Women in Rock: Patti Smith vs Joan Jett

god help me momus otm

Same here.

BTW, everyone on this thread is RONG. Genya Ravan should be the winner here.

And from the 'rank anything you feel like ranking' thread, the ranking of top five reasons why I don't like Patti Smith based on the Please Kill Me book:

1. Penny Arcade: "Then I started to black out, so I left. I was going down in the elevator with Patti. I was losing it, and Patti kept saying to me, 'Do I look like Keith Richards?', 'How does my hair look? Does it look like Keith Richards' ?'"

2. Terry Ork: "Patti would always kiss someone and then look at you to make sure you'd noticed, almost as if she were acting out a sort of nineteen-twenties Paris kind of bohemian. She was very self-conscious about living as if she were onstage and about being a starfucker."

3. Gerard Malanga: "I was a little pissed off at Patti because when the book came out she thanked Anita Pallenberg, who she didn't even know, Bobby Neuwith and somebody else."

"I went out of my way to twist a few arms and get her work known and then she just turns around and thanks Bobby Neuwith....What did she get out of Bobby Neuwith? Maybe she got to meet Dylan. I thought it was a bit of brownnosing."

4. Danny Fields: "She and Robert used to come to Max's [Kansas City] every night, stand in the doorway and stare at all the chic people and wish they would be invited to sit down or to hang out with them."

5. Ed Friedman: "One time she told me, "Allen Ginsberg thought I was a cute boy and tried to pick me up, so I said 'LOOK AT THE TITS ALLEN! NOTICE THE TITS'"

none of this bothers me. I'm certain dylan, reed, madonna, and a whole bunch of other talented people were hyperirritating, starfucking little twats during their early NYC careers.

momus vs. patti smith

xp There's solid and well-known video evidence in Dylan's case.

And as for Madonna... well, really now.

And Lou Reed, from all accounts I have read, is quite a penis.

like, this sized penis:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/transformer7sg.png

It's honestly hard for me to watch Don't Look Back, because that's not at all the Dylan I love. I may in fact be the Dylan I hate. What a cock-choking little shit.

But I guess it doesn't need to be said that if you listen to the records, it's peak Dylan.

none of this bothers me. I'm certain dylan, reed, madonna, and a whole bunch of other talented people were hyperirritating, starfucking little twats during their early NYC careers.

OK - for me with Patti there's something else, beyond these qualities you mention.

It's the incongruity behind the general image of 'poetess', 'visionary', 'role model' , details such as

- 'in 2005, Smith was named a Commander of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres by the French Ministry of Culture.
- 'At the 2008 Rowan Commencement ceremony, Smith received an honorary doctorate degree for her contributions to popular culture'

and comparing this with the content of what she says, such as the whole vacuous content of the Swedish youtube interview above.

Q. What does freedom mean to you?

...I'm outside of society. Rock and roll is my art. I'm a n%gger of the universe, and I'm free because I can leap up and scream, I can put my fist up in the air, I don't give a shit....

And later on towards the end (of part 1):

"We went to the moon - big deal! We went to Mars - big deal! We keep moving and moving and moving. You know Mohammed went through seven heavens? Big deal! I want to see the eight heaven, tenth heaven, thousandth heaven...."

I don't demand my favourite musicians are intellectuals. Many of the best aren't, such as the Ramones (sorry to single you out guys). But where they do aspire to or claim visionary, poetess, revolutionary role model status....

- 'in 2005, Smith was named a Commander of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres by the French Ministry of Culture.
- 'At the 2008 Rowan Commencement ceremony, Smith received an honorary doctorate degree for her contributions to popular culture'

so the fuck what? What does have to do with her? For all I know, I'll receive an honorary degree in Being a Dick on ILX.

Also you're taking that statements in context relative to you, not relative to her time and place and age.

where they do aspire to or claim visionary, poetess, revolutionary role model status....

Your words, every one.

Thank you to this thread for making me listen to Horses again.

I could look at the cover of that record for the entire time it takes to listen to it. Great photo.

You know what? She kind of DOES look a little like Keith Richards.

I can predict what you're going to say when you move on to the cover of Easter:

"You know what? Allen Ginsberg should have noticed those..."

I have no quarrel with the record covers. Some of the best record covers and t-shirts in the business, Ms. Smith.

thank you mister mapplethorpe

Nah, the cover of Horses is great Mapplethorpe, all kind of gender-destruction going on in even the small elements. The delicacy of her hand vs. the iron look on her face. The cover of Easter is kind of all armpit. Good album, perfectly acceptable armpit, but not really my thing.

xpost

yeah, I suppose I can forgive this a lot because its, y'know, the past. CBGB's and all that, if it wasn't filtered through smoky archival footage and GREAT photos it would all seem as daft as it probably would. That said, if it was Horses v. Marquee Moon it would be MM hands down, same coiled, scorched earth take on 60's rock and psychedelia, same vocal inflections nearly, but Television sound tighter, flintier, neurotic, paranoid and exhilarating compared to Patti's spazzed out death rattle. Still, I don't thing people give credit to how varied this album is, sure everyone remembers the feverish beat poetics and garage-revivalism, but what about the atmospheric pop of Kimberly and Free Money or the reggae inflections of Redondo Beach. Like, it covers at lot of bases in the course of eight tracks. Also, it is fun, it's practically a concept album - this shamanistic prophecy where the fire and brimstone is made out of the trappings of teen culture and rock, not exactly mind blowing, but I think its really funny and fun!

I was talking a couple weeks ago to my girlfriend about the Mapplethorpe photos of Patti Smith, and how alarmingly intimate they are. Not that they're NSFW or anything, just... very close to her. They're the kind of pictures a great photographer takes of a lover -- nearly uncomfortable in the volume of expression from both sides of the lens.

But his photos of her are his best photos!

I didn't say otherwise.

I didn't say you did! I just think there's this great chemistry in those photos, but it's an expression of that intimacy and also the kind of showoff performance they're both trying to give, this fake intimacy to avoid the real intimacy that just redirects your gaze back. The idea of being there when some of these photos were taken is kindof scary. They're really intimidating in the way they are both forceful and hollow while being surprisingly sweet for such stark images.

Also, the way the cover of Horses is composed for the exact shape and size of an lp shows what a great painter he might have been.

I think.

Who's to say what's fake intimacy? Just because she's obviously performing for the camera doesn't mean it's not really her.

His photos of *anybody* are the best photos of them...

The idea of being there when some of these photos were taken is kindof scary.

Not if you were one of them, which is the only way those photos could have been taken. The act of observing it from the corner would have changed it. They wouldn't have done it. They both had to have control of the image. Maybe one of the sweetest things about the photos is how they were able to share the control.

xpost, no I didn't really mean it like that, I just kind of feel like there's this great energy that comes from this mutual wariness and curiosity. Like each of them trying to get a closer look while keeping their distance.

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say "control" in this instance, but it sounds like it might be really interesting.

yeah, I meant in a fly in the wall sense.

He's controlling his image, as in the photo, and she's controlling hers, as in "Do I look like Keith Richards?" But they meet halfway. She's not being a model, she's being an equal, quite adamantly.

Anyway it's the best look possible of what must have been a quite unconventional relationship.

I didn't realize until I looked it up just now that this is a Polaroid:

http://www.postmodern.com/~fi/pattipics/images/only.jpg

He Photographed Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)

The idea of being there when some of these photos were taken is kindof scary.

Yeah, ok, you're totally right.

And yeah, Bob Six's quotes confirm exactly my worst suspicions about her.

― I Harbour Multitudes (Bimble), Friday, March 13, 2009 11:52 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that's funny, they (along with that hilariously batshit u-tube clip--thanx dude!) helped me make up my mind - luv ya Joan, but it's gotta be Patti, now and forever.

: D

I don't really know Joan Jett that well...I wonder if a better taking sides would be:

TS - Modern shamans: Patti Smith vs Jim Morrison

(note both photograph well)

oh jesus

romaine vs. iceberg

i love horses.

but i hate easter mostly. rock n roll nigger is so embarrassing.

i got i love rock n' roll when i was a little kid for xmas, so i guess joan was kind of my first "real" rock record
outside of my parents CCR and stones and stuff

it seemed really hard and loud and mysterious and great (i guess i was jeez 7 or 8?)

so it probably blew my mind more than horses did in some ways.

when I was ten or eleven I had the "Because the Night" b/w "Godspeed" single and I liked it so I wrote a fan letter to Patti Smith. Whoever was coordinating stuff for her sent back a multi-page Xeroxed fanclub kinda thing, very D.I.Y. looking, which I loved until I got to the printout of "Rock and Roll Nigger," which, I mean, my case against it was hardly a sophisticated reading ("saying that word means you are a racist") but it offended the shit out of me and I didn't really listen to her again until I got a cassette of Radio Ethiopia when I was 16. Which btw remains one of the great driving tapes of all time.

Patti is great and embarrassing at the same time, because she brought into the whole rock n' roll as liberation fantasy as only an ambitious, working class Jersey outsider could. So to me what makes her great is also what makes her seem like a complete fool. It's both sides of the same romantic rock fantasy. And there's no doubt she's important, while very few musicians quote her style directly, she's just too odd and eccentric, there wouldn't be a Pretenders, Raincoats, or Banshees without Patti. Plus, in that early 70's Mapplethorpe portrait, Patti looks downright vulnerable, so I'd claim just the opposite. What makes the picture so alluring is the absence of any attempt at control. But who knows, I'm not privy, to what type of relationship Patti and Mapplethorpe had. So Patti, yeah...

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Modern shamans: Patti Smith vs Jim Morrison

mods plz rename board thx

I'd never seen that SNL vers. of Gloria before:

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/7731156-1298996642.html

Speaking of Patti and SNL

\m/

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

my mind is so blown

Quick!

Women In Music: Meredith Monk vs. Kathleen Hanna! poll