BO is a great album
― flopson, Saturday, 25 February 2017 15:20 (seven years ago) link
that song rules so hard
― flappy bird, Saturday, 25 February 2017 15:38 (seven years ago) link
the elephant in the room here is that the music of the Dirty Projectors is 1000% garbage
― example (crüt), Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:06 (seven years ago) link
on stunning display
― mookieproof, Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:11 (seven years ago) link
Re the Uproxx review, I thought it was a coup to respond to "an album of undisguised criticism of a public figure" with a critique that was essentially a self-indictment
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:43 (seven years ago) link
Like, responding to a grossly non-empathetic album with empathy? Thank you Caitlin. Who cares what the album sounds like we all know at this point what to expect tbqph
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:44 (seven years ago) link
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AGQLRKywRqg/hqdefault.jpg
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:46 (seven years ago) link
mistaking self-aggrandizement for some sort of brilliant coup against the system is what basically got trump elected, but ok
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:47 (seven years ago) link
glad we're past describing what albums sound like, it's long gotten in the way of me shoehorning in mini-histories of my life as a music writer in brooklyn
― the raindrops and drop tops of lived, earned experience (BradNelson), Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:51 (seven years ago) link
brad you live in queens
― maura, Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:57 (seven years ago) link
shhh they'll hear you
― the raindrops and drop tops of lived, earned experience (BradNelson), Saturday, 25 February 2017 18:58 (seven years ago) link
lots of dirty projecting in this thread
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:00 (seven years ago) link
This bad album is relatable to me bc I too am bad at my job
― Sufjan Grafton, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:04 (seven years ago) link
lmao
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:08 (seven years ago) link
Hasaa
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:12 (seven years ago) link
No for real I thought there were only two possible responses to this record, "I don't hear lyrics" vs. "This is some abusive bs", but Caitlin taking a more empathetic response mirrored my own listening to this record, and the concerns of "when honesty in artistry goes too far" or whatever
Also don't pin your fascist prez on me lol
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:15 (seven years ago) link
I'm fine with the uproxx piece because
a) it is neither claiming nor trying to be a review, so critiquing it by that standard is off
b) it really doesn't discuss How The Music Sounds that much less than "actual reviews" do. take the review on pitchfork -- if you went through that with a highlighter and highlighted everything that discussed the music in concrete terms, the proportions would not be dissimilar. not to pick on that review -- it's just obviously one of the more higher-profile outlets, and...
c) discussing How The Music Sounds can lead one astray when How Said Music Sounds is portrayed as more innovative than it actually is. (I haven't heard the full album -- why do that to myself if I'm not getting paid, and I have the wrong opinion on this album to ever be paid for it -- but I would be very surprised, given even the positive reviews, if it were better than the tracks I have heard. Or if the parts that were better were dave's and not, say, dawn's.) I would rather read almost any personal essay than 500 words rhapsodizing about dave's groundbreakingly experimental use of 808s & Heartbreak vocoding.
d) discussing How The Music Sounds is fucking pointless when there's this undertone (or, sometimes, overtone) of condescension and contempt to everything. being able to ignore said undertone is only really possible if you don't experience it on a regular basis.
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:21 (seven years ago) link
the only thing that bugs me really about the piece is the retroactive apology for calling the "first date with carly rae jepsen" piece shit. there's no need to apologize for that, the piece was in fact shit, and just because your ex wrote it doesn't change that fact. after all, one of the sole bright points of having an ex is a heightened ability to recognize when that person is being shit.
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:25 (seven years ago) link
sure but the sentence i highlighted would be terrible if it had been talking about personal experience in a similar way (which the rest of the essay does; i see zero self reflection, just a lot of "greatest hits of me" linking and the word "regret" over and over). it's all broad strokes and imprecise words. the music doesn't necessarily have to be discussed more, but as a professional it should be done better
― maura, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:26 (seven years ago) link
http://www.bkmag.com/2015/12/09/the-20-best-rap-albums-of-2015/
hm, i ever do wonder why Caitlin says
"Is this album more important than Dee Barnes? And if so, why is that?" about Dr. Dre's Compton, and
"Cold-blooded, sure, and deeply difficult listen to as a woman who cares about, oh I don’t know, being seen as a human being? ... Welcome to cognitive dissonance of the highest order, DS2 is a fucked-up velvety croaked masterpiece about unspeakable things. But maybe when we talk about Future, we should speak of them." about Future's DS2
but Dave Longstreth dragging his ex-girlfriend for a full album gets an empathetic ear
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:29 (seven years ago) link
ok but i'd also like to point out that the review is poorly written which undermines its own approach
― the raindrops and drop tops of lived, earned experience (BradNelson), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:34 (seven years ago) link
xp idk, maybe because some of us have been in abusive relationships with brilliant men and have experienced that remarkable cocktail of adoration and fear and hurt?
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:35 (seven years ago) link
"My behavior in the wake of that breakup remains some of the most regretted in my entire life. That period contains my worst memories and many regretted decisions. I don’t know much, but I do know that publicly being an sh*thead to my ex after we broke up is currently my biggest regret."
like on a purely mechanical level this is horrible
― the raindrops and drop tops of lived, earned experience (BradNelson), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:37 (seven years ago) link
also Whiney you have swum too far out I think, if you're wondering why she might have more to say about a problematic record made by a musician whose music she adores, as opposed to a rapper who she feels she can't enjoy because of his history of violence against women
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:40 (seven years ago) link
i think you've swum out too far into a sea of wokeness if you think being an abuse victim excuses weird racist hypocrisy?
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:42 (seven years ago) link
now I understand why in 1953 men self-medicated with martinis instead of going to therapy
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:44 (seven years ago) link
at the risk of cross-platform manthreading I was debating on whether to include an e):
e) at this point it is going to take a lot of convincing (or a lot of unprecedented awfulness of concept, like, xojane's worst hits levels) to get me to join a pile-on of an OK personal essay by a woman on grounds of it not being music writing didion
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:50 (seven years ago) link
like, there is not a single sentence in that entire piece that is not 1000 times better and betraying more self-reflection than "As we filed out, Haddaway's “What Is Love” played over the loudspeakers, prompting me to wonder once more, the only question that song prompts anyone to wonder: What is love?" (from the linked first-date-with-carly-rae-jepsen piece)
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:52 (seven years ago) link
well, to be fair, no one said that was an example of great music writing on the Haddaway thread
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Saturday, 25 February 2017 19:56 (seven years ago) link
fgti, do you think what Beyonce did to Jay Z on Lemonade was abusive?
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:26 (seven years ago) link
lmaoooo
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:32 (seven years ago) link
1st: whiney you're comparing end-of-year blurbs with a personal essay and saying she must be racist because of number of paragraphs-devoted-to and I'm sorry you are literally reaching so far here please somebody talk to the man right now so I don't feel crazy, also it is not at all my place or yours really to start a discussion about how white women are supposed to write about misogynist rap music, please somebody say something please
2nd: Frederik the implied violence-against-women that is present in this DP album is not present in the Beyonce record because of the opposite gender roles and also there is more conspicuousness on that record and its roll-out and subsequent nuptials suggesting that husband-and-wife felt it was an empowering and artistic statement for black women so no basically not at all; I did think that people going on "who is becky" scavenger hunts was closer to abusive behaviour
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:38 (seven years ago) link
Wtf. What violence?
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:40 (seven years ago) link
Have you even heard the record yet?
If you do not see the IMPLIED violence-against-a-woman in what is being sung on the DPs record then that's fine. Me, I think that telling the audience that you wrote a woman's breakthrough hit, singing "I wanted art / you wanted fame", singing "I'm shining like tears in the rain / you're shining like fifteen minutes of fame", plus all the excessive other b.s. slung on this album constitutes implied violence against a woman, yes.
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:45 (seven years ago) link
Have you heard the album?
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:48 (seven years ago) link
this thread is going placds
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:53 (seven years ago) link
*places
Ffs Frederick I have literally heard the record a dozen times over the last six months please stop talking to me
― fgti, Saturday, 25 February 2017 20:55 (seven years ago) link
It's the same two or three lines that are excerpted over and over, then coupled with 'plus everything else' and there really isn't that much else. It's a breakup album, there's rage, there's anger, there's sorrow. And yeah, Keep Your Name especially is contemptible and extreme, and it was probably really stupid to release that as the first single, but the storyline is also him beginning in that place and by the end of the album reaching some kind of peace and acceptance. And even in Keep Your Name he has the momentary self insight to sing 'I wasn't there for you / I didn't pay attention / I didn't take you seriously And I didn't listen' which he then loses again immediately. There are, like, different voices and shit on this album. I wonder what would have happened if he had released Cool Your Heart as the first single.
And no, it's different from Lemonade, mostly because Lemonade is an astonishing piece of art, and that tends to transcend problems, while nothing is transcend here. But some of the critique itt is way overblown. I don't hear implied violence in him saying he wrote a song he has a songwriting credit on, from a band where he was known as the main songwriter, that sounds an awful lot like a lot of other songs he has written.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 February 2017 21:00 (seven years ago) link
indie rock musicians and indie rock critics really deserve each other
― sleepingbag, Saturday, 25 February 2017 21:02 (seven years ago) link
Dre beat up Barnes, abt 25% of Future's songs're abt treating women like meaningless shit, Longstreth is being a dick about his ex. Whiney you are not comparing like w like
― albvivertine, Saturday, 25 February 2017 21:04 (seven years ago) link
What % of his songs is this album
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 25 February 2017 21:42 (seven years ago) link
No one piled on the bad writing btw it was in response to ppl calling it great writing
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 25 February 2017 21:47 (seven years ago) link
people just said they liked or appreciated the piece, they weren't nominating it for a pulitzer
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 21:52 (seven years ago) link
(I also think there is often an unspoken undercurrent of media politics behind a lot of what gets called good vs. bad writing, both in the personal and institutional senses, but that is an elephant that can just stay there in the room)
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 25 February 2017 22:02 (seven years ago) link
I appreciated the piece as well, even though I thought it had a fundamental flaw. For me it showed how the album mostly works as a resonant piece about being a shithead during breakups. And I appreciate everything katherine has written as well, along with most of what fgti has. katherine's writing has really underscored how lucky I am that the resonance for me with this album mostly has to do with dark nights in my own head (and that's what the screwed voice in Keep Your Name sounds like for me, btw, like a voice inside his head) and one or two text messages I immediately regretted and had to apologize for, and not stuff done to me. + it made it really clear that that doesn't have to do with luck at all but privilege.
There was another great point in your singles jukebox writeup, katherine, which is that it's not just misogynistic and problematic, but also really fucking boring to hear him wallow in despair and self-pity and male agression. But that's also why I think it's wrong to claim Robin Thicke is the only comparison, or that he should learn something from Geordie Fruit. This shit is commonplace to all indie, and to hone in and pile up on Longstreth misses how much like fifty other acclaimed indie albums this thing is.
And that include earlier Dirty Projectors albums, btw. It was kinda always weird that their relationship was chronicled by Dave on their albums, and that she never got to speak on her own. The problem was there from Bitte Orca onward.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 February 2017 22:19 (seven years ago) link
Bump.
― Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 15 March 2017 11:37 (seven years ago) link
So I have been listening to this a lot, which has surprised me, because I've found Longstreth pretty much intolerable since the press release for Rise Above, which was just horrific.
Everyone got that Keep Your Name is roleplaying right? He's the one who kept the name and who searched for fame. Also, noting that he wrote a hit for her is like a bare minimum of contempt a breakup album is supposed to include.
― gospodin simmel, Wednesday, 15 March 2017 13:41 (seven years ago) link