― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 13:55 (nineteen years ago) link
Ah, my friend, thus we move into the perilous question of how one defines sonics in specifically verbal terms (trust me, I have no answer to that one and never will).
Faulting him for people completely not getting it is kind of unfair.
Is faulting everyone for not understanding what someone is 'really' trying to say equally unfair, though? *shrug* I have no answer to that one. I mean, there are some people who think that Morrissey only sings suicide anthems. I could spend all day arguing about everything from humor to pop references to film-star iconography instead, but I admit it's not really something that troubles me so much.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 13:56 (nineteen years ago) link
Actually, this is interesting, because thinking back to when I first heard the song, about the two things that stood out the most were the opening part about a dead man's town and the guy who died in Vietnam. I can't say I was particularly saddened or regretful about any of that, though, I wasn't moved to tears -- was it because I was only 13, was it because Vietnam was just a name and ancient history for me, or (as I'd argue is more likely, but who knows) were they just words?
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:03 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:06 (nineteen years ago) link
For the record:
Born down in a dead man's townThe first kick I took was when I hit the groundYou end up like a dog that's been beat too muchTill you spend half your life just covering upBorn in the U.S.A.I was born in the U.S.A.I was born in the U.S.A.Born in the U.S.A.Got in a little hometown jamSo they put a rifle in my handSent me off to a foreign landTo go and kill the yellow manBorn in the U.S.A.I was born in the U.S.A.I was born in the U.S.A.I was born in the U.S.A.Born in the U.S.A.Come back home to the refineryHiring man says "Son if it was up to me"Went down to see my V.A. manHe said "Son, don't you understand"I had a brother at Khe Sahn fighting off the Viet CongThey're still there, he's all goneHe had a woman he loved in SaigonI got a picture of him in her arms nowDown in the shadow of the penitentiaryOut by the gas fires of the refineryI'm ten years burning down the roadNowhere to run ain't got nowhere to goBorn in the U.S.A.I was born in the U.S.A.Born in the U.S.A.I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.Born in the U.S.A.Born in the U.S.A.Born in the U.S.A.I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.
― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:07 (nineteen years ago) link
No, I didn't say that -- I merely said I noted that there was a reference to Vietnam, I didn't know it was supposed to be sung by a vet. And I can't say anything else about those lyrics besides those two parts I mentioned stood out for me or were even heard as such -- I remember *at the time* noting those two moments clearly. The rest was just the rest.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:13 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:14 (nineteen years ago) link
― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:15 (nineteen years ago) link
Also "Dancing in the Dark" is a much better song than "Born in the USA" or "Glory Days"!
― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:17 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:25 (nineteen years ago) link
"Clearly this is a song about the joyful feeling of living in a prosperous, well-adjusted society! Go America!"
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:27 (nineteen years ago) link
If I said anywhere it was specifically his fault, then I wasn't clear and I apologize for that. What interests me more is the fact that no matter what the intent of an artist, a listener (or reader or whoever or whatever) need not follow in line with that intent or goal in order to enjoy or appreciate it -- or misuse it, however that's defined. Even when a debate over it gets publicized to a huge degree, it might not change things for a listener -- thus the spat that erupted when Reagan's 1984 campaign wanted to use the song and Springsteen complained that the point was missed. I can't say I was swayed at the time either way but now I appreciate how the GOP misreading came about very easily and am actually more surprised at Springsteen's reaction in turn. His goals may not have been ambiguous, it might not have been his fault, but I have to say I'm not surprised at all such a situation arose.
xpost to a large degree with Blount's 'all most people heard' post.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:27 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:38 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:38 (nineteen years ago) link
chorus:"i am a real americanfight for the rights of every mani am a real americanfight for your rightsFIGHT FOR YOUR LIIIIIIFE!"
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:41 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:43 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:45 (nineteen years ago) link
oh man these lines (as sung) are devastating. heh i wonder why they didn't play this on at the democratic national convention.
i agree w/ally that "dancing in the dark" is the grtst thing ever.
will write more in a bit. can't do everyone's posts justice at the moment.
― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:45 (nineteen years ago) link
xpost
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:46 (nineteen years ago) link
Best version of "Dancing in the Dark" I ever heard was the 12" extended remix. More beats please.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:46 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:47 (nineteen years ago) link
Oh, give it time.
that's the arthur baker remix, right? that does smoke.
― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 14:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 16:47 (nineteen years ago) link
Recently I acquired an original program from the Born in the USA tour of the UK. Bruce had no one but himself to blame for the jingoist bandwagon. Every other photo inside is a huge spread of him with a flag. He's pumping his fist while waiving a flag, striking a rocker pose in front of the flag, & then there's an "arty" shot of a huge flag draped across a green prairie like an AIDS quilt. It ain't some Yank spin on the cover of The Kids are Alright; those shots celebrate America, pure and simple. Honestly there is no other way to see them.
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 17:06 (nineteen years ago) link
anyway i didn't articulate myself very well up above and i'm working on a better way to explain my thoughts.
― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 17:07 (nineteen years ago) link
I think a lot of the dislike for "Born In The U.S.A." (the song) was misplaced backlash against the whole "I'm an American" wave of songs that came out in the mid-80s - Bob Seger, Jackson Browne, etc. all had at least one and while they might have been lyrically satirical it didn't stop suburban meatheads from blaring the stereos in their Camaros while on their way to see All The Right Moves.
― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 17:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 17:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 17:17 (nineteen years ago) link
As for Born in the USA, as a kid (under 10?) I was turned off by the images of him with a huge flag behind him, and smiling. I saw that stuff more than I heard the song, and it's not like I listened to anything but the choruses when I did hear it. Even though I wasn't political, it annoyed me, and I never got over that prejudice. xpost!
― Richard K (Richard K), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 18:42 (nineteen years ago) link
Writing last week in the New York Times, political rocker Bruce Springsteen delivered familiar left-wing phrases. The war in Iraq was "unnecessary," he wrote. The circumstances of the war "are now discredited." We have run "record deficits, while simultaneously cutting and squeezing services like afterschool programs." Tax cuts have gone "to the richest 1 percent."
This is the new stage on which Springsteen is to be judged. Like his bandmates in Vote for Change, he has exited rock-and-roll proper. He is a political rocker now; the songs he plays at his rallies are political tools. Springsteen's words "no retreat, no surrender," once part of a passionate song of rebellion, hope, and fraternity, are now weighted with a specific message: No retreat from the fight against George W. Bush; no surrender until Bush is back in Texas.
Politics and rock make decision-makers of us all. That's America, and what makes it great. Sad that so many of us now have no choice but to vote against Bruce and Eddie and Dave and all the rest. Should they return to good ol' rock we'll be there waiting, and with somewhat open arms. In the meantime we'll listen to the bands we like that still play rock and (for the most part) shut-up about politics. We already know how we're going to vote.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 19:11 (nineteen years ago) link
― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 19:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 19:20 (nineteen years ago) link
It works on two levels: 1) the flagwaving, hooray-here-comes-the-chorus-so-we-can-sing-along level, and 2) the listen to the lyrics, "live the song" level. (or at least follow the trajectory of the song's narrator, which is what all fans of springsteen do when they listen to one of his story songs. They operate on as much of a cinematic level as a musical one.)
What Bruce intended with the song doesn't really matter, but i DO know that it was originally a one-chord blues dirge, and was reworked to become the uber-anthem/title track with all the synths. In reworking the musical aspect but not the lyrical one, he ended up with a schizoid statement. Too bad for him that it happened to be the first song, title track on the biggest alb of his career.
as for it being long, bitusa's only about four minutes, at least on the studio version. that's fuckin short compared to anything on born to run!
― drew, Tuesday, 10 August 2004 21:43 (nineteen years ago) link
― drew, Tuesday, 10 August 2004 21:52 (nineteen years ago) link
re: the flag stuff, I agree with the position above, it was a somewhat misguided patriotism-but-not-unquestioning thing going on ("Yes I am an American and yes I love Americans and America but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit around meatheading it" etc). And yes, his stylists went over the top with it. Still, I forgive them, it was worth it for the cover.
― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 22:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― drew, Tuesday, 10 August 2004 22:31 (nineteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 11 August 2004 18:34 (nineteen years ago) link
I think this sorta ties in with my argument that I don't listen for the lyrics much in the first place at all.
if you don't listen to the lyrics, you haven't 'heard' this album
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 19:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 19:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 19:17 (nineteen years ago) link