Big Star

Thank You Friends
Title: The Ardent Records Story
Label: Big Beat
Cat. No.: CDWIK 2 273

...or power pop aficionados, Big Star. Well, the label seems intertwined around the band. There were a host of artists who worked at the Ardent studios but this 2CD collection focuses on the decade (1966-1977) in which the Ardent sound was initially honed, featuring melodic yet edgy sounds that paid homage to the British sound of many of the so-called Invasion groups.

John Fry, co-founder of the label and recording engineer commented that , “I remember when the first Beatles single came out on Vee-Jay, John (King, friend and partner) and I twigged onto it right away and wanted to find out more about this stuff coming from England. So we got a foreign subscription to the New Music Express and discovered that there was this whole new world of groups. From then on we were Anglophiles.”

On that tip, in the liner notes to the old Twofer #1/RC CD, John Fry is quoted as saying the Ardent gang used order loads of British imports so they could study the records as they were properly mixed and mastered.

Interesting, didn't know that!

xp

Yes. I just read the same thing in the Bruce Eaton 33 1/3 book on Radio City, which must be where I read it in the first place.
xp

John Fry: I remember the day the first Beatles single came in on Veejay. We put that on and said, “What in the world? Who are these guys and what are they doing on Veejay? Veejay doesn’t have stuff like this— how did this happen?” It was the last sort of sound you would expect to come in on a Veejay record [the label’s bread and butter was r& b artists like Jimmy Reed, John Lee Hooker, and The Impressions]. That attracted as much attention as anything else. When we got curious— we being John King and me and to a lesser extent, by the radio days, Fred Smith because he was in the process of going off to Yale— we would go to any length to track it down. We were going to find out what this music is and where it came from and what’s going on. ‘Please Please Me’ enjoyed no success initially. The Veejay release … everyone just yawned. We said, “Okay, it’s England. There must be a music magazine in England, something like Billboard.” And we scoped out that it was New Musical Express— so we got an airmail subscription. Then we could see what was going on and there was this world of groups and we spotted a mail order record store— guy had his name John Lever and then Record Shoppe with an “e” on the end of it. We figured out how to send him some kind of international money order. At first we ordered The Beatles because we wanted to see what that was about. Then we’d just look at the pictures. “This artist looks kind of cool— let’s order one of theirs and see what they sound like.” We started to get other British artists and finally got to the place where we would send him money every once in a while and tell him we wanted a standing order to ship any new release by the artists on this list as soon as he received it. The interesting thing about that was the Beatle records and a lot of other records then were coming out sometimes months ahead in England from the time they were issued in the United States. A lot of people at a lot radio stations became our best friends because we’d say, “Hey, how’d you like to have a Beatle exclusive early?” When Capitol finally decided they were going to issue ‘I Want To Hold Your Hand’ I happened to go into the Capitol distribution office here, the guy handed me the single and said, “Do you know anything about this? They’re putting a big push on this. I don’t know if it’s going to do any good or not.” I just laughed out loud. He asked me if it was going to be hit and I said “Yes it’s going to be hit.” It’s so weird because

Eaton, Bruce (2009-05-01). Big Star's Radio City (33 1/3) (pp. 16-17). Continuum US.

That was Carole Manning looking at Beatles for Sale. Which is my favorite Beatles album!

There are great photos of the band taken by Carole Manning posted on tumblr by somebody named aliphantparts.

At first we ordered The Beatles because we wanted to see what that was about. Then we’d just look at the pictures. “This artist looks kind of cool— let’s order one of theirs and see what they sound like.” We started to get other British artists and finally got to the place where we would send him money every once in a while and tell him we wanted a standing order to ship any new release by the artists on this list as soon as he received it. The interesting thing about that was the Beatle records and a lot of other records then were coming out sometimes months ahead in England from the time they were issued in the United States.

Yeah, that definitely qualifies as ahead-of-the-curve. Arguably, the only folks in the US more ahead of the curve than that were those who heard George Harrison sit in with a local band at the VFW hall in Eldorado, IL in 1963 (near Benton, where George was visiting his sister).

All the critics in the '70s pointed out that Big Star was like the Byrds. I think the sense of a band being really restrained in the service of...piloting the songs makes sense. But there's nothing really all that Byrds-like about Big Star, maybe there's some similarity to the first song on Notorious or something like "Jesus Is Just Alright" from Easy Rider. The Zeppelin comparison has been made; the third Led Zep record has some similarities to #1 Record. "Ramble On" maybe.

xpost Comparing the UK and US Beatles releases could be pretty instructive as they came out, come to think of it (Somebody in the Wall Street Journal recently compared UK and US Rubber Souls, and claimed to know/fairly plausibly pitched why the changes, in terms of Capitol trying to adjust to trends).

Listening to Prix's Historix, recorded in post-Big Star 70s, out this year: maybe it will grow on me, but so far seems like most of the best tracks were on '15's mostly amazing Ork box, and further highlighted by that context. Which is impressive, considering that *most* of the Ork seems like highlights, but here, the whole thing seems like a picturesque yet distant herd, even when I turn it up. Producer-guitarist Tiven keeps it moving along---15 tracks in 41 minutes, awright---but lead vocals, mostly by Tommy Hoehn, don't project as much personality as any of the Big Stars, incl Jody, who ain't here, unfortunately, though Bell is, and Chilton and Dickinson show up in the background sometimes. Maybe I shouldn't have listened so soon after Rock City, although I liked a lot more of that one right away.
More info and Tiven's backstory here:
http://hozacrecords.com/prix/
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Need to listen to Rock CIty, I guess. Just thinking that my favorite Beatles album was one of the US ones, Something New. Also had a soft spot, or some kind of a spot for The Beatle's Second Album, maybe because I thought what other group could have such a poorly titled record company artifact turn out so good.

Oh, speaking of Terry Manning's xpost own album, which he was ordered to do after his off-the-cuff Box Tops parody, my fave track is the wild extended preview of "I Can't Stand The Rain"---he was still working on the tracks for Ann Peebles when he got a desperate call from a buddy, so took the Hi Rhythm Gang, and a tape recorder, over to fill in for a no-show for some lucky Senior Prom, soon in musical flames.

The Beatle's Second Album

Prix is too fussy, too worked out in the wrong ways. The arrangements and performances don't breathe. Tiven's production trademark, actually. Similar to what's wrong with Van Duren's first album, which could have been great had it not sounded so canned. Prix is not completely horrible, but the version Chilton did of "She Might Look My Way" is magnificent in its simplicity; the Prix version fucks up the beautiful chromatic riff that begins the song, obscures it. The best version of "Take Me Home and Make Me Like It" is on the Chilton live-at-CBGB album, One Day in NYC; the version here is dinky. I think Tommy Hoehn is OK, sounds kinda like Ian Lloyd of the Stories, or Van Duren, for that matter. Whatever else you might say about the Tiven Chilton stuff, at least Alex sounds soulful, if uncomfortable with the bsnality of "Every Time I Close My Eyes."
I love the Beatles' For Sale. They sound so relaxed, vocally, so distanced from any kind of hysteria. Great singing. Can't bring myself to listen to them any more, but that one I can still enjoy. And "Hide Your Love Away," Lennon sings it so well.

Can't hardly stand to listen to them anymore either, especially a whole album from beginning to end. Sometimes can listen to one song over and over to see what's going on, if not what's going ahn.

The Beatles, I mean. My Big Star burnout recovery rate is higher.

_The Beatle's Second Album_

Sorry, there was more than one Beatle at that point. /The Beatles' Second Album/.

My pick for their best record. Dave Marsh made a more-than-convincing case for this being their best album in a 33 1/3rd-esque book (shares it's title with the record).

Man, I need to get back to that earlier stuff---speaking of xpost Ian Lloyd of Stories, I wasn't that big on him (as a lot of other people were), or whoever sang lead w the Beckies, but otherwise, both bands made good use on record of Michael Brown's melodies etc., after he left Left Banke (haven't heard the late 60s self-titled LP by Montage, also w much MB input). He wasn't trying to rehash Left Banke w those two, and I can imagine Chilton still listening.

Some good stuff on that Beckies record. Used to find it in the dollar bins, got issued on CD last year.

What Prix kind of reminds me of is the record by the Dudes, who are totally obscure today. We're No Angels, from 1975. A Bob Segarini project, similar to his work with the Wackers, except that the Dudes record is more like the Zombies or the Bee Gees, in spots, and also almost disco bubblegum elsewhere. I think it's a very enjoyable album with a uniquely light touch, a transitional record--pointing the way toward the Records, even, but with a crass and unhip undertone that is very refreshing.
http://images.45worlds.com/f/ab/dudes-were-no-angels-2-ab.jpg

Very appealing description (also, Bob Segarini is one of the great rock names, of course)! Don't get how that could be like murky, genteel ol' Prix. Now that you mention it, think Creem was into the Dudes, and maybe the Wackers.

Really impressed with Artful Dodger, great songs and a hint of the hard rock muscle that Cheap Trick would add to power pop to become a stadium band

Here ya go, Dow, the full Dudes album. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2iylep_dudes-1975-we-re-no-angels-full-album_music

why "raspberry"?

We're No Angels [Columbia, 1975]
The Consumer Guide Raspberry for 1975 is awarded posthumously to this Zombies tribute, which died almost immediately upon release, dismissed on name alone by everybody except diehard Wackers fans, an exclusive grouping that does not include your reviewer. Dudey it's not. There's a lovely pre-Pepper feel to it, although the bite of the Raspberries' Starting Over or Big Star's Radio City is missed, and a nice ripoff eclecticism operates as well--not so easy to evoke all the young hooples while borrowing a catch from Rod Argent. Anybody who can tell me where Brian Greenaway stole the little bit that goes "oh Lylee lady" wins a prize. B+

The Byrds element in the chorus of "The Ballad of El Goodo" is so palpable, like I could put my finger on the exact Byrds song that it comes from, but I can't. I'm not sure that song exists.

The vocal sounds like McGuinn. And the song it reminds me the most of is ... "5D (Fifth Dimension)"

But I was thinking about the verse, not necessarily the chorus.

Just listened to "The Ballad of El Goodo" and for a split second I thought I could hear a backing vocal by Rasa Davies.

Don't know if "El Goodo" is structured like a Byrds tune, myself, but I hear the general resemblance. I love "5D," but isn't it in 3/4 time? Dunno. Perhaps it was the stateliness of "Way Out West," for example, that reminded critics of the Byrds. "She Don't Care About Time," maybe? Parsons' "100 Years"? Critics also compared them to the Who, and maybe they meant Who Sell Out? "Our Love Was, Is"?
Alex used to do "5D"--I remember him covering it in a show I saw around 1991. And come to think of it, maybe he sang in those days just a bit like David Crosby? "Everybody's Been Burned"? "Psychodrama City"?

could totally see a cover of "Everybody's Been Burned" fitting right in on 3rd/Sister Lovers

Yeah, "5D!" Except when I play it, it's like, well, not really! It's in a different key and a different meter (xp) and has a different chord progression and a different melodic countour...

There's something in the harmony in the "El Goodo" chorus, I think.

Yeah, "5D" is in 3/4. I wasn't thinking the two songs sounded exactly the same, just that the way the lyrics and vocals flow seems somewhat similar.

I wish I could write something on Big Star's harmonic language, it's distinctive within rock. I get what James means about something similar to "5D," sure. Fwiw, Radio City is unique in that its first cut lays out the strategy for the rest of the songs-chromaticism, major six chords, augmented and diminished chords. The first part of "Daisy Glaze" echoes "Oh My Soul"'s chord progression. "Life Is White" also echoes "O My Soul" in the brilliant little piano part in the middle.

I think the general similarity between those two songs is that the melody on the verse is relatively static, it doesn't move around that much, it is kind of the audio equivalent of a cartoon character marching through a loop of the same desert background, so that the contrast when the melody rises and the harmonies kick in on the chorus is extra exciting. I mean maybe there is a little more melody than a Rex Harrison Sprechgesang but not too much more.

Be very interested to read this Big Star harmonic language piece you wish you could write. I never tried to figure out any of their songs but "September Gurls," which is probably the easiest one. I mean I knew somebody who couldn't figure out the intro but maybe they didn't really try.

xpost: re xgau on Dudes: maybe because he liked the Raspberries? Or a big cheerful lip-fart to other peoples' reactions?
I don't get the "lovely pre-Pepper's feel", def not the Zombies or their Rod Argent, though maybe his early 70s band (Argent)? Anyway this is unmistakably early 70s, and vocals fairly enough share though maybe not add to the charming cheese of a catchy polyester bellbottom band whose guitars know how to dance, also rock, at least on "Rock N Roll Debutante". "My Mind's On You" is a suave prom ballad, vocals edging closer to Steven Tyler than James DeYoung---*just* close enough, every time, but keeping the suspense in there. Closing title track is like good Mott & Bowie, although this may have seemed superfluous in '75, when the originals were so much with us.
So help-themselves eclectic that they even brush by power-pop ballads too, just occasionally (no sorry or starry eyes that I noticed, but the humor and calm self-confidence and sometimes somewhat formal, greeting-card serenades fit).

vocals fairly *soon* share, that is

The guitars dance a lot more than they "rock", in the usual early 70s sense, though later on Nile Rodgers reminded us that such a distinction could be bullshit.

el goodo reminded me of the byrds from the first time i heard it

regarding the beatles influence, it makes more sense if one factors the later beatles stuff into the equation too. moments of the first two big star records kind of build off that harder rockin crunchier sound. to me, anyway.

I totally get that, James. Open your heart to the whole universe/ain't no one going to turn me 'round. The bridge to "El Goodo," isn't that brilliant? "If we can"--guitar lick--"just hold on." That's some great writing.

Yeah, Christgau saying the Dudes album was a Zombies "tribute" is a bit much. But "Deeper and Deeper" I think does come close to Colin Blunstone and the Zombies, in the sense that it's a modified, callow, soul ballad. Prolly the best song on the record.

Okay just listened to a few Grifters songs since they were mentioned up thread and on the one that just came on, "Last Man Alive," it totally sounds like the guy is doing a Jonathan RIchman imitation. Now he sounds completely different. Oh wait, this is a different artist now called Grifter, the same way there is Artful Dodger and The Artful Dodger.

And that Grifters track came from the excellent Oxford American Southern Music CD. That's how I got to Memphis.

"One thing I know for sure now..." check this out, James: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8yMgaKD8n0

Sure, will do thanks.

Critics also compared them to the Who, and maybe they meant /Who Sell Out/? "Our Love Was, Is"?

I'm thinking more "I Can't Reach You."

Speaking of "El Goodo" for instance, says here that Big Star were influenced by and even er sourced "specific riffs" from the acoustic guitar tracks of Gimmer Nicholson, whose The Christopher Idylls was finally resurrected on vinyl this year by Light In The Attic---excerpts, along w ones by Cargoe and The Hot Dogs, whose Say What You Mean I'm listening to right now:
https://vinylwitness.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/thank-you-friends-the-memphis-pop-scene-part-one/

Okay, just finished first YouTube listen to Say What You Mean, by the Hot Dogs: Terry Manning producing and playing lead guitar, I Am The Cosmos drummer Richard Rosebrough among the drummers here, Cargoe's harmonies sometimes assisting Bill Rennie's lead singing & bass, Greg Reding's keys, guitar and vocals, in a tunefully strong, texture-flexing and sufficiently rocking (to rowdy!) endeavor: early Wet Willie (or early solo Andy Fairweather-Low, maybe pre-Fillmore-boogied-out Humble Pie) come to mind, but--considering even some light Latiny touches to the roll, in the second track---overall it might be most like Stephen Stills' s/t solo debut---"Love The One You're With" etc---without, you know, Stephen Stills. Yay. Although he might as well be on a couple of lugubrious,back-to-back Side 2 ballads--but they perk up again after that, even getting to a rowdy closer.
LP posted here--if you can't see it, check YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmkN_tqN8m0

Another blog called it "folk-country-silk-rock": the "silk" could be the para-power-pop appeal, yeah.

hey that's pretty good, never heard of it before thx for the heads up!

The Gimmer Nicholson album was first reissued in 1994 on Terry Manning's Lucky 7 label. You can def hear how Bell copped his licks on the first Big Star album on "Watch the Sunrise." I picked up a copy of Marlin Greene's 1972 Elektra album Tiptoe Past the Dragon last year, and was struck by a track called "Masquerade Ball," whose acoustic guitar licks were a dead ringer for "Watch the Sunrise"'s.
The guitarist is Gimmer Nicholson, who appears on the record along with the Muscle Shoals Sound band, and the record seems to have been mixed or mastered in Memphis by Terry Manning. It's a cool record that has affinities to the work being done at Ardent, and it's a Christian-themed album. Wonder if Chris Bell heard it. (Marlin was a big Muscle Shoals sideman, played guitar on "When a Man Loves a Woman.")
Marlin's LP here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHjpeyaN0pQ
"Masquerade Ball" is the second track.

ha yeah, that is definitely very close to watch the sunrise.
the gimmer nicholson record is totally great, hadn't heard it before the reissue this year. kind of unbelievable it was recorded in the late 60s.