20 minutes is too long for epics - I propose 8:30 minutes so that I can vote for 'November Rain'.
― ArchCarrier, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 12:55 (nine years ago) link
How about 8+?
― how's life, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:00 (nine years ago) link
so we're not going in the order already established?
― example (crüt), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:01 (nine years ago) link
I guess this is kind of a hectic time for me, so if leee wants to go before me I'm down.
― example (crüt), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:03 (nine years ago) link
I thought it was a song > 10 min long? I'm not sure if 10 was the magic # but length was a defining characteristic
― hardcore dilettante, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:25 (nine years ago) link
If "epics" poll is really about any 10/20/xx minute track in any genre, I'm stoked for that! It needs a pretty strict nomination process though, I can think of a a couple of hundred ambient tracks alone that would qualify.
I'd say the minimum running time must be at least 10 minutes, though. If you set it at 8 or something, there are way too many "normal", not-particularly-lengthy-for-its-genre tracks valid in genres like metal, techno, jazz, prog rock, etc.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:27 (nine years ago) link
Maybe there rules would make it work?
1) A track must be at least 10 (or 15/20, whatever you decide) minutes long to be valid.
2) A track that's shorter than 10/15/20 minutes can be valid if it's at least twice as long as the second-longest track on the same album.
This way you could include tracks that are not super-long "objectively", but still epic within their own context/genre.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:31 (nine years ago) link
what if it only was released as a single? (Beat Bop for instance)
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:37 (nine years ago) link
2) A track that's shorter than 10/15/20 minutes can be valid if it's at least twice as long as the second-longest track average track length on the same album.
― ArchCarrier, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:49 (nine years ago) link
Not 'Estranged', though...
― ArchCarrier, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 13:51 (nine years ago) link
"Beat Bop" isn't super-long within the context of old school rap, the full-length "Rapper's Delight" is 15 minutes, and many other old school singles are around 10 minutes too.
I doubt Leee or anyone is gonna start calculating average track lengths within a whole genre, so non-album singles would still be problematic... But I don't see how this poll could be run in a non-problematic way, since the definition of "epic" length varies so much between genres.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 14:32 (nine years ago) link
ok I don't have mod priveleges fyi (don't want them either) but I will try my best to keep up with all the comments on this thread. I've made some executive decisions about the order so tuff titties if you don't like it (keepin Iggy at the bottom since flopson's target date is still months out). To-date here's where we're at:
62. Italo - daavid63. Spacemen 3 and related acts - Elvis Telecom64. “Epics” (non-classical division) - Leee65. Yo La Tengo/Dump - Clemenza66. The Boo Radleys - Bee OK67. Emo/Screamo/Mallcore/(post)Hardcore - Mordy68. Creedence Clearwater Revival - crüt69. Hard Rock/Hair Metal - how’s life70. Extreme Metal - Viceroy71. Stephin Merritt - Gukbe72. Metallica - Pleasant Plains73. Spoon - Bee OK74. Nirvana - Gavin, Leeds75. Fairport Convention et al (R Thompson, S Denny) - Billy Dods76. Queen - charlie h77. Can - Z S78. Tom Petty - rogermexico79. Ramones - tipsy mothra (finished)80. Jimi Hendrix - some dude81. Stereolab - Moka82. Bauhaus/Tones on Tail-Love and Rockets/Peter Murphy - Bee OK83. Genesis + solo - NickB84. The Smiths - nate woolls85. Pearl Jam - VegemiteGrrl86. The Burt Bacharach songbook - C. Grisso/McCain87. Dead C - Raymond Cummings88. Royal Trux + side projects - sleeve89. John Fahey - Naive Teen Idol?90. Rush - Matt #291. Oasis - pollrunner needed for this one92. George Michael - Ismael Klata93. Talking Heads - Bee OK94. Gamble & Huff/Philly International Records - jetfan95. Van Halen - Johnny Fever96. Billy Joel - Doctor Casino97. Low - aldo98. Nine Inch Nails - chap99. REM - rogermexico.100. Bjork - Eric H.101. Wu-Tang Clan - Spottie102. Shoegaze/Dream Pop/Post-rock (Albums and EPs) - Bee OK103. Covers - kornrulez6969104. New Pornographers/AC Newman - staggerlee105. They Might Be Giants - Johnny Fever106. No Wave - sarahell107. DFA - Van Horn Street108. Misfits/Samhain/Danzig - gr8080109. Beatles solo careers - Οὖτις110. Erykah Badu - Eric H.111. Nick Cave/Bad Seeds/Birthday Party/et al - charlie h112. Herbie Hancock - crüt113. Aphex Twin - Stevie D114. Blondie - Bee OK115. Electroclash - soref116. Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis - Spottie117. Siouxsie & the Banshees/The Creatures - LeRooLeRoo118. AM Radio Gold - Jeff W119. Eurovision - nxd120. Steve Albini - nate woolls121. Yellow Magic Orchestra - frogbs122. Elvis Presley - Euler123. Byrds + offshoots - kornrulez6969124. Cardiacs + affiliated - imago125. Tropicalia/MPB - Frederik B126. Chic Organization - 127. Stooges/Iggy Pop -
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 17:23 (nine years ago) link
I was thinking about this yesterday. Would a 2010-14 poll really be all that fun? At this point, I think it'd be more fun to poll the years spanning the life of ilx up to now. 2001-2014, because we could rewrite A LOT of history that way (which might be a bad thing, but it also might not be).― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 1:31 PM (1 week ago)
― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 1:31 PM (1 week ago)
[...]
plan would be to do it like sometime this summer right?― call all destroyer, Friday, January 23, 2015 1:42 PM (1 week ago)
― call all destroyer, Friday, January 23, 2015 1:42 PM (1 week ago)
When did ILM officially begin? Was it 2000 or 2001? (I didn't get here until 2002, and didn't start participating with any regularity until 2003.)― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 2:28 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink2000.― example (crüt), Friday, January 23, 2015 2:31 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post PermalinkAhh, so the poll would cover 2000-2014 then.― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 2:31 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 2:28 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
2000.
― example (crüt), Friday, January 23, 2015 2:31 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Ahh, so the poll would cover 2000-2014 then.
― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 2:31 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 17:35 (nine years ago) link
^^^so i the poll-crew on board with this?
seems like something that could run concurrently with an artist poll? idk
― Steph def def (Spottie), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 17:37 (nine years ago) link
idgi is the idea just a tracks poll for the last 15 years?
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 17:40 (nine years ago) link
All polls should get in the queue apart from eoy polls otherwise we would get a 2000-2014 metal poll and scik mouthy would be able to restart the all time poll.Its not fair on anyone who signed up. This thread isnt just for artist polls anymore.
― The Ghost of (strychnine), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:00 (nine years ago) link
ILM Top 100 2005-2009: TRACKS
sure, but 2004-2008 hasn't been done amirite
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:04 (nine years ago) link
ILM Top 100 2000-2004: ALBUMSILM Top 100 2000-2004: TRACKS
ILM Top 100 2005-2009: ALBUMSILM Top 100 2005-2009: TRACKS
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:15 (nine years ago) link
the idea would be a retrospective of the first 15 years ILM has existed, see what holds up, what doesn't, whats been forgotten, whats been discovered
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:17 (nine years ago) link
Back of the line sez i
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:18 (nine years ago) link
i disagree
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:18 (nine years ago) link
Only if we aren't able to vote for things that placed in the earlier polls.
― how's life, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:19 (nine years ago) link
also every still living poster whos ever posted needs to be contacted and cast a ballot imo
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:22 (nine years ago) link
Only if they didn't vote previously.
― how's life, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:25 (nine years ago) link
Unfair on those who signed up. The all time poll was forced to stop and join quite rightly. Get in the queue System ilx agreed on.
― The Ghost of (strychnine), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:26 (nine years ago) link
might as well do 2000-2020 by then
― Steph def def (Spottie), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:28 (nine years ago) link
eaxactly
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:29 (nine years ago) link
but all time poll is a dumbass idea
i'm with gr80, i feel like were kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel with the artist polls atp. we've done 65 in what, 3 years? and there are another 65 to go on the list. so then we'd have to wait 3 years to do a 2000-2014 poll? that's dumb. summer is a pretty slow time on ilx in general so it would mostly be 4 the hardcore nerds, could easily run concurrently with artist polls
― flopson, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:29 (nine years ago) link
The poll's going to happen in the late summer regardless of what other polls are taking place.
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:31 (nine years ago) link
the 5-year retrospective polls have a precedent that predeceases this thread & queue also
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:32 (nine years ago) link
o shit JF laying down the law
Bottom of the barrel? I totally disagree
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:33 (nine years ago) link
so do i fwiw
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:33 (nine years ago) link
I'm not gonna say artist polls have to stop to accomodate these other bigger more generic polls.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:34 (nine years ago) link
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:31 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
nice B-)
― flopson, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:34 (nine years ago) link
Jf wants to do it late summer = fine whatever. If whoever's up for the next artist poll at that point wants to wait that's up to them. Imo.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:35 (nine years ago) link
At the rate these take place, we'd probably be down the list to the hair metal or CCR poll by August, and an ILM retrospective poll isn't going to take any shine off either of those.
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:36 (nine years ago) link
(also, I plan to vote in both)
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:37 (nine years ago) link
these polls are taking so much longer than they were initially expected to, can't imagine signing up to do something three years hence
― ogmor, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:38 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, we used to be able to get through 2 a month, but somewhere along the line people started extending the voting period (for some reason?) and now the whole process is a slog.
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:39 (nine years ago) link
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:31 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I hope this advance notice gives everyone a chance to get some deep cut joke #1s ready
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:41 (nine years ago) link
The results will be more interesting in 2020 than in 2015 IMO. It's a cool idea for a poll, but I agree it shouldn't jump ahead; EOY really should be the only exception to the queue. We hashed this out last February, and I agree with those saying it would end up being unfair to those who'd waited their turn. If ۩ had taken up the proposal, back then, to join the queue, he'd be justifiably pretty annoyed to find out that another 'general' poll had gotten community approval to skip, where his (I think rightly) was not.
I stand by this:
this thread and its predecessor work on the assumption that too many polls at once is bad for all of them - people can't make ballots, can't find time to participate in the threads, it's a drag. BUT: an unscheduled poll may, based on its topic, be really appealing to lots of people who aren't necessarily following the order-and-timing thread. They are, like the people making ballots in the current Albums poll, stoked to participate. That wouldn't be a problem, except now, the next person to start a poll that *is* on the 'schedule' is put in a bind: Do I start this long-scheduled poll, at the risk that much of ILM will see it as the late-comer that's adding to a pile-on? "Crap, I would totally have made a classic rock ballot, that sounds awesome, but..." Or do I wait, even though a) I've been waiting my turn, b) we just waited out the EOY polls, and c) waiting is in turn holding up every other poll further down in the queue?Unless there's a larger ILM consensus to stick with the ordered-and-timed schedule, then that schedule can always get derailed completely by an unscheduled (I'm trying to avoid saying "rogue") operator.My feeling is that there has been something of an ILM consensus about the validity of the order-and-timing threads in the three years since they've been in use. It's possible of course that I'm overstating that, or reading too much into the success of the polls they've spawned. I do think the results of this system have met with much more public approval than the results of a hypothetical world where all of the last twenty polls had taken place the same month would have! We don't really have a moderation test case though - the rogue Madonna poll was locked, but because it was a swipe at a particular poster, not specifically because the O&T list was "law."
Unless there's a larger ILM consensus to stick with the ordered-and-timed schedule, then that schedule can always get derailed completely by an unscheduled (I'm trying to avoid saying "rogue") operator.
My feeling is that there has been something of an ILM consensus about the validity of the order-and-timing threads in the three years since they've been in use. It's possible of course that I'm overstating that, or reading too much into the success of the polls they've spawned. I do think the results of this system have met with much more public approval than the results of a hypothetical world where all of the last twenty polls had taken place the same month would have! We don't really have a moderation test case though - the rogue Madonna poll was locked, but because it was a swipe at a particular poster, not specifically because the O&T list was "law."
I'd add that I think this applies uniquely to music polls, where ILMers really do want to set aside time to do some listening to refresh and narrow down the ballot - - - I would hope, particularly in the case of a 'retrospective' ballot where there's the chance for people to pull out a track they haven't listened to in a decade and go "Wait...I was excited about this?" That just takes time, and means that competition for 'ballot time' is a real thing in a way that I don't think it would be for movie or book polls or whatever...I mean nobody is actually going to watch a hundred films in a month to try and sort their ballot for Action Movies.
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:42 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, we used to be able to get through 2 a month, but somewhere along the line people started extending the voting period (for some reason?) and now the whole process is a slog.― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 11:39 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 11:39 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
agree, time to get back to the core principles of polling
― Steph def def (Spottie), Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:42 (nine years ago) link
The core, the heart poll
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:44 (nine years ago) link
Polls taking longer could be a fair point (though you don't want it to feel like a brutal assembly line)... and maybe should be a separate conversation around 'reforms.' How long is the average voting period these days?
For me the bigger issue with poll timelines is the really really fast rollouts, which make it impossible to take anything in if you, say, go to work one day. I don't see any reason results can't be spread out over a longer period, while the next ballot starts. The issue is with crowding out people's energy and time for crafting ballots, not for reading and discussing rollouts.
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:44 (nine years ago) link
Like, voting should begin on a Monday with results beginning the following Monday. Then the NEXT Monday voting starts for the next poll. That ain't a hard schedule to stick to imo.
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:45 (nine years ago) link
good post dr. casino, but i still feel like the 5-year retrospective is an established tradition that pre-dates the queue system (which has only been around since 2011)
― gr8080, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:45 (nine years ago) link
I'm all for keeping voting/resuls rollout cycles to 2 wks. Sometimes huger discographies may warrant longer times.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:45 (nine years ago) link
To speed it up even more, voting on the next poll could begin concurrently with the previous poll's rollout.
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 4 February 2015 18:47 (nine years ago) link