― anthony, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
As for Mark's comments, I'd offer the following sort of over- theoretical explanation of what is actually a fairly obvious concept. In aesthetics, I think, there are many instances in which going very far in one direction actually brings you around to its opposite -- my best examples of which are those sprightly, bouncy Cure songs that somehow seem like the logical end-point of gloom and frustration, toeing the inevitable line between "manic" and "depressed." With regard to my comments above, I'd say that Merritt, lyrically, manages to do exactly that w/r/t "emotional connection" and "spontaneity," . . . actually, I have to do something now, so I can't finish this thought. Suffice it to say that a line like "come back from San Francisco / and kiss me, I've quit smoking / I miss doing the wild thing with you" is pretty hard to call stilted or distant or emotionless or something-you-can't-relate to -- this is about as plain and everyday an emotional admission as you could possibly want from a song.
― Nitsuh, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ronan, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I regard Merritt almost as Morrissey once used to regard himself - in terms of finality, endings, and tying things up. The MFs mean a great deal to me, partly because of my investment in "the pop song", which (investment) has only been clarified and intensified (not dissipated) by (eventually) hearing them.
From my POV, 69LS is a Very Major Event In Pop History. Holiday, on the other hand, I think is close to his weakest work ever.
― the pinefox, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
=
>>> I appreciated that particular articulation more than, in the past, I've appreciated a lot of articulations of why people *like* the [MFs'] music.
― absolutely cuckoo, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I can't give a technical explanation right now but Gershwin's "I'll Build a Stairway to Paradise" sounds like a 20s melody to me, "White Rabbit" like a 60s melody, "Bizarre Love Triangle" like an 80s melody. When the Bangles covered "Hazy Shade of Winter," it still sounded like a 60s melody. When Frente did an acoustic version of "BLT" in the 90s it still sounded like an 80s melody. Has to do, I think, with the lengths of the phrases and the intervals chosen.
Lo-fi isn't a problem for me. I don't think 69LS is more lo-fi than my favourite Sonic Youth albums. It's definitely more hi-fi than anything I've done! The guitar line on "Boa Constrictor," which is probably as good as the playing gets on the set, strikes me as competent not exceptional. I definitely think there's more musical substance to the MF when they go electronic. "Ability" was probably a poor choice of terms on my part - "accomplishment" maybe.
I'm assuming that the recent posts defending SM's lyrics are in response to Mark's criticisms and not to mine because my problem wasn't with Merritt trying to be witty and ironic and crafty and distanced. I was in fact looking for witty, well-crafted pop songwriting. I think I just generally find that too often they offer romantic tropes, stock situations, and non-reflexive (is that a real term?) self-pity. Or something like that. I like that the Smiths could create characters with whom you could empathize but also realize their (and your) failings and errors - I like my self-pity with a level of self-consciousness.
I hate the Cure's lyrics for their romantic melodrama.
(Rock ballads that I like I think I usually like despite the lyrics.) "Come back from San Fransisco/And kiss me I've quit smoking" was one of the best moments on the set I thought -- it was too bad it had to be followed by "I miss doing the wild thing with you."
― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
.. "My Heart's Runnin' Round Like a Chicken With Its Head Cut Off" - that's the tune I can't shake.
They're great live - but 69LS didn't do much for me. Not that I thought it was drivel - I just never got into it like Holiday or Get Lost.
― Dave225, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Sonically I enjoy them as well. Summer Lies and Busby Berkly Dreams are beautiful songs, even without words.
― Jeff, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ian, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
i rather like the Magnetic Fields now. I still only own that one album. I may have listened to the whole album, every song back to back, once. I don't care whther it's sincere or clever. It has some catchy little tunes for me, and i like the fact that it's a jumbled mess, like a big box full of broken toys.
i rather like the Eggers comparison, even though i don't want to get into the cleverness for its own sake mode, as i may have managed to avoid thinking of the Magnetic Fields critically altogether, and been healthier for it in this specific case.
― badger, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
It might be me, but from what I can tell from a lot of lines being quoted here in Merritt's defense, *they're* pretty melodramatic as well. In which case, what is more important, the song or how it is sung? ;-)
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
But is that enough reason to care? I realize I'm having (self-amused) fun by bringing up these points, but still, I seem to have moved from a point last year where I believed people really did care about the MFs to now, where I'm actually not so sure about that anymore. I don't doubt anyone's sincerity here, I should note, but there's something odd about this debate that seems to be focusing less about Merritt and his work and more about how to read him. And surely the answer to that question is -- however the hell you want to.
But what I was about to post was this:
Actually, the more I think about it, part of the thrill of his material is that it essentially dares you to reject his texts, dares you to assume he's kidding -- much of the enjoyment I take from his lyrics lies in the fact that his authorial stance allows him to lay out lines of such straightforward clarity that they seem almost taboo if interpreted as "sincerity." (The taboo, of course, being the long-running post-Elvis "Thou shalt not employ formal rhetorical devices in popular music.") I'm not levelling this charge at anyone here, but I feel as if I've met quite a few people -- Mag Fields fans and haters alike -- whose opinions on Merritt are solely based on their inability to take certain tropes seriously: they either find him wonderfully funny/clever or insufferably funny/clever because it's not occurred to them that his more surprising metaphors may not be intended as humor. But I'm going to resign from this thread and take that thought home to work on it some more, because I feel like there's something to it -- some sort of rebellion-through-structure thing -- that is key to my appreciation of a whole lot of different bits of music.
As a specific response to the standard lyrical criticisms, I'd submit 69 Love Songs' "Meaningless," one of the finest fuck-you songs I've heard in years. But then again, this thread is tending toward a "Lyrical Aspects of 69 Love Songs" classic or dud rather than an actual Mag Fields classic or dud, so . . . let's talk about old stuff.
*adopts Bugs Bunny voice* Ain't I a STINKER? (As opposed to a Sinker, natch.)
some sort of rebellion-through-structure thing
"Hey hey, you think it's a puncture/Turning rebellion into structure."
*pause*
Er, anyway. A rebellion through structure? *considers* ...I'm leery of such approaches, or rather the way of phrasing that, seems to be the eternal problem of exchanging one ideology for another and back again.
Among some folks I know, that is precisely the answer. ;-) But that's your point as well, natch. I guess anything could be rebellion, but that implies there's something to rebel *against* -- and with me and my r.s. nature, I'd argue that's chasing at shadows. I wouldn't so much see it as rebelling against something as reacting to it -- the idea of rebelling being a self-contained construct.
Musician to self: "Lo! I respond to the tyranny of presumed unfettered emotion!"
Outside viewpoint: "A tyranny existed?"
Maybe i'll post something longer tomorrow. i'm lost for words, all you dud-sayers.
― Alan at home, Tuesday, 30 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
We're evil that way. Death to consensus! ;-)
It might be me, but from what I can tell from a lot of lines being quoted here in Merritt's defense, *they're* pretty melodramatic as well.
Well, yeah, that was sort of my point. That once you get past the concept and the cleverness it's the same old same old.
So your article rebelling against the 'indie consensus' on Merritt was what, exactly? ;)
― Tom, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
P.S. Mark, the third disc is almost certainly the weakest.
P.P.S. I can't recommend Merritt's Future Bible Heroes side-project highly enough; I actually like their album Memories Of Love as much as 69 Love Songs and more than any of the other MF albums.
― Tim, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I was briefly elated to see all the attention that 69 got, but it soon became apparent that the gushing press was just pissing people off. This is why i rarely read music press any more. listen to the bloody music. mp3 and internet wins.
I couldn't get past disc 1 of 69 for ages because it was so wonderful. then weeks later i tried the second disc -- also wonderful. third disc turned out to be a bit wobbly. (seems to be the conventional view too, huh?)
I'm still looking forward to the first time i hear "Take Ecstasy With Me" in a club. stomping! (despite sounding a bit like a raved-up z-cars theme tune)
― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Well I prefer it to the second one... Come on, it has 'Meaningless' (which tears me up ever time, or does it put me into a state of 'no one touch me' catatonia? I forget which), 'Yeah! Oh Yeah!' (melodrama par excellence - the best duet of its kind since the Specials' 'I Can't Stand It') and 'Queen of the Savages' (ridiculous, possibly offensive lyric, but I can't help loving it. I think it's all about the TUNE, shock horror!). Yeah, it's bollocks that lyrics are Merritt's only gift. Magnetic Fields melodies reverb around my head all the time.
― Nick, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― m jemmeson, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Disc 3 is the worst, yes. Bringing up a few good tracks (they're all good, in their ways) doesn't affect that judgment.
>>> Merritt taking utterly seriously what others would assume to be a joke. On 69 Love Songs the magic within the songs is not lyrical, but rather the mediation between the song as an intensely formal structure and equally intense, heartfelt performances of those songs.
I *kind* of agree with all this... but the trouble is the rhetoric of inversion: the MFs are *either* ironic *or* heartfelt. In fact, I think, they are sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both or undecidable, sometimes You, The Listener, Decide - ie;. we don't need an all-embracing description of the tone of *every* MFs moment, cos they're not all the same.
>>> Songs like "Book Of Love" or "Papa Was A Rodeo" would be completely naff in the hands of anyone else, but Merritt and his helpers invest them with such feeling that they transcend their own sense of craft. It's the transcendance that makes it such an emotionally affecting album - it often feels like the Fields are *covering* the songs as opposed to merely performing them, reimagining them as something grander than what they were on the page and layering them with new, almost unbearably personal resonances (the rostered vocalist policy doesn't hurt in this regard).
Sure, this covers idea is great, very suggestive. But there are still two different kind of 'sincerity' at work in your argument: 1) = 'emotionally sincere about the lyrics, etc'; 2) 'sincere craftsmanship - taking "The Song" very seriously - being serious (but also funny) about an investigation of pop history'. They're both fine, and both present at different times, but interestingly different (and I hadn't quite identified 2) until you brought it up).
I'm looking for a concluding thought (for me, not for everyone else, of course) on this, trying to sum it up... I think it's that 69LS suggests that there are many ways to one's heart - through the head, through the feet; through musical texture, through lyrical subtlety; through complexity and wryness, but also through simplicity amidst that ('I love it when you give me things'). And those many ways are (possibly) only multiplied by the many things that many listeners can do with the songs. The record is so big that it doesn't need to be about intellect *or* emotion - it can be about both at different times, and about their interrelations and occasional identity.
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
*chuckle* Something I probably wouldn't write now. Individual statements that say or imply musical truth is nonexistent seem much more to my taste at present...
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Upon reflection, what I find most interesting of all was that most of the press seemed to salute him for his influences rather than his results. I mean, it's great that he obviously likes a lot of different music, that's completely up my street, but there's no automatic corollary saying that therefore his music must by virtue of that succeed. This wasn't a universal approach by writers, of course, but I saw it more than once, and struck me as a strange sort of wish- fulfillment.
I always liked "Meaningless" as one of the best songs on the set but it never struck me as more than cruelly funny.
Re old stuff: Get Lost is the only SM I don't feel a little embarrassed about now. Even at my most 69LS-infatuated I always preferred it. I still don't ever play it though. Nice tunes and arrangements. The first two songs are especially good. The lyrics are simpler and don't dominate the music. I never really liked Charm of the Highway Strip that much other than "Born On a Train."
It might just be that the MF are dealing in statements I don't really need to hear at the moment, as Sterling feels. In retrospect, it seems a little strange that I would have made that big a deal over what is essentially a retro-80s project.
― sundar subramanian, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Oh, you should hear Stevie T sing it. People still weep at the memory.
Good thread, this.
― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
It wasn't just the press - I noticed a lot of my friends and acquaintances doing it (and by "a lot" I mean the 5 people I know who like Stephin Merrit). It was like, "Oh, you should like it, he takes influences from this this and this!" And I'm like, yes, well, Limp Bizkit take influences from this this and this that are all good but I think that Limp Bizkit are shit, why is this different? They never had much of an answer besides "But he's so clever!" which isn't an answer at all.
― Ally, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sean, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
1. Merritt
2. Dudley Klute
3. Shirley Simms
5. Claudia Gonson
4. LD Beghtol
Favorite of alltime would be Susan Amway.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
i forgot this song was at the end of disc 2 today, and it made me feel more messed up than i thought that i was.
I still very much enjoy the album but noticed that many of the ones that seemed more enjoyable today were novelty songs, and wondered if this is a less chemically tolerant, fragile Ween for a moment, despite all of the writing about craftsmanship and history.
― badger, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
$70 Can. on sale seems like he was screwed, though. Considering when I'm in Ottawa and I shop at Organised Sound (a store Sundar should be familiar with, as they sell his tape), Merge CDs are $19.99 each, he should've been able to walk off with them for individually for $60 (and usually bundled packs are slightly cheaper than individual releases in general).
― Vic Funk, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Wheeler, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
It's the fact that most of MF's witticisms are self-puncturing that makes them so insightful, so persuasive, so raw and personal; as someone who tends to overanalyse myself to extremes, I can sympathise with Merritt's refusal to divorce his intellect from his emotion - is "World Music" a meta-joke or plain heartbreaking? It's both, and all the better for being so.
I know what you mean, Otis - anyone who's ever been in the same room as me when I've played Magnetic Fields has used it as an excuse to complain about my music tastes ("You've got so many cds - how none of them are any good?").
Wheeler, maybe if you stopped listening to the MFs, you wouldn't be a moron anymore. Did you ever think about that?
well i mean from the studio versions, they very rarely had live drums on record in the first place in the 90s
― ufo, Wednesday, 23 February 2022 16:55 (two years ago) link
oh my god
― imago, Wednesday, 23 February 2022 17:08 (two years ago) link
I wasn't ready for how well my Realism comments paved the way for Love At The Bottom Of The Sea
he is unchained. unburdened. free
this is GLORIOUS omg
yep, on second listen I think I can firmly establish my great TMF trilogy: Charm, Holiday, Sea
I do not expect to be liked, nor understood, but there it is
― imago, Wednesday, 23 February 2022 17:57 (two years ago) link
Neurodivergent songwriters
????
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 24 February 2022 17:43 (two years ago) link
He has said that he may be on the autism spectrum.[29][30]
― imago, Thursday, 24 February 2022 17:46 (two years ago) link
have slightly calmed down re: LATBOTS - it isn't as good as the prime stuff, but I still find it a strikingly effective expression of creative freedom and full of little sonic delights
― imago, Thursday, 24 February 2022 17:47 (two years ago) link
Oh I didn't know that about Merritt
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 24 February 2022 17:50 (two years ago) link
good post that explains my great liking for Holiday - it isn't 'well recorded' or expensive-sounding (69LS feels MUCH more expensive) but it is a bedroom synth-layering masterpieceif anything, The Charm... has an even more astonishing sound-world, with a sort of bizarro alt-country thrown in amongst the twinkling, meshing anti-popOTM, those are def my two favorite MF records for similar reasons, followed closely by Distortion, which is I think a perfect execution of its concept (Stephin Merritt songs + the sonic palette of Psychocandy)
― J. Sam, Thursday, 24 February 2022 18:13 (two years ago) link
Lots of people say this - about themselves and others.
It may be wise to be cautious and circumspect in applying these terms to people when full diagnoses are not available.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 24 February 2022 19:22 (two years ago) link
idk, cinical diagnostic criteria for most spectrum disorders were not available until very recently, so lots of adults who showed obvious spectrum traits as children went undiagnosed. if there are adults who believe they fit the profile & it helps explain challenges they have faced or continue to face & self-identify as being on the spectrum, but have little incentive to seek a formal diagnosis, then there's no need to be overly circumspect in applying these terms imo.
― The 25 Best Songs Ever Ranked In Order (Deflatormouse), Friday, 25 February 2022 00:05 (two years ago) link
Finding 50 Song Memoir to be grand fun
― imago, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 19:37 (two years ago) link
Yeah, I kind of love it now. Particularly the stretch from Hustle 76 to Dreaming in Tetris, which is almost 100% solid, but there some winners on either side of that too.
― Vaguely Threatening CAPTCHAs, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 20:29 (two years ago) link
"'69: Judy Garland" is great; I play it for my Gay Life & Culture class when I cover Stonewall.
― Les hommes de bonbons (cryptosicko), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 20:36 (two years ago) link
Had a blast seeing them in Amsterdam yesterday. Claudia isn't there for this tour and that did feel like a gap on stage but the instrumentation was excellent nevertheless. They played 30 songs in one and a half hour (obviously including several short songs from Quickies, but most of their songs aren't long anyway), I was pleasantly surprised with some excellent picks from Holiday: Desert Island, The Flowers She Sent & The Flowers She Said She Sent; Take Ecstasy With Me - so good!
― Valentijn, Monday, 12 September 2022 11:26 (one year ago) link
Someone posted their first show from 1990 recently (as well as another from 1990 on their channel)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn8OrCNapZQ
― city worker, Friday, 30 September 2022 12:34 (one year ago) link
Wow, thanks!! Other early live TMF videos from that same uploader:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRRPNhkKo4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0hcyZ0ep0w
And there's even a little TMF after this Swirlies show (the link brings you right to the TMF stuff):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-N73NEMlAc
So in addition to Stephin, Claudia and Sam, I think that's Johny Blood on tuba (only in the "first show" video), Nell Beram on guitar, and Phylene Amuso on bass.
― ernestp, Saturday, 1 October 2022 03:25 (one year ago) link
Ah that last video (Swirlies) should've started at 38:58 - so just go to that time for the TMF content.
― ernestp, Saturday, 1 October 2022 03:27 (one year ago) link
!!!
EXCITING NEWS! In celebration of the 25th anniversary of 69 Love Songs, we'll be doing a limited run of shows next year in which we will perform all 69 songs in order over 2-night residencies in March-April 2024. Sign up for the presale now: https://t.co/IDdshJvOVQ pic.twitter.com/yFBO1n99v0— The Magnetic Fields (@TheMagFields) June 22, 2023
― ludicrously capacious bag (voodoo chili), Thursday, 22 June 2023 17:49 (eleven months ago) link
Sadly no LD Beghtol, who died in 2020. Did they ever say what happened, Covid or something else?
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Friday, 23 June 2023 00:25 (eleven months ago) link
Never saw cause of death spelled out
https://www.chickfactor.com/rip-ld-beghtol-splendid-butterfly/
― curmudgeon, Friday, 23 June 2023 15:39 (eleven months ago) link