Bolt the door, Varg is loose!

i figure i'll listen to it after he dies

just being mean, i mean, i hardly expect to outlive anyone

a significant proportion of our population is over 60, I think you'll do fine

well if people are wearing band shirts of a guy whose music they don't really listen to, then ok the issue is purely an Alex In NYC "how dare Shania Twain wear a Ramones shirt!" rant type thing and it clearly means people AREN'T fetishizing a guy who's mainly known for being a nazi murderer and Whiney has no point, yeah, sure.

no, it's more complicated than that - Shania wears a Ramones shirt to a photoshoot. A photoshoot and your social life are two different things.

wearing a "coming soon to church near you" shirt as i read this

For a lot of people a Burzum shirt only means "look how much of a rebel I am, I'm vaguely associating with danger and controversy" - it's like all those christians who own Apple devices just because it's the biblical Forbidden Fruit.

Varg's story is so ubiquitous, though, that I'd hazard a guess that it's probably the very first thing anybody learns about Norwegian black metal. It was the first thing I was told about when a friend first played me "Freezing Moon". It is the anecdote non-NBM people recall when conversation turns to any NBM band. I mean, I'm not a metal guy but several times it has gone "oh, you went to the Mayhem show? Is that the one where somebody got killed? What's the story again?" et cetera, invariably people's curiosity is piqued by that story.

I once stupidly asked a Norwegian promoter over dinner if any visiting bands had asked for tours of the sites where it all went down, and he expressed frustration that Varg's story had become synonymous with a scene that was richer than that. He expressed derision toward Banks Violette's show-- which was beautiful, if you were charitable to its potentially exploitive angle.

Me, I don't give a shit about people wearing Burzum t-shirts because some people might just like to listen to Burzum, where do you draw the line, I listen to Death In June, etc. But I do understand that to some people a Burzum t-shirt has come to signify "Hello, I am reducing an entire genre of music to one anecdote!" and I sympathize.

to me, wearing a Burzum t-shirt means you are saying "on some level, I'm cool with racism"

yeah

how about a cream shirt though? (the most opposition I run into in the outside world, when criticizing bands for their racism, is when I bring up eric clapton)

xp Burzum is a pretty cut-and-dry case, so: sure. Others would say that if you watch a Polanski movie, you're cool with statutory rape. So I basically don't pass judgement, I just hope said Burzum-clad dude knows what's up

smiths shirt, public enemy griff era shirt, etc

polanski isn't a heroic symbol to and author of inspirational tracts for legions of organized, armed child-rapers, though. that's the difference. that's why the comparisons to cream, smiths and public enemy mean nothing.

the problem isn't that varg is a racist dude who said some racist shit, tut-tut, like mel gibson or something. he's an important symbolic figure to organized racist hate groups worldwide. you support him, you support them. you praise his music, you ennoble their cause.

i think you are overstating the idea that there are legions of peeps that find him a symbolic figure of racism - theres plenty of skr3wdr1ver and b0und f0r g10ry shirts out there. also the idea that praising his music ennobles the cause of racism is str8 up incorrect.

generally dudes that are this shit arent looking for oblique at best lyrics that might hint at racism, they are down with the full on race war lyric stuff, which is in ready supply for assholes that want a musical flag-bearer for their bullshit.

(note: i agree with others on here in that i dont recall any actual racist lyricism on the burzum records i have listened to, but hey i dont speak norwegian or norse elf or whatever hobbity thing dude is up to these days, so i am not going to go all in on that supposition).

difference of opinion. i spent a long time working this out for myself, cuz i was quite a fan at one point. i mean, we all know that there are legions of aryan/odinist/whatever-inclined white power assholes that seek inspiration from racist black metal, though mostly in europe, and i've been led to believe that varg is an important figure in those circles (maybe this isn't true, i dunno).

his elevation as an "important artist" threatens too lend legitimacy to such views, imo, and i don't want to be a part of that. i'd rather see him forgotten completely or written off as a pathetic hack. let history recover him from the dustbin if it cares to.

uh, "threatens to lend"

I once stupidly asked a Norwegian promoter over dinner if any visiting bands had asked for tours of the sites where it all went down, and he expressed frustration that Varg's story had become synonymous with a scene that was richer than that.

I played a club where Gaahl was (at the time anyhow) occasionally working the door and made the promoter see if there was any way to get him down there that night but no go :(

to me, wearing a Burzum t-shirt means you are saying "on some level, I'm cool with racism"

To me it says "on some level i'm cool with people assuming that i'm cool with racism". Even if you aren't racist and can personally disassociate yourself from the band's political context, a pretty significant percentage of the people who are familiar with the name are going to take it as a deliberate show of far-right sympathies. Given the potential for that to make people who aren't white uncomfortable, it's kind of good manners to put fanboy support to one side and not wear the fucking things.

I just got my two burzum shirts because the design is cool/gross.

Fair enough. Does the potential for misinterpretation of what wearing the shirt signifies not bother you, though?

also the idea that praising his music ennobles the cause of racism is str8 up incorrect.

You do not understand my position, which is better stated as "I am cool with racists as long as they make awesome music", which necessarily involves tolerating the racism of the person creating the music.

Morrissey is a dick and a jackass and I have not spent a dime on any of his solo music and have purchased all of my Smiths CDs used.

Professor Griff is a dick and a jackass who got kicked out of Public Enemy for his racism, which tells me what I need to know about the band's position in order for me to feel okay with purchasing their stuff (which I've mostly bought used anyway, and only two albums).

I think about this shit a good 80% of my waking life (given who I am and where I grew up, this shouldn't be a big shock/surprise) and I try to avoid supporting artists who espouse racist shit as best as I can. The one blind spot I have is Siouxsie Sioux and it pisses me off to no end that I like that band so much given some of the shit she's said and done. I'm not going to lie and say I don't have some amount of envy for people who aren't in a position where they don't feel they have to obsess over this kind of thing and that that envy doesn't sometimes manifest as resentment, because it does. That doesn't change the fact that my first reaction to people talking about these artists is always and likely always will be "cool, you've made peace with racism".

the "ennobles the cause of racism" thing was more my argument tho

Professor Griff is a dick and a jackass who got kicked out of Public Enemy for his racism, which tells me what I need to know about the band's position in order for me to feel okay with purchasing their stuff (which I've mostly bought used anyway, and only two albums).

also, griff had fuck all to do with making any of PE's music

It seems like everyone feels enormous pressure to take a really definitive, ethically reasoned, intensely thought-out position on Varg/Burzum, in a way that we pressure ourselves to do very rarely in music or in anything else. I'm admittedly a n00b to it all and have just gotten into Burzum in the past few months, but I dunno, I just try and absorb the music and dig it for what it is. I really dig his shit, for the most part. It's singular and creative and homemade-feeling in a great way and just fun to listen to. Sure I'm interested in his backstory, but I try not to get too wrapped up in it. Maybe that's not right of me, but there's a part of me that's like, I just don't want all this baggage nor even the dude himself's fucked-up views and writings getting in the way of my engagement with the music he's made.

I just try and absorb the music and dig it for what it is.

Music and cultural "taste" is backed up with correct arguments and facts, not "digging".

"Correct"?

And I'd argue that taste has VERY little to do with facts--arguments perhaps, but definitely not empirical data.

Banaka!!!

Music exists, there for it is empirical and subject to logical discussion.

And yes, correct arguments. We are correct 99.6789997% of the time, so our word has more weight than an uninformed opinion. Consider this an opportunity to educate yourself.

Banaka, Burzum gets all the "this music is a cut above" love from people, even people who aren't that into black metal. But Mayhem's Ordo ad Chao seems leagues better than literally anything Burzum's ever done. Does the entity known as Banaka take a position on this outstanding Mayhem album?

We reject all guitar-based music.

burzum's music is so fucking corny

So much great metal is corny.

One of these days some AI lab is going to use this place as a Turing test and I hope I'm still here.

burzum's music is so fucking corny

― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:35 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So much great metal is corny.

― Clarke B., Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:41 AM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Perplexing. Do you have synesthesia? We normally would not have associated the aural experience of "heavy metal" music with the taste of maize.

I'm not a Burzum fan but yeah one of the very best things about being a metal geek is not needing to stress about what's corny

This apparent widespread cross-wiring of sensory inputs among listeners of "heavy metal" might prove to be worth researching for our database.

Aero mfotm re Ordo Ad Chao; anybody who says "But I dig Burzum's music" on a good day has taste in opposition to my own

See, that's my point! How many other musicians do we say things like that about, "taste in opposition to my own"? I'd rather listen to Darkthrone 9 times out of 10 anyway, but still.

That's my own "critical" language, public forum etc., I'd be just as charitable to say _________ who I despise utterly.

say

It seems like everyone feels enormous pressure to take a really definitive, ethically reasoned, intensely thought-out position on Varg/Burzum...

― Clarke B., Wednesday, August 15, 2012 6:02 PM (2 hours ago)

well, i'm really the only one doing that. it's part of the brand i'm beta-ing.

Not trying to single you out at all, tend... I just feel, from this thread and others, that a lot of folks like to make it very open and known to what degree they think Varg is a reprehensible guy. Some pals I've talked to IRL do this as well. There's another thread in which j0hn makes a point about the discourse surrounding an artist being a form of support--his point being (if I recall) that we don't just lend an artist "support" via directly purchasing his music or seeing him live, but also through contributing to a public discourse about him and keeping his profile at a certain level. That rings true for me, and part of me feels that harping on how much one finds him morally repugnant is simply stoking that fire from a different angle. I'd much rather just talk about why I think his music's good. I think there's plenty to talk about there, too.

aero's posting in that thread influenced my thinking on this, tbh. that's why i was saying earlier that i'd rather he was simply forgotten, thrown away. it's probably true that a negative stance pays reputation-burnishing attention just as a positive one does, but ideas like these have to be articulated if they're ever to take hold. simply ignoring the judiciously burzum-appreciating status quo only allows it coalesce into canon.

in a way, binning burzum is a gift to posterity. music nerds love to rescue stuff from obscurity, to reappraise the underappreciated. by passively insisting that varg's music is entirely without value, we give them something to rediscover, should they care to...

i'm skeptical of anyone who claims to like burzum and not be at least partially interested in the varg spectacle. also, it's natural human behavior to be titillated by crazy dudes burning down churches. u don't have to approve of an accident to want to rubberneck

How can anyone wear a Ramones shirt now we know about what they were like in person?

You wear the shirt because:
- you agree with democrat Joey
- you agree with republican Johnny
- you believe in a bipartisan utopia
- you support their living on a tour bus and not talking for nine years solution
- you like how the logo looks (potus etc)
- you like the music and you don't give a shit one of them was a (dem/rep)

?

Burzum is a special case, where you just can't separate the band/project from the asshole. Weird.

Hahahahaha

what if you don't like metal but you like the idea of nordic peoples throwing off their oppressors

i suppose there are other tshirts out there for you