Hommophobia inna dancehall style...

First Ave. cancels Buju Banton show, ugh

http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/off-the-record/minneapoliss-first-avenue-canc/

For the record, it is the only song he ever made on the subject - and he does not perform it today.

on the contrary its pretty much a staple of his live show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Eg4Dd9NY4

gets his mic cut off at carifest as the band starts to play it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoNMNmvcVpA

Wish that Batty Boy had something to do with vampires.

"read what i said. i said use of those terms was never advisable. but mate, gay or not, you're in a very privileged position where you can do what you like with impunity. this is not the case in many other places, as you are no doubt aware. the only thing is that handwringing, wailing and telling people what to think exactly when you want them to think it will not change matters any too quick. taking the time to step outside your own life and read and understand some of the things i'm saying will help a lot more. tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding and even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time. economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life (and that is a bloody good thing, more power to you), but that isn't the case in many other places. as economic security effectively buys liberalism and freedom (look at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas) i'd contend that there's a lot more to be got right before you can expect everyone to be as accepting and pluralistic as you demand. call me for whatever you like and throw all the specious accusations around that you feel you need to, but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not."

― stelfox, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 6:43 AM (4 years ago) Bookmark

This thread should have pretty much been locked after this. I don't even like dancehall, but my parents are from the Caribbean, although not Jamaica, and unfortunately homophobia is a deeply ingrained part of the culture in many parts of it. I personally find it reprehensible, but if anyone thinks that a bunch of middle class (mostly white) people from rich countries complaining about it is going to change anything, then please let me disabuse you of that notion right now. That would be about as productive as telling all of the gunmen in Kingston to put down their weapons and hug it out. Ignorance, fear, hate and violence all come from somewhere, and until the core issues that underlie these attitudes and patterns of behaviour are dealt with, not much is going to change.

That's almost fair, until you realize two things: That the global nature of music means that criticism is also global, and that the options aren't simply to try to shift the acceptability of homophobia through complaining from a position or letting it go and working on addressing the underlying social problems—that's a false dichotomy.

And that's before dealing with the omni-present sub-issues that condemnation and complaint can help strengthen domestic opposition to homophobia (especially by knocking down easier targets), and the constant rebuttal that a significant plurality of artists making great music are tremendous assholes, and sometimes homophobia (or sexism or racism) is part of engaging with them through their art.

i agree with stelfox's general point too, but aren't these cancellations less of a "jamaica must change its evil ways" proclamation and more of a "keep your ignorance off our land" type thing? and isn't that their right?

i'm (mostly white) btw

(by "their right" i mean the other countries that the artists are travelling to for performing)

i don't agree with stelfox's general point. "economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life" is a highly debatable relationship, and "ook at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas" is not true either.

http://roomp3.com/img_ar/1896.jpg

"i'm (mostly white) btw"

xp - neither of those are his general point imo

but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not.

was this it?

even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time.

and this:

i'm saying homophobia is wrong, flat out totally fucking indefensible, but there are ways and means of making these changes and dictating to people from on high is not one of them and will only antagonise.

― stelfox, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 7:30 AM

but again, i'm not so sure a cancelled concert in another country = "dictating to people from on high"

If we're going to be all sandy vagina about respecting other cultures when visiting other countries, I don't think it's at all inconsistent to be all sandy vagina when someone comes to our country and does something we would find insulting.

Facebook group defending Buju Banton:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=158249667941

tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding

yeah, if we tolerate homophobes they will tolerate the gays. stands to reason.

The Buju dc area show is still on for Sunday (it's happening out in a Maryland club that white people rarely go to).

the implication that being poor and marginalized breeds homophobia is straight garbage - jamaica got a particular problem here and whites noting it is not omg foolish cultural imperialism

^^true - though too much of the anti-dancehall lobbying is coming from a place of near-total ignorance and hysteria.

it's not "anti-dancehall" i'm pretty sure but nice try there.

I like this too:

This thread should have pretty much been locked after this.

Good way to open up a dialogue.

That song "Boom Bye Bye" was written nearly twenty years ago, when Buju was a 15-year-old boy.

lol srsly how many times are they gonna pull this line out

"he was only 15! hes got no choice but to sing it live every night!"

Again, I'm not a huge fan of dancehall, and I think homophobia is wrong, but talking down to people you disagree with from a position of moral superiority without trying to understand the root causes of the offending behaviour isn't a "dialogue". It's a lecture, and they don't work. As mentioned above Jamaica does have a particular problem, or a particularly bad case of a widespread problem. Jamaica has also got a very serious problem with violent crime, but I'm not under the illusion that wagging my finger at the gunmen from my relatively privileged position because they offend my middle-class North American values will make a lick of difference. I think the point Stelfox was trying to make, and one that I agree with is that it might be more productive to ask "why", instead of just yelling "stop".

And as for this:

"yeah, if we tolerate homophobes they will tolerate the gays. stands to reason"

I can only hope that it was an intentional attempt at completely missing the point.

Erm, I think you'll find a great deal of them did. (eg Native Americans)

― Old Fart!!!, Monday, June 17, 2002 8:00 PM (7 years ago)

― Old Fart!!!

without trying to understand the root causes of the offending behaviour

wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia. this idea that it's rooted in poverty is just fucked.

talking down to people you disagree with from a position of moral superiority without trying to understand the root causes of the offending behaviour

but the gay activist protesters and the rasta/christian fundie singers are both acting in a "position of moral superiority" and depending on what country you're in, one group happens to trump the other

And how effective is that in adjusting attitudes or changing patterns of behaviour?

"wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia. this idea that it's rooted in poverty is just fucked".

So there's no chance that a non-religious Jamaican female could be homophobic?

what are the chances that a non-religious white woman from anywhere could be homophobic?

you can adjust for her income, but i'm looking for an exact number here.

Are we sort of arguing along the same lines of "it's good there is murder because it tells us something is wrong with the system"?

wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia

If there's such a thing as an 'average' white homophobe - certainly in the UK - I wouldn't necessarily expect them to trot out Leviticus to justify their position

In any case, my ears are way more offended by dancehall than my conscience, so I don't even know what I'm doing on this thread.

calling someone out on some fucked up shit theyre doing has never worked ever while the record of questioning underlying motivation of aggressors is a well established tactic for change - one only has to look as far the famous "why do you think im not a man" signs worn by civil rights protesters in mid century america or gandhis famous "what is the fundamental cause of you occupying my country" protest in india to see its effectiveness

in what universe are either of your examples not evidence of ppl calling someone out on their fucked up shit

you can adjust for her income, but i'm looking for an exact number here

Keep looking for that exact number. You know how dumb this is right? You know what? Keep canceling the odd dancehall concert and keep up your moral outrage. I'm sure that will solve the problem of homophobia in not only Jamaican music, but society-at-large.

uh dan

Y'know, wishing that practitioners of a kind of music you generally like would stop it with the songs about killing you, your friends and family is not really colonial white man lecturing from on high, so if we could move on from that notion, plz?

And how effective is that in adjusting attitudes or changing patterns of behaviour?

― King of Snake (j-rock), Friday, September 11, 2009 12:15 PM

i'm only pointing out that the protesters aren't the only ones with their fingers in their ears going "lalalala". i don't think anyone intends to change the laws of jamaica by telling a singer to stfu when he rolls thru a town. they simply want the singer to stfu.

People should always be called out on hateful garbage like this, but simply canceling shows and lecturing aren't doing anything constructive to change attitudes.

I don't think the primary concern is changing attitudes in Jamaica; I think the primary concern is the people operating a venue saying "we do not people to think we condone this attitude".

we need more seminars, like the juggalos

Maybe the civil rights organization behind the planned boycotts of those venues could try to engage Mr. Banton a little more directly?

We should just send them both a link to this thread.

hugs not thugs

i ain't gonna play sun city

I don't think the primary concern is changing attitudes in Jamaica; I think the primary concern is the people operating a venue saying "we do not people to think we condone this attitude".

^^^ truthbomb