Every huge artist has their "New Jersey" - a huge event album that ultimately feels a bit hollow & signals a career decline

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anyway, enjoy your entirely wholesome New Jersey buffet, folx!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPI-mRFEIH0

ten man poland chasing this means hamsik feasts (breastcrawl), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 06:30 (two years ago) link

I was also thinking that, as a listener ages, they realize that decline in quality is almost inevitable past a certain point in an artist's career, so their expectations change.

This hugely depends on the listener, there are many artists where a large chunk of their maturing fanbase will maintain to their (or the artist's) death that their hero(es) 'never lost it', like with Elvis, MJ, etc. And with the whole filter bubble thing, this is easier to maintain than ever. There's also a whole vocabulary around this, also with the press - the familiar Return To Form album, the Artist Has Matured narrative, etc - superstars don't do down without a fight. But I guess that's the "this feels hollow" part of it all.

Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 09:28 (two years ago) link

one thing to keep in mind is that NJ status does not require the artists to REALLY fall off the map completely, become punchlines, die in obscurity etc. most of the names from the poll list are still very well known and even well regarded... just (if they kept on releasing albums) it's pretty clear there's a classic period and the later stuff. many people who bought t-shirts in the heyday will continue to wear them, perhaps only gradually realizing that the t-shirt no longer represents a "current" band to most eyes. meanwhile die-hard fans will find lots to enjoy in the later stuff, and appear on forums to review the newest records as they drop. the act has just lost the aura and centrality of being one of the biggest things in the world --- and, somehow, part of losing it took place right under their noses, in an album that seemed at the time like another key pillar in their undeniable monument.

Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 11:55 (two years ago) link

On reflection, though, what WERE the expectations of Bon Jovi in 1989? Did even their most fervent fans think that they were going to suddenly turn into Springsteen, U2 or Metallica?

If you mean Robert Hilburn singing their praises, probably not. By any other measure, I think the answer may be yes. In 2021, Bon Jovi have more monthly Spotify listeners than all three of those artists fwiw.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:03 (two years ago) link

NJ is also their highest-rated album on RYM!

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:12 (two years ago) link

Perhaps dropping a New Jersey is a better long term strategy than dropping a Tunnel of Love, a Rattle & Hum, or a Load

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:14 (two years ago) link

Keep The Faith may not have sold as many records as Achtung Baby, but each one of those buyers went on to open a Spotify account.

Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:34 (two years ago) link

Travis "The Invisible Band" - glowing reviews, straight to #1, ended up selling a lot less than "The Man Who" and they never had a hit after it.

A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:43 (two years ago) link

Perhaps dropping a New Jersey is a better long term strategy than dropping a Tunnel of Love, a Rattle & Hum, or a Load

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61hPHqgn4cL.jpg

but also fuck you (unperson), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 12:57 (two years ago) link

Did even their most fervent fans think that they were going to suddenly turn into Springsteen, U2 or Metallica? I was 14 in 1986 and Bon Jovi already seemed pretty hollow to me at their height, and I even read their Rolling Stone

the fact you read a Rolling Stone article means you weren't even close to their core fanbase

also U2 and Metallica weren't legacy acts at that point. how could anyone think that Bon Jovi would "turn into" bands that were themselves almost at an identical place in their career? (following up a huge 86/87 breakthrough album than turned them into huge stars)

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 13:26 (two years ago) link

and really at the time it would have been far more plausible that Bon Jovi would have Metallica's career rather than vice versa

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 13:27 (two years ago) link

I wasn't talking about relative popularity or career arcs, just that it seems to me that Bon Jovi was already on a very narrow track of making pop-metal with rootsy overtones. Nobody was expecting them to go acoustic, or messianic, or heavy, so ultimately how disappointed could their audience have been with more of the same?

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 13:51 (two years ago) link

There's a lot of acoustic/country material and Springsteen homage on NJ, actually. The first few songs are not that representative.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:14 (two years ago) link

Sure, but no-one was expecting them to do Nebraska, or even Tunnel of Love.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:24 (two years ago) link

Oh yeah, no, they weren't going to make a Tracy Chapman record or anything. As a 9yo in 1988, I think I can say I was Bon Jovi's target audience and New Jersey did not disappoint.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:33 (two years ago) link

I think Hello Nasty is a potential New Jersey; I think Pauls/Check/Communication is central to their canon in a way that HN feels outside of - after the millennium they felt just “there” in a way that they weren’t before really (and is reflected with the response to To the 5 Boroughs)

(HN also their longest album)

Master of Treacle, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:47 (two years ago) link

It didn't help that 5 Boroughs came out 6 years later

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 14:59 (two years ago) link

I loved Hello Nasty, a bit surprised how much I liked it. It kicked off a long-delayed deep dive in to Lee Perry. But also it left me feeling hollow enough that by the time T5B came out, I didn't feel the need to explore. I'd have been happy if they just released instro jams like The Mix Up after that, collab'ing with Tommy Guerrero and the like. It was a NJ for me for sure.

Citole Country (bendy), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:53 (two years ago) link

and really at the time it would have been far more plausible that Bon Jovi would have Metallica's career rather than vice versa

At the time of NJ, Metallica had zero pop crossover, that came two years later with the Black album.

Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:02 (two years ago) link

More than most mega-platinum, Bon Jovi seemed to quickly mount a very effective defensive position that maintained a large sector of their core fans, eg Gen X gals who missed big hair. They let go of the smoke-machine/single entendre/chugging bottles of Jack Daniels side of glam pretty quickly to focus on the romantic.

Citole Country (bendy), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:03 (two years ago) link

Wonder if this metaphor is limited somewhat by the fact that Bon Jovi were unredeemably awful throughout their career.

A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:11 (two years ago) link

and the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate

Siegbran, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:18 (two years ago) link

At the time of NJ, Metallica had zero pop crossover, that came two years later with the Black album.

"One" made the top 40: https://www.billboard.com/music/Metallica/chart-history/HSI . The video was a major event in my Grade 6 class. But yeah, not Bon Jovi level.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:26 (two years ago) link

Hello Nasty seems like a classic New Jersey to me

Lavator Shemmelpennick, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:23 (two years ago) link

Yeah, I think Hello Nasty comes pretty damn close. I was living on campus over the summer it was released and it was inescapable for at least 6-10 months. It felt huge for awhile, even admitting that a college campus gives a pretty skewed demographic. It was played at nearly every party and I remember one weekend, shortly before school started in the fall, walking home from work and hearing songs from it blaring out of every third house party. And it's pretty hard to dispute that, as beloved as they still may be, they never reached that level of ubiquity again/

a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:40 (two years ago) link

Hello Nasty feels more like a late career dip. If they'd stayed with Def Jam and tried to make a Licensed to Ill 2 in '89 that would probably have been a New Jersey.

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:54 (two years ago) link

Is there such a thing as an "honest" New Jersey, dedicated to art and "genuine self-expression"? Does the phrase always smack of complacent pandering?

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:00 (two years ago) link

New Jerseys: the last refuge from rockist authenticity

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:30 (two years ago) link

Disagree with 'Hello Nasty', it was indeed a huge event album but more like a comeback album after a 4-year absence. It's not like they were riding a wave of anticipation after 'Ill Communication' made them thd biggest band on earth.

Deflatormouse, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:59 (two years ago) link

Way upthread, I tried to argue that Hello Nasty sort of avoided NJ-dom in unusual ways. The goofiness of the videos in particular made all the Hello Nasty hits feel sort of halfway like novelty hits, not "event" releases. As well, it wasn't really surprising in any way that the next album didn't connect - as 1980s old-school rappers, they were effectively living on borrowed time. Very few others of their generation were still racking up hits in the early 00s! The miracle was that they'd successfully remained relevant and popular as long as they had, in large part by changing up their sound a couple of times already.

In any case, unless you're Boston, six years is a lonnnng time between albums for the NJ feeling to be there. By 2004, the new album couldn't in any sense be riding the momentum of 1998-era Beastie mania - if it had succeeded it would have been clearly as a comeback album.

Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:35 (two years ago) link

wait what no one thought HN was as a hollow effort

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:36 (two years ago) link

when "Intergalactic" went massive in the late summer of '98 I thought they could ride that popularity forever; no way did I think in retrospect that the success felt hollow.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:37 (two years ago) link

there's that too! i mean i think it's a little overlong, some of the mood-piece and DJ showcase tracks could be pared back, but i don't think anything in their later career decline could be traced to this album.

Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:38 (two years ago) link

wait what no one thought HN was as a hollow effort

Yeah, I guess I was forgetting that "hollowness" was a part of what we are considering with a New Jersey. I guess I was just more focused on how it felt like a huge event release that was their last commercial (and critical, I would say), peak.

a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:45 (two years ago) link

Hello Nasty is their third best album

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 21:00 (two years ago) link

It was def an event

Somebody in England has one hell of a Beastie Boys souvenir.

A giant sardine can which was used to unveil the Beastie Boys' latest release in London got its own "Hello Nasty" when thieves took off with the 3D billboard centerpiece last week.

England's "Dot Music" reports that the 10-ft long can, which set back their U.K. label, Parlophone, over $30,000, contains life-sized replicas of the group members. It's been on display at various sites around the U.K. and had only been put up in its new location next to London's Waterloo Station the previous day.

A label spokesperson told "Dot" that they were hoping that the theft was just a student prank and that the giant tin will soon be returned to its rightful place.

Meanwhile, anybody knowing the whereabouts of the tin are being asked to call Parlophone.

Deflatormouse, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 21:04 (two years ago) link

as 1980s old-school rappers, they were effectively living on borrowed time. Very few others of their generation were still racking up hits in the early 00s!

Old skool rap was very much in fashion in 1998, though. Even the Unkle record had Kool G Rap on it!

Deflatormouse, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 21:18 (two years ago) link

ok but like, who else had a hit album on the charts? even LL Cool J was kind of lost after the big Mr. Smith hits in '96.

Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 21:25 (two years ago) link

LL had a #1 album in 2000 and yet another renaissance in the early to mid '00s with J-Lo hits.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 21:46 (two years ago) link

I guess I meant specifically in the radio landscape of 1998.

Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 21:48 (two years ago) link

Alot of the Beasties late '90s success was down to them finally getting fully absorbed into Alternative Radio. They had a big skater following that wouldn't necessarily have been into other legacy Hip Hop acts.

blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:07 (two years ago) link

As McCain says, The Beasties had very little (nothing at all?) to do with old-school rap culture at that point. After their rebrand on Check Your Head, they were competing with artists on the alternative charts, not on the hip-hop charts or the Hot 97s of the world. LL was their peer coming up but their careers were incredibly different at that point.

mr.raffles, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:08 (two years ago) link

It's more complicated, though. HN invoked the spirit of old school hip-hop in the same year as the UNKLE album.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:13 (two years ago) link

UNKLE was not exactly indicative of...uh... anything having to do with hip hop in the U.S. (or anywhere I'm assuming), but yeah at that time they were more competing with Beck, stuff like that

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:16 (two years ago) link

yea when I got to know the Beasties they were definitely closer to Sublime or Cake than old-school rap

frogbs, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:23 (two years ago) link

I'm pretty sure the Source didn't review them anymore by this time

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:24 (two years ago) link

UNKLE was not exactly indicative of...uh... anything having to do with hip hop in the U.S. (or anywhere I'm assuming), but yeah at that time they were more competing with Beck, stuff like that

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown),

You misread me. The UNKLE album has a B-Boys appearance. Tracks like HN's "Three MC's and One DJ" are conscious callbacks to another kind of delivery and production. I did not suggest HN has a dialogue with Jay-Z, DMX, Master P, Black Star, etc. C'mon, you know this.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 22:47 (two years ago) link

Beasties didn’t have a New Jersey let’s stop this lol

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 23:11 (two years ago) link

amen

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 23:15 (two years ago) link

Mods, plz ban everyone but ums from posting in this thread, thanks.

Carlos Santana & Mahavishnu Rob Thomas (PBKR), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 23:52 (two years ago) link


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