sounds EXACTLY THE SAME AS ITSELF.

― frogbs, Monday, 18 June 2012 13:51 (11 months ago) Permalink

Frank Zappa's commercial failure

Stopped reading at this phrase. If chart hits is this reviewer's main metric, then fuck him for that. If it's not, then he doesn't really know much about FZ, so fuck him for that. FZ was financially secure enough to build his own state of the art studio and release pretty much whatever he felt like, so

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Monday, 18 June 2012 14:02 (11 months ago) Permalink

maybe you should have kept reading if you really wanted to know why the guy has his problems with Zappa? not sure how you arrived at that conclusion

― frogbs, Monday, 18 June 2012 14:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

The only conclusion I reached was "fuck this guy" for either not understanding or for misrepresenting what commercial success or failure means in re: FZ. I didn't address whatever critical problems he has the work, and have no beef with that.

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Monday, 18 June 2012 14:17 (11 months ago) Permalink

...problems he has WITH the work...

― Biff Wellington (WmC), Monday, 18 June 2012 14:20 (11 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, commercial failure. If only he had a hit record he coulda been a success. Instead he self-released like over 50 LPs. What a loser.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 18 June 2012 14:33 (11 months ago) Permalink

well, it's a 50-page long article. certianly "commercial failure" isn't really intended as a criticism; he's just mentioning the consequences of not self-editing at all. that's just a small part of the overall point here which is that Zappa was a brilliant man who thought he was even more brilliant than he actually was, and the work (especially post-1971) suffers as a result

― frogbs, Monday, 18 June 2012 14:40 (11 months ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Well, I finally bought one.

I got a copy of "Freak Out", a UK 'original pressing of the double LP' (as opposed to the real original which was a single LP, I know..)

Anyway, first track, it's Northern Soul! Wasn't expecting that.

― Mark G, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:22 (7 months ago) Permalink

freak out is great

― jalapeno kloppers (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 24 September 2012 23:24 (7 months ago) Permalink

Not sure if "Northern Soul" is accurate.

― timellison, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:29 (7 months ago) Permalink

You don't think it has something of the "Going to a go-go" about it? (The Sharonettes version)

― Mark G, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 08:41 (7 months ago) Permalink

Did you just say that the original version of Freak Out was a single lp? or are you talking about a UK release of it?

It's famous for being about the first rock double lp, among other things.
Came within 5 weeks of Blonde On Blonde apparently.

― Stevolende, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:29 (7 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, the first release of "Freak Out" in the UK was a single LP.

― Mark G, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:36 (7 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, I guess I guess the "Mister America" parts are kind of a "Going to a Go Go" groove.

― timellison, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 08:07 (7 months ago) Permalink

I guess I guess!

― timellison, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 08:08 (7 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Nine Types of Industrial Pollution isn't bad AT ALL - it strikes an annoyingly polite tone that often put me off him but I love the crashing percussion part it starts off on (the percussions on this is varied and actually provides weighty counter to the guitar) and keeps me interested with these mutant cocktail jazz excursions that hang together ok and builds to an intense prickling..

I'll check a few more links and see what else i can find.

― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 1 December 2012 19:10 (5 months ago) Permalink

Zappadan starts Tuesday

― President Keyes, Saturday, 1 December 2012 21:10 (5 months ago) Permalink

Is anyone else on the Zappa trust mailing list? They sent out an email letting people know they could be distributors of an official live pre-Roxy & Elsewhere show. It was the Zappa version of Amway. Incredibly weird.

― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 1 December 2012 21:25 (5 months ago) Permalink

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