― dave q (listerine), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link
CLASSIC!!!!!
haha btw the first tenet of the petition says "We are fans and supporters of reggae, dancehall and Jamaican music in all its forms."
Aside from the homophobic ones, I presume.
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:57 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 18:03 (nineteen years ago) link
Even with regards Jamaica itself, how far would your moral relativism take you, stelfox? What would you be willing to accept in its name? Reductio ad absurdam: let's say the murder of gay men became legal, would you still want to lay off?
― damien, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 18:06 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stevem On X (blueski), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 18:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jena (JenaP), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 21:27 (nineteen years ago) link
is the prevalence of knee-jerk liberalism toward jamaican (especially dancehall) homophobia almost as problematic as the homophobia itself?
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:18 (nineteen years ago) link
'factors' don't 'affect change'. they are just factors. you have indeed spent a long time outlining them, and most of us have taken them on board. we understand. this brings us no closer to actually resolving the issue at hand! Dave, I would be happy if for once you actually put forward a workable, non-condescending solution based on your superior knowledge &c. Obviously I don't think you are a homophobe, but it's hard not to suspect that you don't care that much about it as it doesn't affect you.
this post comes across as way too patronising/aggressive so sorry - am drunk.
― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:22 (nineteen years ago) link
You obviously don't think "tolerance and understanding" includes refraining from arguing with bigots (as you did so well upthread). From what you've said, I gather you've argued with Jamaican homophobes yourself.
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 10:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 10:49 (nineteen years ago) link
As a gay man I feel a strong sense of solidarity with gay men in Jamaica for the horribly menaced and repressed lives they must lead. I'm "inside" a scene in that way. The "culturial imperialism" argument implies that we should do nothing to stop one oppressed group oppressing and even more oppressed subset; I find that argument specious. Would you apply the same argument to female gential mutilation, the stoning of adultresses, honour killings, institutional racism etc.? Should the West really have nothing to say on these issues and apply no pressure on the countries where they're practised on grounds of cultural imperialism? Amnesty International has recently weighed in forcefully over the issue of homophobia in Jamaica. Do you think it shouldn't have?
― grb, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 11:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Wednesday, 2 February 2005 11:37 (nineteen years ago) link
cute
and read what i said. i said use of those terms was never advisable. but mate, gay or not, you're in a very privileged position where you can do what you like with impunity. this is not the case in many other places, as you are no doubt aware. the only thing is that handwringing, wailing and telling people what to think exactly when you want them to think it will not change matters any too quick. taking the time to step outside your own life and read and understand some of the things i'm saying will help a lot more. tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding and even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time. economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life (and that is a bloody good thing, more power to you), but that isn't the case in many other places. as economic security effectively buys liberalism and freedom (look at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas) i'd contend that there's a lot more to be got right before you can expect everyone to be as accepting and pluralistic as you demand. call me for whatever you like and throw all the specious accusations around that you feel you need to, but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not.
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 11:43 (nineteen years ago) link
wrong. you're falling into a trap here. sizzla was denied a visa late last year to which his response was roughly: "i don't care. i can do just fine in jamaica, thanks. i don't need europe or america." then proceeded to say a bunch of really offensive things about gay people (which i feel i *have* to say i abhor, rather than it just being taken as read, as it should be) and that this had only made his belief stronger.
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 11:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:03 (nineteen years ago) link
You sidestepped my question. Nasty things happen in fucked-up countries. But do you really think that Western gov'ts and NGOs should not seek to apply any outside pressure to change things like female genital mutilation or honour killings? (Or, for that matter, incitement to homophobic lynching?) You put non-interference above responsibility towards victims?
― grb, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:16 (nineteen years ago) link
yeah, all this stuff is dealt with in the opening post (I've only just re-read the thread): in a way that's even more disturbing for the reasons cybele pointed out back then.
Dave, do you know how Ce'cile's comments about the whole issue were received in Jamaica/the dancehall community? she was pretty explicit about her disdain for it. I think this might be one workable solution - to focus on the artists who aren't prepared to endorse homophobia. I suspect many of the more high profile female MCs would be more willing than their male counterparts to take some sort of stand - Tanya Stephens, Lady Saw, Ms Thing et al - as well as people like Sean Paul who have found massive overseas success. (Sean Paul and Ce'cile are from fairly well-to-do families, aren't they? I don't know how pro-gay statements from them would come across.)
anyway yes: if enough dancehall stars are willing to begin the dialogue from within there might be something there. I'm kind of surprised Ce'cile's statement didn't lead to something more though.
― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Miles Finch, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:24 (nineteen years ago) link
miles, i didn't say it was worse. will people ditch the hyperbole for just one second and concentrate on what i'm saying. i'm saying homophobia is wrong, flat out totally fucking indefensible, but there are ways and means of making these changes and dictating to people from on high is not one of them and will only antagonise.
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:30 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:52 (nineteen years ago) link
it's really a cse of enforcing the positive and backing it for all we're worth now.
I'd definitely agree with this. on a not unrelated note, did the Ce'cile album ever come out properly? I've spent the last six months or so intermittently looking for it but I can't even find it in specialist shops.
― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 2 February 2005 12:55 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 13:05 (nineteen years ago) link
http://villagevoice.com/music/0507,oumano,61118,22.html
― Pete Scholtes, Thursday, 17 February 2005 04:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― , Sunday, 7 August 2005 16:27 (eighteen years ago) link
― deej.., Sunday, 7 August 2005 16:33 (eighteen years ago) link
peace
― one human family, Thursday, 19 January 2006 02:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Thursday, 19 January 2006 02:44 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 19 January 2006 03:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 19 January 2006 03:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 13 July 2006 04:37 (seventeen years ago) link
it is morally reprehensible that beenie man and T.O.K. actively espouse anti-gay sentiments, and promote violence against gays and lesbians in their music.
it's also pretty terrible that some people think HIV/AIDS is something that only affects gay people.
*sigh*
― Emily B (Emily B), Thursday, 13 July 2006 05:04 (seventeen years ago) link
And I'm not even a Christian...
PS, was that a Dread Zepplin reference?
― The GZeus (The GZeus), Thursday, 13 July 2006 16:14 (seventeen years ago) link
MURDER INNA DANCEHALL - Homophobia In Dancehall Music
http://www.soulrebels.org/dancehall.htm
― Manuel Sarrazin (ziggy99), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 04:47 (seventeen years ago) link
― jaxon (jaxon), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 05:37 (seventeen years ago) link
Productions the label behind the “18 Karat Reggae” CD series is holding the first ever Straight Pride Parade in Brooklyn, New York on August 31, 2008. The parade will take place on Eastern Parkway along the same route as the annual Caribbean labor day parade.
New reggae / dancehall sensation Jango Fresh said, “the Straight pride parade is a great idea because when a song like “Hit them hard” by my label mate Stapler can be banned just because it stresses the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.
The Straight Pride Parade is a chance for Heterosexuals to gather together and proudly embrace their sexuality. The Parade will also allow reggae and dancehall fans who are in New York City for the Labor Day celebrations to get together and celebrate reggae, dancehall and family in love and unity. Adults are encouraged to bring their children along for the celebrations, as the event will be family oriented.
The president of TCOOO said he hopes the event will unify the reggae community who has seen many reggae events cancelled recently not only in the United States but all over Europe and the Caribbean. “I sat quietly and watched as they cancelled artists like Buju Banton, Sizzla Kalonji and Capleton” he said, “but when the gay community went after TCOOO artists like Vineyard the Rebel Priest, Stapler and Jango Fresh we decided that we must make a show of strength.”
Lyrics from Hit Them Hard:
Jah Jah gonna hit them hard All the men who visit men backyard Leaving all the women to starve One thunder ball and all of them pause Hand in hand with my lady Hug her and kiss her cause she carried my baby But some boys moving shady
― and what, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 17:02 (fifteen years ago) link
ok part of me just died a little.
Leaving all the women to starve
^^sure about that?
― RabiesAngentleman, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 17:06 (fifteen years ago) link
Sigh.
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 17:17 (fifteen years ago) link
I prefer the lyrics to "Master Blaster."
― Eric H., Wednesday, 9 July 2008 17:36 (fifteen years ago) link
http://nymag.com/daily/food/2008/07/jamaican_women_take_umbrage_with_bourdain.html
― Steve Shasta, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 18:15 (fifteen years ago) link
:( this parade is happening two blocks from my house
― bell_labs, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 18:23 (fifteen years ago) link
One thunder ball
?
― J0rdan S., Wednesday, 9 July 2008 18:26 (fifteen years ago) link
. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up. . . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up. . . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.
― mehlt, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 19:26 (fifteen years ago) link
When I get past the fact that this isn't a satire I am going to throw up. I mean, it's a Straight-Pride Parade for God's sake.
― mehlt, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 19:27 (fifteen years ago) link