STEVE ALBINI

i find the idea you can 'cancel' someone to be abhorrent moralistic stone-throwing - sure, if they've done something terrible you can withdraw your custom or attention, but in more ambiguous cases it feels like it isn't even accurate to say everyone (the moralistic 'we') has en masse decided to do so - usually many don't - and i do not wish albini 'cancelled' especially as i rather enjoy a lot of his work, BUT it is clear that his recent spree of atonement and personal growth etc etc has been with rather more in mind than just the edgy art of the 80s. witness the edgy tour diaries of the 80s - yeah he was a silly young man, but if the july 18 entry here doesn't chill your blood then idk: https://web.archive.org/web/20000818044126/http://petdance.com/actionpark/bigblack/tourdiary/ (CW: bad stuff)

now my intention posting that here is not to invite castigation on someone who's clearly not the same person as he was 35 years ago (not to mention living in a world that is not the same as it was 35 years ago), but to add colour to his notion of the redemptive journey. these are the pits from which he rose. they're ugly. he'd definitely agree they're ugly. you may not agree that he has atoned for such things - what are basically self-admitted crimes, even - but let's be clear: if you want to 'cancel' albini, the distance between what he was and what he is must be taken into account. the reason why everyone turned en masse on cornelius wasn't so much what he'd done as a kid way back in the 1980s but the lack of remorse, even the glee in recounting it, and the lack of an apology. it feels to me that albini is legitimately sorry and self-reproachful about his behaviour during those days

that said, having read that a few months ago, i have felt like i'll find it hard to listen to anything he made before shellac, knowing these were some of the thoughts and impulses coursing through his brain in those days - i don't think you can cancel art on any grounds other than aesthetic, but big black is all about the aesthetic of the edgy young man and i personally don't need that in such a concentrated form. shellac onwards, and (some of) his engineering jobs, though? forever.

ofc if you read the above link and are sufficiently repulsed to cast albini out for good, that's your decision. he makes a good case study in forgivability imo, in that his crimes are neither too concrete to be absolutely condemnatory nor trifling enough that castigating him for them looks petty

And it goes both ways — I don't expect some 17-year-old Harry Styles fan to go trawling through Incantation's catalog, or Cecil Taylor's, to find something they like! Why should they?

― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 6 February 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Because a 17 year old is often in discovery mode and absorbing all sorts of random things so they absolutely should be listening to some free jazz.

It's a shame that age is used as an excuse not to engage, so it goes the other way too.

"i think albini's set of tics reflect all of that, and also that maybe he's savvy enough to perform for his aging audience, it's probably good for business."

Performing for an audience and giving them what they want sure is punk tradition. Savvy.

You don't need to go back to his youth to find some reprehensible shit said by Albini - see: meeting Tyler the Creator/Odd Future less than a decade ago. If people want to take him to task for that, right on. The reaction to a tossed off tweet about not liking Steely Dan has been silly, though.

His tweets on music does make it look like the contrition over past deeds as a bit of an act. Still has that edgelord in him.

And when people say sorry and mean it they also quieten down quite a bit. Highly suspect behaviour.

some steely dan fans are pissed around here it seems

some steely dan fans are pissed around here it seems

― CerebralCaustic, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 9:38 PM (one hour ago)

Literally came back to this board just to see this happening.
Steely Dan fucking sux, this board has a hard-on for them (except 40% of it according to this old poll).

Nick Cave: I just think artists should freely express themselves without a filter, even if there are consequences, and even if it’s a little messy sometimes

ilx: die in a fire you old bastard

Steve Albini: I have no respect for jazz, techno, rap, or most of the other musical art forms coincidentally created by black people. My hobbies are playing poker and starting arguments with people on twitter, where my persona is that of a grouchy, obstinate misanthrope. Please enjoy my band, “Rapeman”

ilx: what a mensch!

omg

Tbf Cave is 4-5 years older than Albini

"Literally came back to this board just to see this happening."

The board is a dictatorship not a democracy. The ilx police will be at your door soon.

(except 40% of it according to this old poll).

29/100 = 29% iirc

Dated a girl in the mid-80s who got free tickets from work to see the Red Hot Chili Peppers at the Vic. We came for opener Trouble Funk, who absolutely slayed. Started before house lights went down, bounced non-stop for an hour. We bolted two bars into the yabba dabba doo. https://t.co/9qARZIPRIp

— steve albini (@electricalWSOP) September 27, 2021

Ugh

In the UK the ageing soulboy white rock critic's African-American band of choice circa 1985 (or so I've been led to believe)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtV_nQKhkdY

tbf Trouble Funk ruled and always ruled.

I will now always think of RHCP as “the yabba dabba doo,” thanks based Albini

(Regarding Nick Cave - nothing against him but I haven’t gotten into his work or read much about him, so no real opinion or investment in how his views have or haven’t evolved over time.)

fwiw Cave has become a boring old cancel culture whinger, "you can't say anything without the woke snowflake police throwing you in jail merely for being Australian" etc. etc.

Haha, RC, me too. A+, waterface

I just want to show respect for Neanderthal's new screen name. respect

the reason why everyone turned en masse on cornelius wasn't so much what he'd done as a kid way back in the 1980s but the lack of remorse, even the glee in recounting it, and the lack of an apology.

iirc wasn't his response more "yes I was involved in some bullying but a lot of what I said in that interview was made up", which idk, kinda jives with the whole counterculture element that was going on in the 90s. think people are finding it easy to turn on him cuz he hasn't really done much in the last 20 years

I'm sorry but this:

Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S) at 8:36 7 Feb 23

fwiw Cave has become a boring old cancel culture whinger, "you can't say anything without the woke snowflake police throwing you in jail merely for being Australian" etc. etc.

is bullshit and a massive oversimplification of a man who's past decade's work is not obsessed with "cancel culture" but mourning the loss of his children

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/hallmark-card-hippie/

nick cave is the hip bono

i like you less every time you post

is this our first AI poster

that's a truly magnificent response upper miss but it's also fair to say that Cave's parsing of this present moment in which people are reflecting on how their speech might impact others is essentially "but people must be FREE TO SPEAK, EVEN FORBIDDEN THOUGHTS!" free-speech-broism. it's reductive to say that's his whole deal now, but he does rehearse it a bit, and as tediously as, say, John Cleese.

i like you less every time you post

also, for the love of God, and of all His children, and of His grand creation, its splendor, its radiance, its indescribable sweetness -- in the name, I say, of all that is good and holy in this world: new board description

no i get it JCLC - i'm not saying that i don't have problems with stuff he says, but people read one thing and all of a sudden the perception is that he's vampire bill maher, like i read the red hand files quite often and he's not always going on about that stuff at all.

but i know the stuff you're talking about and he can be lazy as a thinker for sure. but i think it's unfair to characterize as the sum total of what he's about. (and obviously dealing with that much grief is never completely dignified for anyone, it's a messy thing)

or like i dunno sometimes when you're in a dark place it's also easy to start caring about other stuff to avoid thinking about the real stuff

Maybe it’s not a giant shock to see a white Australian dude slide rightward in his 60s?

and obviously dealing with that much grief is never completely dignified for anyone, it's a messy thing

otm

that Cave piece you posted is really good UMS. He's similar to Albini in that he seems willing to talk about stuff in an open way and reflect on past mistakes and how his attitudes have changed, and that's good even if I may not personally agree with everything they say

I've read Cave's comments on cancel culture before. No, I don't like them, but I think he's reacting more to the toxic underbelly of the internet than what most people would consider a good example of cancel culture.

Forget the name, having a system of calling bad actors out that actually sees material consequences is an absolute necessity. and despite many wailings about its destructive harms, we still haven't achieved it. powerful people feel mild discomfort, sometimes even surge in popularity due to reactionary folk who view holding people accountable as an unpardonable sin. the people who wind up suffering actual material harm from organized mobs on the internet are the same people 'cancel culture' is meant to empower. Women, minorities, LGBTQ+ folk peppered with death threats, doxxing, etc. it still happens.

so on that end, no, I don't have a lot of patience for people whinging about 'cancel culture'.

What I suspect Cave is referring to, otoh, is not that (or at least not primarily that), but some of its less defensible usages. People who go crate digging into people's very distant pasts (i.e. teenage years) to find mild offenses to encourage people not to support them now, regardless of whether they're the same person or have even proactively owned up to and disavowed these views. and then there's the purity policing, like people swooping in to say "you saw THAT movie? but it had a key grip that was anti-semitic" as some people do.

but tbh, I haven't really seen many instances (outside of Doja Cat) where such campaigns gained any real traction, and even that one fizzled out fast. just view it as "toxic people looking for cheap likes and retweets". it's definitely not the norm, nor does it typically result in real harm. so using it as the face of cancel culture and objecting due to things like that is sort of bad faith.

but he also seems to take issue with the idea of people feeling as if they can speak in any manner possible to somebody because they are 'right', and tbh i'm a lot more sympathetic there. I've saw someone who was severely depressed about the state of the world and made the unfortunate statement "we deserve this" when one of the many bad things happened in America last year, and being told "fuck you, kill yourself if you feel that badly, leave everyone else out of it", and this being cheered on as an appropriate response. this affects not celebrities but everyday people.

I don't believe in tone policing, as harsh reactions to things I said in my 20s were how I learned my words hurt people and that I needed to consider what I was saying or even believing. but some of the toxicity is well out of bounds in proportion to what the other person said, and it's not coming from strangers, but people who know each other IRL where the shit is likely to be heavily internalized.

I can definitely see how grief would perhaps play into these views as well.

My wife hates Steely Dan so much she’s starting a fan group called the Albini Babies

— Jason Isbell (@JasonIsbell) February 7, 2023

Hmm.

swear to God one of my fav bands but Twitter is gonna make me hate Steely Dan by the end of the week

are these the two extremes of the white dude muso spectrum?

jacob collier and gg allin; both suck

your mistake is thinking there are only two extremes

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/Vanilla_Ice-To_the_Extreme_%28album_cover%29.JPG

But you could say that Steely Dan represents white dudes who appropriate black music
and Albini represents white dudes who think authenticity means removing all traces of black influence from your music

swear to God one of my fav bands but Twitter is gonna make me hate Steely Dan by the end of the week

If you need your faith restored, read any of Becker's letters to Jann Wenner, Wes Anderson, et al.

Seeing recent headlines about Paul Schrader dissing The Last of Us (and the Sight & Sound Poll)--same Albini Energy there.

"Dominion sucked"

But you could say that Steely Dan represents white dudes who appropriate black music

please explain how they do this any more egregiously than literally any other predominantly white rock band of this era

Yes, please.

you realize that "represents" means they are not the only ones who did this