best song The-Dream Love/Hate

Ha ha everyone I can think of who is actually like Lex's complaint ended up being into dubstep, Erykah Badu and Jay Dilla, maybe that's why they aren't checking for Electrik Red etc.

everyone i know into electrik red is also into dubstep, erykah and j dilla - who are these people you're talking about??

if i'm having a pop at anyone it's pfork and co - and probably not mainstream pop audiences, but more the "tastemakers"/"gatekeepers". but "ew ballads" is a sadly widespread stance. "r&b ballads got better" - this sort of ignores the history of r&b pre-2000!

disagree that sean paul, justin timberlake et al were the peak of this in 2003 - i think of r&b's critical peak as missy's so addictive album rather than the consciously old-skool under construction (which is probably her most consistent album, for whatever that's worth). 2001, basically.

rich harrison was never a recognisable auteur name like timba and the neps...

"who are these people you're talking about??"

About five or six people (guys mostly) I know IRL, plus like half of dissensus.

Also I know I've got a stake here but, um, who writes about R&B albums a lot on pitchfork apart from me anyway? They simply didn't cover it at all during the 2000-2001 era, as far as I can recall.

" "r&b ballads got better" - this sort of ignores the history of r&b pre-2000!"

Yeah, I'm saying they were in a particularly bad patch circa 2000. Obv there have always been amazing R&B ballads since day dot.

"i think of r&b's critical peak as missy's so addictive album rather than the consciously old-skool under construction (which is probably her most consistent album, for whatever that's worth)."

If you're talking about reynolds alone, sure, (actually reynolds' interest in Missy peaked with Supa Dupa Fly) but as a widespread popular crit phenomenon then I don't think it crested until after that.

"rich harrison was never a recognisable auteur name like timba and the neps..."

Yeah but now I don't know who you're talking about. If pitchfork, then any dudes listening are self-conscious enough to have known who rich was certainly by the time "1 Thing" came out. If you're talking the general middle class uni-educated indie-leaning white public then I think they knew The Neptunes but neither Timbaland nor Rich.

Basically these guys who are like "Timbaland was amazing" but don't listen to other R&B are also into: Luciano/Villalobos, wonky (esp. wossisname from LA), mnml ssgs style stentorian Berghain berlin techno, anything post-Basic Channel, Tectonic Plates/Hessle Audio/Martyn, Theo Parrish obv, and anything that falls within those parameters.

Amazingly, people who over-identify with the "I only listen to futuristic music" w/r/t commercial R&B tend to adopt the same stance w/r/t everything else.

Obv. a lot of good music falls within these boundaries!

It's okay to like music for cool noises you guys. That's not why I like The-Dream etc. but let's not get all pop-rockist just yet.

I agree!

Probably half of Lex's point is that Timbaland/The Neptunes aren't the only guys to make R&B with cool noises but they're the only ones acknowledged as such by a certain audience.

If you're talking the general middle class uni-educated indie-leaning white public then I think they knew The Neptunes but neither Timbaland nor Rich.

i'm sure they'd have known timbaland! the double-act with missy, the vocal presence on half his songs even before he tipped into pop star status himself in 06/07.

Yeah, I'm saying they were in a particularly bad patch circa 2000.

disagree totally! even apart from aaliyah, there were loads of ballad-heavy r&b albums released in 2000-01 - alicia keys, kelis, d'angelo, mjb...just off the top of my head. DC were rarely good at ballads but they were always kind of anomalous in that respect.

i guess i'm talking about the uk broadsheet press here - in 2001 i had no idea pitchfork existed (oh happy days), and i've rarely read reynolds on r&b b/c lol why would anyone do that. i'm not really having a pop at anyone specific though, it's just a bunch of wrong-headed ideas that seem to be rather commonly held across non-r&b critics and those that read them.

It's okay to like music for cool noises you guys

yeah, praising cool sounds isn't a bad thing - cool sounds are cool - but judging everything within a particular genre to "cool sounds y/n" is horribly reductive and ignorant.

i didn't really start buying R&B albums regularly until i started freelancing 4-5 years ago, although it'd been my favorite singles genre for years before that and for a while i wasn't barely buying albums anyway. so i guess i'm part of the problem!

Also I know I've got a stake here but, um, who writes about R&B albums a lot on pitchfork apart from me anyway? They simply didn't cover it at all during the 2000-2001 era, as far as I can recall.

ha i wrote a D'Angelo review they never published. D'Angelo!

Fancy.

Shit wrong poll.

Nikki

voted "nikki" but i sort of hate alex for pointing out what a bad line "springtime, summertime, falltime, winter" is in one of these threads. now it bothers me every time.

lol sorry but seriously that line

i really like "nikki" but mainly because of the way the beat bleeds in from "fast car"...tho "fast car" is probably my 2nd fav song on the album "nikki" really signals that this shit is about to get real

xp ha why don't you like that line? and you reviewed voodoo (i assume)? would have liked to have read that

how could it not be I Luv Your Girl? am i alone in this?

Nope. I've probably listened to that song like five hundred times in the past six months. (OK, maybe not that much, but even after the first album finally clicked -- I hadn't listened to it enough -- that one never fails to mesmerize. "Fancy" seems like the idealized version of what's going on in "I Luv Your Girl" musically for some reason but haven't figured out why I think that yet.)

a) because FALLTIME and b) yes, Voodoo

more like failtime eh

falltime is not that bad

love this album to the extent that i could have gone with any of 8/9 songs here. wish i could get with the new one too but it ain't happening; the harder i try to hear what y'all hear in it the more i end up mumbling to myself something like "jeez, am i nuts or is this just a watered-down retread of the debut?"

I think he means the aforementioned seasonal line as "Fall Time" - the fall of the relationship, which leads into, of course, (Hate Me All) Winter.

(Just kidding; that line's indefensible.)

I love the new mixtape, just getting this now.

"Sweat It Out" off the new one is amazing, that bit at the end where he's just roaring "SO PUT IT ON ME LIKE YEAH" as if his entire family has just been murdered before his eyes.

New mixtape? To clarify, please?

okay well the thing I have is love/money? or is it an album?

New mixtape? To clarify, please?

― MTLiens (Alex in Montreal), Monday, September 7, 2009 4:01 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

sweat it out is on 'love/money', the album from this year. theres no 'new mixtape'

o dear

yeah love vs money was officially released in the UK...today.

I might be being dense here, but I still don't get why that line is so bad. Is it because nobody actually says "falltime"? And if so, he could have been making a sly reference to songwriting and its conventions or even his own occasional ineptness w/r/t lyrics, kind of like New Order often did. I mean, he coulda said "autumn" and have it scan pretty much the same, but then everyone would've been like "lol British!" I genuinely don't understand the criticism. Anyone?

some dude's just jealous he didnt think of "falltime" first - like a true dream-hater

I think I'm going to rep for "falltime" IRL now.

yeah thats what im saying, 'falltime' really doesnt sound weird at all imo

people actually say "summertime" and "springtime" -- they even say "wintertime" but he doesn't say that! that's why the line is shit!

i mean granted it could've been written in a knowing/playful way, but it's still shit

yeah i think at the very least it was that

Ha, I just realised I gave myself away by mentioning New Order -- I mean, I like shit lyrics!

how about 'a knowing/playful way, but its not shit' -- it really isnt that ridiculous i promise

i know you like rap w/ more awkwardly created lines

Yeah even if it was an awkward line - it doesn't strike me as one - there's so many more awkward/sub-literate stuff on the same album you could object to.

can you assemble a list to poll?

please don't :(

don't actually like this album all that much but Shawty Is da Sh*! is a jam.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I luv ur girl/fast car

purple kisses
fast car
she needs my love
luv songs
falsetto
shawty is da shit!
playin in her hair
mama
livin a lie
nikki
I luv your girl
ditch that...

besides the first two and the last one, that's a reallll fluid ranking

hahaha thought i would never see the day when this poll would end

did I really not vote on this before?

gave mine to "She Needs My Love" because it seems to encapsulate everything he's capable of doing on this album more than any other track

"Fast Car"

^^was my favorite for a long time, but seems kind of limited in retrospek

answer same as it was back then, "she needs my love"

purrrrrple kisses, purrrrple kisses

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.