Every huge artist has their "New Jersey" - a huge event album that ultimately feels a bit hollow & signals a career decline

followed by a tribute to Caitlyn Jenner that samples "She's a Lady" and mentions how once he tried on his mom's bra and high heels.

yeah at this point album sales are virtually useless for new jersey calculations, at best you could try to approximate based on singles and stuff. the funny thing is that the ARTPOP singles actually did kinda okay? even though it was obvious the crest had passed and she wasn't a phenomenon anymore. but you need more time to tell - - maybe the next one is this big comeback. who knows.

setting aside the "too soon to tell" factor, i dunno - - - back during the great new jersey debates i gradually came to believe the entire thing really only made sense as an artifact of the soundscan era, for various reasons relating to how albums were marketed and bought, and any attempts to transpose it to earlier or later periods always felt like something didn't match up right. the dumb massiveness of an ultimately pointless 'event' album just doesn't happen in the same way now i think. before thriller most albums weren't built up enough as 'events' and after the death of physical media nothing feels massive in the same way.

yeah there's really no contemporary equivalent of people actually lining up outside a Sam Goody to buy Use Your Illusions or whatever, and it was really only a thing for a fleeting moment in time.

*Illusion

Yeezus in no way qualifies as a New Jersey. Maybe if mbdtf was considered a flop it could have been but then he had mercy dominating the summer 2 years later so... Nah

I don't know about the Illusions fitting into this category. I doubt too many folks are actively seeking out New Jersey (pun intended) these days, but I bet the GN'R back catalog still gets plenty of sales. I don't think November Rain, You Could Be Mine etc were hits because of left over good feelings from Appetite and Lies. Then again I love Chinese Democracy so what the hell do I know.

Skyscraper was probably your New Jersey

Covered upthread and basically a consensus pick. But I was more just citing it as an album I strongly remember people lining up for

the funny thing is that the ARTPOP singles actually did kinda okay?

The Fame/Fame Monster: "Just Dance" (#1), "Poker Face" (#1), "Love Game" (#5), "Bad Romance" (#2), "Telephone" (#3), "Alejandro" (#5)

Born This Way: "Born This Way" (#1), "Judas" (#10), "Edge Of Glory" (#3), "You And I" (#6)

Artpop: "Applause" (#4), "Do What U Want" (13)

--

Keep in mind that Keep The Faith had a top ten hit too.

"Judas" (#10) being her "Living In Sin" (#9), imo

With art pop those are just peaks, how long was applause even on the charts

d-40 you realize i'm saying the success of the artpop singles pale in comparison to the previous, right?

like Yeezus in no way qualifies as a New Jersey. Maybe if mbdtf was considered a flop it could have been makes no sense

granted the title throws people off who come into this nerdery late in the game - there's more to it than just "a huge event album that ultimately feels a bit hollow & signals a career decline". a new jersey is never a comeback album - which is the implication if mbdtf had flopped - but rather than bloated overappreciated sequel to the true success

imo between kanye being a career artist and that career happening over the industry's overall decline you can't really pin a new jersey on him. a platinum album in 2013 isn't far from a 3xplatinum album in 2004.

just remembered what a brazen and empty rewrite of "bad romance" "judas" was. wonder if blatant self-plagiarism of a hit single off the preceding album is something of a sub-theme of NJs

So the Yeezy/Adidas line may be the New Jersey.

d-40 you realize i'm saying the success of the artpop singles pale in comparison to the previous, right?

― da croupier, Thursday, September 3, 2015 10:57 AM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was reinforcing your argument

granted the title throws people off who come into this nerdery late in the game - there's more to it than just "a huge event album that ultimately feels a bit hollow & signals a career decline". a new jersey is never a comeback album - which is the implication if mbdtf had flopped - but rather than bloated overappreciated sequel to the true success

― da croupier, Thursday, September 3, 2015 11:02 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Confused pronouns - I meant mbdtf would have been the new jersey

Had it flopped. Agreed he hasn't had one, probably won't since he's got such longevity

I don't know about the Illusions fitting into this category. I doubt too many folks are actively seeking out New Jersey (pun intended) these days, but I bet the GN'R back catalog still gets plenty of sales. I don't think November Rain, You Could Be Mine etc were hits because of left over good feelings from Appetite and Lies. Then again I love Chinese Democracy so what the hell do I know.

― DavidLeeRoth, Thursday, September 3, 2015 11:31 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

New Jersey-ism doesn't really require that the hits are only hits off momentum though, and it's almost a given that they have one or two songs that get cherry-picked for greatest hits albums. They can be major songs in their own right, it's just more typical for them to decline in rank over time. "November Rain" is IMO the only thing that feels remotely out of the pattern for UYI, and nobody is buying both of those discs for that one song in 2015. "You Could Be Mine"? "Yesterdays"? "Civil War"? "Estranged"? No idea what those even are tbh. New Jersey itself has "Bad Medicine" which one hears from time to time.

Or, as I was saying in August 2012:

I also buy Use Your Illusion - those records both have gone, what, six times platinum, with seven Mainstream Rock top-ten hits, including two number ones.... and I would venture to say that MR #7 "November Rain" is the only one still in regular rotation anywhere. Maybe "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" a bit? It's a monster hit album that just had no long-term constituency, no traction in people's hearts, and no hope of making the "best of decade" countdown circuit.

So, the key here is the bloated hugeness of the BIGGEST BAND IN THE WORLD dropping THE BIGGEST ALBUM OF THE YEAR, only to find within a short time that whatever they did next it wasn't going to be very interesting to anybody, and that meanwhile nobody really stanned for the album(s) as essential. At this point I think anybody getting on board would understand them to basically be a one-album band.

UYI also won the New Jersey poll, for what that's worth.

You Could Be Mine was partly a hit because of its use in Terminator 2. It's still strongly associated with that movie in my mind, but it's not a song I think most people consider part of the G'n'R cannon the way November Rain probably is.

I know it's already been disqualified in a couple of different ways, but I think it's worth noting that Yeezus falls under the category of "artistic left turn," so even if it did flop I don't think it's a New Jersey.

I think the impact of grunge weighs heavily on the New Jersey-ness of UYI and the way you describe it that makes sense as a New Jersey album. If Guns had put out another Appetite in 95-96 (which was certainly Slash's aim) no matter how damn good the album was, outside of the readers of Metal Edge, it would have been too late.

That Macklemore video feels more "trying too hard" than NJ imo

Wonder if there'll ever be a NJ album discussion that doesn't mainly concern the definition of NJ

I watched the Macklemore video with the sound off (I'm at work) and it reminded me of that Janet Jackson video with Cab Calloway.

I think the impact of grunge weighs heavily on the New Jersey-ness of UYI and the way you describe it that makes sense as a New Jersey album. If Guns had put out another Appetite in 95-96 (which was certainly Slash's aim) no matter how damn good the album was, outside of the readers of Metal Edge, it would have been too late.

― DavidLeeRoth, Thursday, September 3, 2015 12:01 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think so, I think GnR was iconic enough to be outside of simply being a hair metal band....I think it might have been more like Metallica's Load era in terms of reception...not exactly of the moment but not ignored either (this is in an alternate universe where Axl isn't crazy obv)...

So, the key here is the bloated hugeness of the BIGGEST BAND IN THE WORLD dropping THE BIGGEST ALBUM OF THE YEAR, only to find within a short time that whatever they did next it wasn't going to be very interesting to anybody, and that meanwhile nobody really stanned for the album(s) as essential

― Gorefest Frump (Doctor Casino), Thursday, September 3, 2015 12:30 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I care too much about my computer to check this entire thread for mentions of it, and obviously it's too early to tell, but Random Access Memories?

Yeah that def fits imo, but I'm sure croup will say it's wrong

If Guns had put out another Appetite in 95-96

I love the idea of a reunited GnR putting out an album called Another 'Appetite'.

in what universe is human after all a slippery when wet?

I love the idea of a reunited GnR putting out an album called Another 'Appetite'.

― half the staying power of Erasure (Eazy), Thursday, September 3, 2015 1:40 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Appetite II: Still Hungry

glad Spirits Having Flown didn't make it into the poll, cause it rules

appetite for construction, axl's positive vibes album, give me some reggae, etc

glad Spirits Having Flown didn't make it into the poll, cause it rules

― the naive cockney chorus (Simon H.),

NJ albums have their stans.

all rap new jerseys are actually called new jeruz

Yeah that def fits imo, but I'm sure croup will say it's wrong

― Ma$e-en-scène (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 September 2015 18:30 (1 hour ago) Permalink

In fairness to da croupier he's been super-consistent in applying his criteria.

Feel like Doc Casino is probably otm with regard to the Soundscan observation. I think that, with a few exceptions, the New Jersey era is very specifically 1983-2003 or so. And much as I love this thread and playing the New Jersey game, it really feels like the "Every huge artist" designation in the thread title is not accurate. Tons of artists have a giant dropoff in sales between records, or just have the standard build-up/peak/gradual decline in sales where records on both sides of the divide have a couple memorable hits. The records that sells great and generates lots of hits but is mostly forgotten feels like the exception.

I heard civil war on sirius a bunch recently and I'm not happy about it

I mean in theory I support their cvs-style deep digging, but sometimes it hurts in practice

all rap new jerseys are actually called new jeruz
― mods = chickenshit idiots (D-40), Thursday, September 3, 2015 2:42 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wrath of the Math was Jeru's New Jeruz

btw, just because i'm a crazy person and curious, here are spotify play counts to date for all GNR singles through "The Spaghetti Incident?", ranked.

86,784,205 AFD Sweet Child O' Mine
59,686,212 AFD Paradise City
53,465,299 AFD Welcome to the Jungle
44,892,725 UYI November Rain
39,107,874 UYI Knockin' on Heaven's Door
23,442,599 UYI Don't Cry
18,231,917 GNRL Patience
15,619,953 UYI Civil War
13,024,494 UYI Live and Let Die
11,198,350 UYI You Could Be Mine
6,627,950 AFD Nightrain
4,790,927 UYI Yesterdays
4,602,414 UYI Estranged
4,187,279 TSI Since I Don't Have You
3,254,502 TSI Ain't it Fun
3,857,019 AFD It's So Easy
681,727 TSI Hair of the Dog

on the one hand, this actually makes UYI's singles appear to have some staying power - in the top tier, while they all fall beneath the Appetite hits, there's not a super dramatic dropoff. by the way in case you didn't notice, those top tier numbers are really good. GNR is still a very popular band (film at 11); pearl jam's biggest song ("alive") stands around 32 million though i don't know how long they've been on spotify. the only remotely comparable band that i think beats GNR hands-down is nirvana.

nonetheless i think those top-tier numbers may disguise a weakness down below. in general, the 'floor' of plays for Appetite album cuts is right around 2 million, suggesting a baseline of people actually listening to the album. some of them, like "rocket queen" (4.5 mil) are competitive for the list above. the UYI album cuts all cluster down around 1 mil, with a few like "dead horse" dropping to the 700K range. i would not complain about those numbers, but they don't exactly correspond to two discs that have gone 7x platinum each, and basically half as many people seem to approach UYI as an 'album' than do Appetite.

HOWEVER to be fair: if we compare to bon jovi, the drop-off there is MUCH more dramatic, mostly because the cluster of at-the-time hits for new jersey did not turn out to include a "november rain." i don't know if these can be compared 1:1 to GNR's numbers because i don't know how long they've each been on spotify, but i'm assuming each band's catalog is internally susceptible to comparison. behold:

71,143,673 SWW Livin' on a Prayer
48,875,869 SWW You Give Love A Bad Name
26,779,752 SWW Wanted Dead Or Alive
9,589,997 NJ Bad Medicine
9,390,553 NJ I'll Be There For You
6,238,248 NJ Born To Be My Baby
2,093,242 NJ Lay Your Hands On Me
1,983,935 SWW Never Say Goodbye
874,734 NJ Livin' in Sin

bear in mind that "Bad Medicine" and "I'll be There For You" both topped the Hot 100 (as did "Livin' On A Prayer" and "Bad Name"). "It's My Life," btw, has 44,905,457 plays. damn.

that relative dropoff is definitely interesting, but along with the question of how long a track has been on spotify, there's also the question of how many versions. i.e., Bon Jovi has four albums on spotify with "living on a prayer" on it, five different "bad medicine" tracks. meanwhile gnr has two of "patience", "paradise city" etc. not to say the drop-off isn't still telling, but its not a metric designed to really give us that info.

also where did you find those numbers? at first i assumed you were just looking at the "popular" list but that's way more thorough omg is there a way to search for the count on ANY song? gimme gimme gimmme!

yeah but if you check, they combine those plays - - mouse over any of the "bad medicines" and they're all 9,589,997.

oh! yeah! it's super useful (for nerds like me) but hidden: you mouse over the little, like, cell-phone reception popularity bars, to the right of the running time. number of plays will appear.

oh man i never noticed if you scroll over that little bar at the end you see the number. well, down the wormhole i go.

well that's now let me confirm that the "popular" tracks aren't necessarily the artist's ten biggest. i.e. "the first part" and "detroit has a skyline" have more spins than "precision auto"

no way RAM is Daft Punk's NJ surely?? isn't it more like Human After All? ah what do i know i've proven crap at this New Jersey game so far.

things you need to play the new jersey game like a true pedantic champ

1. a willingness to consult wikipedia or your local library
2. the ability to count
3. the determination to utilize 1 & 2 even though you knooooooow this album was commercially overrated based on anecdotal evidence
4. the strength to move on when stats suggest the artist may not have had a big event album whose relative success was clearly built off the work before it more than the material itself, as proven by the big drop on the following album

Slippery When Wet - 12m sold, two #1s ("Livin On A Prayer," "You Give Love A Bad Name") and a third top ten ("Wanted Dead Or Alive")
New Jersey - 7m sold, two #1s ("Bad Medicine," "I'll Be There For You") and three more top tens ("Born To Be My Baby," "Lay Your Hands On Me," "Living In Sin")
Keep The Faith - 2m sold, one top ten hit ("Bed Of Roses")

based on this information, it shouldn't be hard to figure where Daft Punk goes in the New Jersey game (clue: #4)

the flipside of 3 is when you don't want to admit an album was commercially puffed up. a personal example: admitting that the 4xplatinum Monster with hits like "Bang And Blame," "Strange Currencies" and "Star 69" hasn't had the same kind of hold as the 4xplatinum Automatic For The People with hits like "Man On The Moon," "Everybody Hurts" and "Nightswimming." But personal taste aside, i can't deny it.

i guess daft punk are wayyyy bigger in europe, especially france, than in the US. but still not bon jovi big, i don't think. certainly as far as this thread goes, they basically are not, definitionally, a "huge artist" and thus cannot have a new jersey.

but even if we look at world sales, they had two hit-enough-for-electronica albums, a turkey, and then a huge album with their biggest hit ever.

if the album after random access goes platinum off the ill-remembered "Groovy Times (feat KC and John Legend)" and then the one after that flops, the former could be fathomably a new jersey. but massiveness aside they haven't even had the arc.