he's a terrible and overwrought lyricist and vocalist
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:36 (two years ago) link
like even at his best (achtung baby) his performance undercuts the ideas he's working with bc it's like he doesn't know what irony is (not that irony is objectively good or bad it's just a device)
his whole thing works on boy bc he has yet to become ponderous and who gives a fuck if those songs are about anything
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:41 (two years ago) link
I'm used to be the biggest, sometimes only, U2 fan no matter where I roam :(
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:45 (two years ago) link
The purported "ironic" attributes of "Achtung Baby" are as invented as the "Exile on Main Street" parallels to Liz Phair's first record.
And by the standards of terrible and overwrought he's nowhere near the worst. I can think of several off the top of my head *influenced* by him that are worse lyricists and singers.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:45 (two years ago) link
I often think of something I read: “If U2 weren’t so full of shit they wouldn’t be as great as they often are.” Bono’s never bothered me.
― Antifa Sandwich Artist (Boring, Maryland), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:45 (two years ago) link
I think he’s a great vocalist, gonna get FPd to hell but I think you’re describing Robert Smith
― brimstead, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:46 (two years ago) link
i've probably made these points before, i just really hate bono. can you imagine how perfect the passengers record would be without "elvis ate america" which has to be in the hall of fame of the worst writing in human history
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:46 (two years ago) link
xxxp
the funniest Bono moment is when he gives advice to Stephen Dorff in the terrible film Entropy
― brimstead, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:47 (two years ago) link
“If U2 weren’t so full of shit they wouldn’t be as great as they often are.”
i accept this
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:48 (two years ago) link
xpost Elvis Ate America is terrible, but it's the worst song on a self consciously weird side project record, and Howie B is probably as much to blame.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:50 (two years ago) link
howie b forced bono to write those words and say them like that at gunpoint
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:50 (two years ago) link
but he did so ironically
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:55 (two years ago) link
There's a helpful helping of 'dated' references (East 17, video stores, handicams, HIStory) in some 90s Bono songs that endear them even more to me
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 15:55 (two years ago) link
YAHWEHHHHHHHH
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:12 (two years ago) link
God Part II is probably my favourite example of terrible lyrics good music in all of pop
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:13 (two years ago) link
It's like the rest of the band conspired to come up with that metallic INXS/proto-Achtung sound just to upend all that rather meaningless pontifying.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:15 (two years ago) link
"Angel of Harlem" is worse than any song mentioned.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:26 (two years ago) link
Worst 80s U2 single - I like When Love Comes to Town even less but the first 10 seconds or so are funny. No subtlety or tension-and-release for Bono he just cuts straight to it
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:31 (two years ago) link
I think Greg Kot came up with the best defense for Bono, calling him an Irish soul singer. Like once I heard that description, I enjoyed him more, as long as he didn't let his pretensions get the best of him. That's what sunk a lot of The Unforgettable Fire for me - I like the production but it's a wildly uneven batch of songs.
Going over U2's discography, if I gave a quick grade to everything (and these are very subjective):Boy A-, October B, War A, Red Rocks (the DVD) A, The Unforgettable Fire B-, Joshua Tree A-, Rattle & Hum B- or possibly C+, Achtung Baby A, Zooropa A-, Pop B-, ATYCLB A-, Dismantle a Bomb C+, No Line on the Horizon B, and I can't even rate the last two as "Every Breaking Wave" is the only song I've bothered to listen to again.
I can enjoy "Angel of Harlem" and even enjoy the first verse (having flown into JFK during winter many times, I'm probably biased). But it feels like a guy who strings together musical references without really understanding them. Like he's name checking Billie Holiday and John Coltrane but the whole song's built on Memphis Horns charts that are more fitting for a Stax/Volt record. (I think the live acoustic version is kind of nice FWIW.)
― birdistheword, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:33 (two years ago) link
I like B. B. King on "When Love Comes To Town." Granted, it sounds like he could've laid it down in one take without even a rehearsal, but his guitar does sound good. It sounds like a nothing song, something they could've knocked out very quick...I would be amazed if they labored over it.
― birdistheword, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:38 (two years ago) link
(I think the live acoustic version is kind of nice FWIW.)
Same to be fair. Works quite well during ZooTV, I would say 'strangely' but dissonance was the whole point of the thing.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:39 (two years ago) link
The purported "ironic" attributes of "Achtung Baby"
The thing is, after the ham-fisted humorlessness of Rattle & Hum (the film and the record, but especially the film), which essentially defined U2 from 1988-1990, Achtung felt like a goofball comedy record. And a welcome one.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 16:45 (two years ago) link
I think "Achtung Baby" is super dark and serious. But due to its ham-fisted humorlessness "Rattle & Hum" is actually pretty funny, which is ... ironic.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 17:03 (two years ago) link
Achtung and Pop both use their colourful veneers as trapdoors. And to this end both have the most miserable endings as well (along with NLOTH probably).
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 17:07 (two years ago) link
That Neil Tennant takedown of U2 justifies the existence of “when love comes to town”
― brimstead, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 17:08 (two years ago) link
Sep 96: Hay una discoteca por aqui?Feb 97: ¡aquí está!
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 17:14 (two years ago) link
When Bono learned PSB had covered "Where the Streets Have No Name," he faxed Tennant: "What have we, what have we, what have we done to deserve this?"
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 20:12 (two years ago) link
I was fortunate enough to see this band at their seminal Red Rocks gig in 1983. My friend and I almost didn't go because of the rain. We were so happy we did, because even then we knew it was something special. At the time, Bono's act came across as sincere and inspirational. It was only later that the whole thing soured, at least for me. Probably in part because I waited in line all night for tickets for the Rattle and Hum tour (which sold out before I got halfway to the window), but mostly because they (Bono) started taking themselves too seriously and overstayed their welcome.
Verdict: dud overall, with occasional flashes of brilliance.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Tuesday, 26 July 2022 20:18 (two years ago) link
Joshua Tree will always be perfection to me. Never really cared for any U2 albums after that incl Achtung Baby.
― oscar bravo, Tuesday, 26 July 2022 20:39 (two years ago) link
I use an iPhone for work and every once in a while, not sure why, it starts playing U2
― corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 10:26 (two years ago) link
do you work at the U2 factory
― Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 10:52 (two years ago) link
Zoo Station led off Achtung Baby in fall 1991, and it came just on the heels of summer 1991's Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey, featuring the character Station. When you realize that the year had started off with Cinderella's Heartbreak Station (released in Dec 1990, but come on guys, year of impact) and a remastered release of David Bowie's Station to Station, it was just a hell of a year for stations.
― peace, man, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 11:09 (two years ago) link
bono was at his best on achtung baby & zooropa because even just trying to adopt a pose was enough to counter his worst tendencies for the most part, he's fantastic on "the fly" and "lemon" and never anywhere near his worst
of course he invents new ways to be bad later in the decade like on "elvis ate america" and "the playboy mansion" so it didn't last that long, but he makes things work for at least some of pop (his vocals are fucking terrible on it though)
he made the big soaring shiny arena rock thing work some of the time in the 80s but still kinda in spite of himself. he's a big enough, soaring vocal presence to sell that sound but whenever his lyrics are anything more than vague they falls flat
― ufo, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 11:54 (two years ago) link
otm
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 11:59 (two years ago) link
I really like the vocals on Pop - maybe just me but I think there's a tension there between two acknowledged points about the album: the dry, upfront vocal sound and moody singing style, and the fact the album was never completed so the mix is just all over the place. For all that he's apparently quite close-mic a lot of the time, he is well and truly buried on a "Mofo", say.
But I'm very used to being the Pop defender anywhere I go so salt/pinch etc. "The Playboy Mansion" is really dicing with death on Bono's behalf but I like how the music lands on the right side of its imagined trip hop/bar band divide while (ironically or not) still flirting with the other side.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 12:33 (two years ago) link
^^^well put. Pop is Bono being very non-bombast. On the New Order thread we were talking about how despite the burbling electronics Technique and Republic are downcast albums. I know U2 are Joy Division fans maybe those records influenced Pop.
― Antifa Sandwich Artist (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 12:51 (two years ago) link
i'm sympathetic to pop but it's ultimately kind of a failure. the songs are solid but largely too long, the mix is really muddy and all over the place yeah, the dance-rock thing largely is forgotten about after the first three tracks, bono's vocals are unusually poor, the performances are often relatively lifeless and don't really do the songs justice...
"the playboy mansion" is decent musically, just bono's lyrical schtick completely flops. "miami" is worse lyrically and bizarre enough musically that i kinda respect it but still don't enjoy it
still though, "mofo" is fantastic, "discotheque" and "do you feel loved" are both very good, and the rest is generally fine despite the many problems. it just clearly could have been so much better than 'fine'.
― ufo, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 13:03 (two years ago) link
Yeah, "Mofo" and "Do You Feel Loved" work best.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 13:10 (two years ago) link
I appreciate and understand every problem there is with Pop but none of them get in the way when I listen to it. Think I'm gonna have to write about the album one day to at least try and understand why I really like it so much when I know its not the album anyone involved or buying it wanted it to be.
Like I know "Miami" is usually considered the worst track - musically rather than lyrically I think - but that weird clattery backmasked "Peek-a-Boo" whatever thing I really enjoy and especially when the bass comes in and it sounds like its in a loop of tripping over itself. Possibly another artist could have done more with it but I do very much like what there is.
"Mofo" is the best song. Considering there is so much in the mix (even seemingly Howie B going "okay, Bono" at one moment, unfinished indeed) it's remarkable how well it works.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 13:14 (two years ago) link
Second favourite is probably "Velvet Dress"
"Tonight the moon is a mirror-ball/light flickers from across the hall" - good Bono lyric because that's what the Edge's guitar sounds like at the same time
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 13:22 (two years ago) link
i still might rank it as high as their 5th best album which is heretical
― ufo, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 13:34 (two years ago) link
I like Pop more than it's reputation. The singles had some worthwhile B-sides. The "Please" CD single has an amazing renovation/remake of "Dirty Day" from Zooropa (one of my favorite songs from that album).
― Antifa Sandwich Artist (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 14:06 (two years ago) link
I stop the album after "Gone", but those first seven tracks make for a pretty solid album. It's dicey after that: "Velvet Dress" is the best of the rest, but I'm never in the mood to hear it
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 15:25 (two years ago) link
I think the lyrics of “lemon” are v good, also really like the line on “Zooropa” - “it’s cold outside, but brightly lit,” somehow that song affects me more than any of their more obviously rousing and inspirational songs.
― JoeStork, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 15:30 (two years ago) link
I like Pop a lot. I probably prefer it to The Unforgettable Fire, and I definitely prefer it to everything they've done since (including ATYCLB) by a wide margin. I think it's bizarre that U2 tries to essentially write that album out of their history; it was a continuation of what they were doing on Zooropa, and sure, there's a song or two that doesn't completely work, but it wasn't anything insanely disastrous by a long shot. It's weird that the lesson they took away from Pop/the PopMart tour was "stop taking musical risks" and not "don't book the tour until you're at least halfway done with the album."
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 15:39 (two years ago) link
The singles had some worthwhile B-sides
I'm very fond of Steve Osborne's "Pop Muzik", particularly the second half which is four minutes of enormous but very distant stadium noise as the "Mofo" bassline rumbles remotely underneath. Has the excitement of a big tour entering its summer season.
The whole "Last Night on Earth" single is quite interesting to me because the A-side is their first de-Popped re-recording but the rest of it, "Pop Muzik" included, is among the closest they get to doing away with rock altogether. The UK CD2 doesn't even have LNOE on it - rather a moody breakbeat 'First Night in Hell' remix that has nothing of the original track left in. And there's the much-disliked "Happiness Is a Warm Gun" which discards the original composition in favour of some abstract studio contraption (it's a bit of a fun as the flipside to "Helter Skelter" at least).
xp
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 15:45 (two years ago) link
Iirc, I think a hunk of the songs, maybe a third, were leftover from the "Zooropa" sessions.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 15:51 (two years ago) link
Zooropa as a whole has great lyrics - and that's even considering "Numb", "Some Days" and the first half of the title track are meant as (relatively lighthearted) list songs. Similarly to 'brightly lit' I think 'uncertainty can be a guiding light' is good - the sort of thing that later Bono might have integrated into a chorus (i.e. 'vision over visibility') than let through only once.
It's weird that the lesson they took away from Pop/the PopMart tour was "stop taking musical risks" and not "don't book the tour until you're at least halfway done with the album."
I think No Line on the Horizon was intended in part to be their return to art rock and it is quite a good album I think but they compromised it with the poppier songs in the middle, pushing one of those out as the lead single and what not. Being U2 they've laboured over their decisions since - lots of quotes from them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Line_on_the_Horizon#Legacy (The Edge concurred, admitting that the group erred by "starting out experimental and then trying to bring it into something that was more accessible". He added, "I think probably we should have said, 'It's an experimental work. That's what it is.'")
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 27 July 2022 15:53 (two years ago) link
I (unfairly?) judged No Line based on "Get On Your Boots," which struck me as an extremely forced "We're back, and we're rockin'!" move. "I'll Go Crazy" seemed to confirm that judgement, but it makes sense that the more experimental things didn't burn up the airwaves.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 27 July 2022 16:00 (two years ago) link