Hommophobia inna dancehall style...

'factors' don't 'affect change'. they are just factors. you have indeed spent a long time outlining them, and most of us have taken them on board. we understand. this brings us no closer to actually resolving the issue at hand! Dave, I would be happy if for once you actually put forward a workable, non-condescending solution based on your superior knowledge &c. Obviously I don't think you are a homophobe, but it's hard not to suspect that you don't care that much about it as it doesn't affect you.

this post comes across as way too patronising/aggressive so sorry - am drunk.

You obviously don't think "tolerance and understanding" includes refraining from arguing with bigots (as you did so well upthread). From what you've said, I gather you've argued with Jamaican homophobes yourself.

As a gay man I feel a strong sense of solidarity with gay men in Jamaica for the horribly menaced and repressed lives they must lead. I'm "inside" a scene in that way. The "culturial imperialism" argument implies that we should do nothing to stop one oppressed group oppressing and even more oppressed subset; I find that argument specious. Would you apply the same argument to female gential mutilation, the stoning of adultresses, honour killings, institutional racism etc.? Should the West really have nothing to say on these issues and apply no pressure on the countries where they're practised on grounds of cultural imperialism? Amnesty International has recently weighed in forcefully over the issue of homophobia in Jamaica. Do you think it shouldn't have?

cute

and read what i said. i said use of those terms was never advisable. but mate, gay or not, you're in a very privileged position where you can do what you like with impunity. this is not the case in many other places, as you are no doubt aware. the only thing is that handwringing, wailing and telling people what to think exactly when you want them to think it will not change matters any too quick. taking the time to step outside your own life and read and understand some of the things i'm saying will help a lot more. tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding and even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time. economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life (and that is a bloody good thing, more power to you), but that isn't the case in many other places. as economic security effectively buys liberalism and freedom (look at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas) i'd contend that there's a lot more to be got right before you can expect everyone to be as accepting and pluralistic as you demand. call me for whatever you like and throw all the specious accusations around that you feel you need to, but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not.

wrong. you're falling into a trap here. sizzla was denied a visa late last year to which his response was roughly: "i don't care. i can do just fine in jamaica, thanks. i don't need europe or america." then proceeded to say a bunch of really offensive things about gay people (which i feel i *have* to say i abhor, rather than it just being taken as read, as it should be) and that this had only made his belief stronger.

You sidestepped my question. Nasty things happen in fucked-up countries. But do you really think that Western gov'ts and NGOs should not seek to apply any outside pressure to change things like female genital mutilation or honour killings? (Or, for that matter, incitement to homophobic lynching?) You put non-interference above responsibility towards victims?

yeah, all this stuff is dealt with in the opening post (I've only just re-read the thread): in a way that's even more disturbing for the reasons cybele pointed out back then.

Dave, do you know how Ce'cile's comments about the whole issue were received in Jamaica/the dancehall community? she was pretty explicit about her disdain for it. I think this might be one workable solution - to focus on the artists who aren't prepared to endorse homophobia. I suspect many of the more high profile female MCs would be more willing than their male counterparts to take some sort of stand - Tanya Stephens, Lady Saw, Ms Thing et al - as well as people like Sean Paul who have found massive overseas success. (Sean Paul and Ce'cile are from fairly well-to-do families, aren't they? I don't know how pro-gay statements from them would come across.)

anyway yes: if enough dancehall stars are willing to begin the dialogue from within there might be something there. I'm kind of surprised Ce'cile's statement didn't lead to something more though.

miles, i didn't say it was worse. will people ditch the hyperbole for just one second and concentrate on what i'm saying. i'm saying homophobia is wrong, flat out totally fucking indefensible, but there are ways and means of making these changes and dictating to people from on high is not one of them and will only antagonise.

it's really a cse of enforcing the positive and backing it for all we're worth now.

I'd definitely agree with this. on a not unrelated note, did the Ce'cile album ever come out properly? I've spent the last six months or so intermittently looking for it but I can't even find it in specialist shops.

http://villagevoice.com/music/0507,oumano,61118,22.html

peace

it is morally reprehensible that beenie man and T.O.K. actively espouse anti-gay sentiments, and promote violence against gays and lesbians in their music.

it's also pretty terrible that some people think HIV/AIDS is something that only affects gay people.

*sigh*

And I'm not even a Christian...

PS, was that a Dread Zepplin reference?

MURDER INNA DANCEHALL - Homophobia In Dancehall Music

http://www.soulrebels.org/dancehall.htm

Productions the label behind the “18 Karat Reggae” CD series is holding the first ever Straight Pride Parade in Brooklyn, New York on August 31, 2008. The parade will take place on Eastern Parkway along the same route as the annual Caribbean labor day parade.

New reggae / dancehall sensation Jango Fresh said, “the Straight pride parade is a great idea because when a song like “Hit them hard” by my label mate Stapler can be banned just because it stresses the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.

The Straight Pride Parade is a chance for Heterosexuals to gather together and proudly embrace their sexuality. The Parade will also allow reggae and dancehall fans who are in New York City for the Labor Day celebrations to get together and celebrate reggae, dancehall and family in love and unity. Adults are encouraged to bring their children along for the celebrations, as the event will be family oriented.

The president of TCOOO said he hopes the event will unify the reggae community who has seen many reggae events cancelled recently not only in the United States but all over Europe and the Caribbean. “I sat quietly and watched as they cancelled artists like Buju Banton, Sizzla Kalonji and Capleton” he said, “but when the gay community went after TCOOO artists like Vineyard the Rebel Priest, Stapler and Jango Fresh we decided that we must make a show of strength.”

Lyrics from Hit Them Hard:

Jah Jah gonna hit them hard
All the men who visit men backyard
Leaving all the women to starve
One thunder ball and all of them pause
Hand in hand with my lady
Hug her and kiss her cause she carried my baby
But some boys moving shady

ok part of me just died a little.

Leaving all the women to starve

^^sure about that?

Sigh.

I prefer the lyrics to "Master Blaster."

http://nymag.com/daily/food/2008/07/jamaican_women_take_umbrage_with_bourdain.html

:( this parade is happening two blocks from my house

One thunder ball

?

. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.
. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.
. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.

When I get past the fact that this isn't a satire I am going to throw up. I mean, it's a Straight-Pride Parade for God's sake.

I should go just for fun

http://www.jamaica-star.com/thestar/20080409/ent/ent1.html

http://www.ammocity.com/artman/uploads/beeniepride2.jpghttp://santacruz.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/9/prideposters20042--mfit-w200-s1.jpg

First Ave. cancels Buju Banton show, ugh

http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/off-the-record/minneapoliss-first-avenue-canc/

For the record, it is the only song he ever made on the subject - and he does not perform it today.

on the contrary its pretty much a staple of his live show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Eg4Dd9NY4

gets his mic cut off at carifest as the band starts to play it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoNMNmvcVpA

Wish that Batty Boy had something to do with vampires.

"read what i said. i said use of those terms was never advisable. but mate, gay or not, you're in a very privileged position where you can do what you like with impunity. this is not the case in many other places, as you are no doubt aware. the only thing is that handwringing, wailing and telling people what to think exactly when you want them to think it will not change matters any too quick. taking the time to step outside your own life and read and understand some of the things i'm saying will help a lot more. tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding and even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time. economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life (and that is a bloody good thing, more power to you), but that isn't the case in many other places. as economic security effectively buys liberalism and freedom (look at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas) i'd contend that there's a lot more to be got right before you can expect everyone to be as accepting and pluralistic as you demand. call me for whatever you like and throw all the specious accusations around that you feel you need to, but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not."

― stelfox, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 6:43 AM (4 years ago) Bookmark

This thread should have pretty much been locked after this. I don't even like dancehall, but my parents are from the Caribbean, although not Jamaica, and unfortunately homophobia is a deeply ingrained part of the culture in many parts of it. I personally find it reprehensible, but if anyone thinks that a bunch of middle class (mostly white) people from rich countries complaining about it is going to change anything, then please let me disabuse you of that notion right now. That would be about as productive as telling all of the gunmen in Kingston to put down their weapons and hug it out. Ignorance, fear, hate and violence all come from somewhere, and until the core issues that underlie these attitudes and patterns of behaviour are dealt with, not much is going to change.

That's almost fair, until you realize two things: That the global nature of music means that criticism is also global, and that the options aren't simply to try to shift the acceptability of homophobia through complaining from a position or letting it go and working on addressing the underlying social problems—that's a false dichotomy.

And that's before dealing with the omni-present sub-issues that condemnation and complaint can help strengthen domestic opposition to homophobia (especially by knocking down easier targets), and the constant rebuttal that a significant plurality of artists making great music are tremendous assholes, and sometimes homophobia (or sexism or racism) is part of engaging with them through their art.

i agree with stelfox's general point too, but aren't these cancellations less of a "jamaica must change its evil ways" proclamation and more of a "keep your ignorance off our land" type thing? and isn't that their right?