the kniφe - shaking the habitual

it's fair to criticise it obv - eg with such an emphasis on choreography, why was the dancing so community-project amateur rather than tightly rehearsed - but you have to criticise it on its own terms rather than stubbornly insisting a live show must be a pro forma exercise rigidly adhered to

i'm often alienated by people's wild enthusiasm for festivals etc

same

I mean by all means swallow the bullshit but it's pretty insulting to assume that everyone who doesn't rate the record/performance just doesn't appreciate/understand what they're doing.

(I'm really looking forward to the gig tonight but it's pretty obvious by now that the Knife are fuelled by colossal amounts of bullshit and self-importance).

My view on StH is not that it's particularly challenging or confrontational but that a firm producer would have cut it back to a really powerful 35-minute album. Whereas the record as it stands has plenty of arresting ideas, most of which are duly done to death by over-repetition.

things do fall out of people's frame of understanding xposts to lex. i mean it seems easy to say what dumb rubes all these people are but presumably there are times when everyone mistakes something being entirely out of their wheelhouse for it being irrevocably shit.

self included. you sort of know when you're doing it sometimes and push on regardless.

It’s a bit like what I reluctantly had to conclude after listening to Bish Bosch – yes, Scott, we KNOW you can do this, but you’ve literally done it to death, and is it too much or too bourgeois or decadent to want a record of 3-4 minute songs constructed on a recognisable pattern?

Nope, and neither walker nor anybody else has suggested that it is! Plenty of people offering that, no reason to insist that walker/the knife do.

Likewise, there are dozens of perfectly good Silent Shoutalikes out there you could go and see instead. Scott Walker and the Knife aren't obliged in any way to offer what Marcello is asking.

- and neither are their fans entitled to ask for it either. FWIW STH and Bish Bosch are my favourite albums of the last 6 months or so, so I'm going to disagree on this.

I mean "3-4 minute songs constructed on a recognisable pattern" has kinda been done too, why is Scott walker not allowed to make 3 whole Scott walkery albums?

Yeah, I see it in the round. Thank god someone wants to make challenging, somewhat self-important art. My need for catchy tunes is satisfied elsewhere. The difference between Knife and Scott is that they haven't done this kind of thing before and he has.

Doglatin you're talking about all this stuff like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, "we are redefining definitions and challenging expectations and intimidating those with a conservative view of how things should be" doesn't magically insulate you from people going, "actually I don't have a conservative view, I just don't think what you're doing is successful or worthwhile".

― Matt DC, Thursday, 9 May 2013 11:33 (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If you don't like it, fine - I'm not saying you have to. If you prefer the Knife because they write catchy synth-pop that's cool. I completely understand why, to take an extent example, so many Scott Walker fans left him after hearing Tilt. But given STH's remit, I think these live shows do a lot to back-up their philosophies and statements. It's about challenging conceptions and hegemonies - and how can an artist do that so that it reflects the wider socio-political landscape without digging out an acoustic guitar and singing 'George Bush Sucks A Big One'?

The problem I have with StH and the surrounding interviews is there's a lot of tell don't show - witness our in-depth knowledge of gender theory! - whereas the show is the opposite. The points they're making are palpable in the performance so they don't need to be stated.

Except to all the people who didn't get it / like it.

http://www.splicetoday.com/music/three-cluttered-vacancies

Track review

The difference between Knife and Scott is that they haven't done this kind of thing before and he has.

Y'all forgot about the Darwin opera that fast?

Boom.

Yeah this "change of direction" kind of isn't

But, how much was TIAY picked up on by general Knife fans? I get the idea it wasn't all that much.

STH is much more accessible than TIAY imo

and it does have hooks

The problem I have with StH and the surrounding interviews is there's a lot of tell don't show - witness our in-depth knowledge of gender theory! - whereas the show is the opposite. The points they're making are palpable in the performance so they don't need to be stated.

― Deafening silence (DL), Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:07 (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't really see the problem with this. Part of the reason interviews exist are that they give the artist the chance to explain themselves. The Knife's socio-politics are made most explicit in the interviews and in the fold-out comic book that comes with the album. If you hadn't read the comic or any interviews, you'd be forgiven for missing the point because everything else is down to suggestion and demonstration (save a few lyrical snippets here and there). I'm trying to think of other music that takes this Situationist approach to this extent.

and it does have hooks

― flamenco drop (lex pretend), Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:30 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And it's really not very repetitive at all, as was suggested upthread.

The Knife's socio-politics are made most explicit in the interviews and in the fold-out comic book that comes with the album. If you hadn't read the comic or any interviews, you'd be forgiven for missing the point because everything else is down to suggestion and demonstration (save a few lyrical snippets here and there)

This probably represents a lyrical failure on their part fwiw.

If you don't like it, fine - I'm not saying you have to. If you prefer the Knife because they write catchy synth-pop that's cool. I completely understand why, to take an extent example, so many Scott Walker fans left him after hearing Tilt. But given STH's remit, I think these live shows do a lot to back-up their philosophies and statements. It's about challenging conceptions and hegemonies - and how can an artist do that so that it reflects the wider socio-political landscape without digging out an acoustic guitar and singing 'George Bush Sucks A Big One'?

You aren't actually addressing my point here really.

The point I am making is that there are plenty of criticisms of this album that don't come from the direction of "wah where are the synthpop tunes?" It's perfectly reasonable to argue that the album doesn't succeed at what it is setting out to do, and just saying "it's challenging conceptions" or "you can get catchy synth tunes elsewhere" is handwaving that away somewhat.

xxpost I'm not sure, especially in this case, that there is such a thing as 'lyrical failure'. I'm not sure if that can be defined. Lyrics don't have to be explicit to be effective. I think the Knife's lyrics are extremely effective in their economy.

I just like the record 'cus it gives me the opportunity to sing "A HANDFUL OF ELF PEE!" in a really high falsetto/bad Swedish accent... *shrugs*

The point I am making is that there are plenty of criticisms of this album that don't come from the direction of "wah where are the synthpop tunes?" It's perfectly reasonable to argue that the album doesn't succeed at what it is setting out to do, and just saying "it's challenging conceptions" or "you can get catchy synth tunes elsewhere" is handwaving that away somewhat.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:43 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's all going to be down to a matter of opinion. On a personal level I believe it does achieve its goal. In spades, in fact. I don't think I've heard a record that has made me think quite so much about the kinds of concepts being brought to the table here and as a result I think it's life-changing. I don't use that term lightly either.

no one piece of art can move everyone it touches - that doesn't make it a failure.

The Knife are probably pretty pleased that some people loved the show and others didn't.

^^^^ this is OTM. Polarisation is most likely a part of it. It's a kind of 'get in or get out' approach - it's up to you whether you accept it or not, but either way each reaction is valid.

But going back to Matt DC, I see what you mean about the 'get out of jail free' card. The Emperor's New Clothes argument can be made and I'll give you that. But on a fundamental level, I've rarely felt so gripped by a record and the core messages being expressed through it. It's all down to how one approaches it and one's own point of reference of course. My ongoing and more recent obsessions have included Swans, Scott Walker, Talking Heads and a bunch of others, where historical/political/social references are made in oblique, often confrontational and polarising ways, so to me STH slots into this perfectly. If I were approaching them from another direction I'd probably think it was a load of old noodlewank.

I'm interested in hearing how people would compare this album with PJ Harvey's 'Let England Shake'... the other big political record of this decade. Does it succeed more in making its point? Are the lyrics more effective?

xp "Y'all forgot about the Darwin opera that fast?"

Ha, I'll confess I did. Wiped from my mind.

Are LES's lyrics more effective than StH's? Hmm, let me think for 0.00000001 seconds. Yes. Yes they are.

I don't think anybody but you and the Knife is reading this as one of the decade's big political records.

Yeah, I certainly don't think of the 'political' angle whenever I listen to this record... if anything, I listen to a track like, say, 'Without You My Life Would Be Boring' and the immediate impulse is to dance like a total bellend.

Likewise, there are dozens of perfectly good Silent Shoutalikes out there you could go and see instead. Scott Walker and the Knife aren't obliged in any way to offer what Marcello is asking.

― Pingu Unchained (dog latin), Thursday, 9 May 2013 10:54 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That wasn't what I was saying.

I mean, obviously there's plenty of "headphone music" on Shaking The Habitual, but stuff like '...Boring', 'Full Of Fire' and 'Networking' makes me wanna shake my rump, rather than sit a dark room dwelling on it with cans over my ears.

"big political records"

i don't even really know what that would mean

feel like people are riffing on some vestigial late 60s "when the music changes, the walls of the castle zzzzz" stuff

pop music, at least lyrically, has not really proved a very good vehicle for political transformation even in the "personal is politic" stuff no matter how many rock critics have said otherwise in a way of inflating their own importance

music can be effective political cheerleading. take pete seeger or thomas mapfumo

but whatever the knife are up to it's guaranteed to be ineffectual

sorry for cynicism, but i think people who expect social change from pop music, or even pointed analysis from pop music, are barking up the wrong tree

the album is still really good

you know what's funny

i only just now realized how heavy handed the title of this album was

and how it relates to their whole "project"

it just kind of _sounds_ good so i didn't think about it

see also: music

Nope, and neither walker nor anybody else has suggested that it is! Plenty of people offering that, no reason to insist that walker/the knife do.

― Moldy ★☆☆☆☆ (wins), Thursday, 9 May 2013 10:51 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That wasn't what I was saying either.

xxxposts The album comes packaged with a comic book tirade against capitalism. It was released alongside a manifesto outlining the group's precise philosophy behind the record - one that answers many of the questions raised in this thread. The most prominent lyrics on the album include: "Liberals giving me a nerve pinch" and "Poverty is profitable". How is this not a political record? How does it fail?

pop music, at least lyrically, has not really proved a very good vehicle for political transformation

I could dispute this till the cows come home but this isn't the thread to do it.

I don't know if StH "fails" as a political record but it's not been widely discussed or reviewed as such - not remotely in the same way that LES was. LES was carefully designed to make its point unignorable.

It fails because, by and large, it just feels like having slogans being thrown at you, which doesn't matter when the music is exciting (as it regularly is here) but there's not much to actually connect with. Like a lot of art that's based around soundbytes and/or theory it misses out on the human element, there are more affecting ways to address issues of poverty or privilege, and with more insight as well. The whole thing comes across as kind of gauche.

disagree, sorry Matt.

xxxposts The album comes packaged with a comic book tirade against capitalism. It was released alongside a manifesto outlining the group's precise philosophy behind the record - one that answers many of the questions raised in this thread. The most prominent lyrics on the album include: "Liberals giving me a nerve pinch" and "Poverty is profitable". How is this not a political record? How does it fail?

― Pingu Unchained (dog latin), Thursday, May 9, 2013 7:48 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

b/c what do you expect people to do w/ this sort of sloganeering/propagandizing other than reinforce their own beliefs?

i guess if it turns people on to other interesting authors etc.

xxpost

LES couched the politics in deeply personal and moving observations and stories. This is more like philosophy / critical theory than politics.

Matt, would you make the same critique of Gang of Four?