― Patrick, Monday, 26 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
I wish I wasn't misinterpreting.
― Otis Wheeler, Monday, 26 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Ally, Tuesday, 27 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Inspirational in some ways. I have often felt that England needed a Springsteen, albeit not just a a copycat 'rocker'; I mean, someone who would write about all the lost and found small-town lives. But to be fair, I suppose there is already a UK tradition here: the probably Jarvis Cocker is a case in point.
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 28 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Robin Carmody, Friday, 2 March 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Michael Bourke, Sunday, 4 March 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
1. they don't understand that he's actually not as "pro-america" as they might think he is
2. they don't have as close a connection to "old school" code (which includes "old school" rock)
3. they are mostly college kids on their way up to some office job or whatever that is removed (if not far removed) from the "underworld" (the "blue collar" or "real" world) to get the lyrical sentiments
4. well, and...sometimes people just don't like something 'cause they just don't like it
I, however, do not apply to any of those 4. For I actually do "get" some of the appeal of Bruce (albeit, it took my until my mid or late twenties to get there). Sure, his overly sentimental (downright broadway or maudlin) look at the working class can be a bit (or a bunch) too much. And sure, his music can be too simple and/or too derivitive. But, that's a part of the whole. Familiarity in both music and lyrics, is a large part of the appeal of his stuff (and those like him, ala Mellencamp, etc). He just had the concept to put nearly a whole career on the working class/blue collar life like no other has (not in such a wide reaching broad sense, at least - other than Mellencamp, but Bruce did it a bit better and first).
Classics:
Having said all that, 'Nebraska' and 'Ghost of Tom Joad' are the only two full albums that I would declare anywhere near a "classic" state of existence (with 'Nebraska' being the one clear-cut vote). Many of the rest of his 70's and 80's albums have some good solid worthy singles on them, but. I can't go so far as to get 'The River' (for example) anywhere near a "classic" nod. That one, in particular, I find to be overrated (though still having the wonderful track "Stolen Car" and the title track deserving of 'Nebraska'-like attention).
― michael g. breece, Sunday, 1 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Anyways, I forgot to mention to huge (to the point of shadowing) element as to one of the why's (or why not's) of enjoy/appreciating Bruce. Which is: DRIVING. Cars and driving is such a central and/or reoccuring figure/subject in his work that...I can't believe I forgot to touch upon that (only after reading some of the others posts, darn it). But yea, I do LOVE to drive. Which also helps to explain the appeal of Springsteen (to me, at least).
*By the way, I do own that McCulloch album 'Shame Based Man' and...love it (some really funny stuff and one of the very rare comedy albums worthy of many plays - if not it's own discussion here on "I Love Music"...anyone?). Every single one of my girlfriends (one present, others past) hated it. "And if (after torching the stolen car) you can still hear the Doors playing...then you have become...a DOORS...FAN!" I'm not a Doors fan, however.
― michael g. breece, Monday, 2 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― the pinefox, Monday, 2 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I hadn't listened to this record in a couple of years, but god, it still sounded great. Actually, I kept getting shivers down my spine when it was playing and it had me close to tears a few times (mostly on "Thunder Road" and "Backstreets.") Listening to this today finally settled an ILM debate for me: Music can never affect me quite as much now as it did when I was a teenager. No record I've heard in the last few years, including Loveless, has had as much affect on me as Born to Run did this morning, and I know it's not just because Born to Run is such a great album. This is a record that got to me when I was young and emotionally vulnerable in a way that I'm not anymore, at the age of 32. I still feel music very deeply and appreciate and enjoy a wider range of music than ever, but music doesn’t completely overpower me the way it did when I was 15. Oh well.
Springsteen is still a big classic, by the way, despite all the incredibly corny lines on Born to Run.
― Mark, Thursday, 24 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― DeRayMi, Thursday, 24 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 23:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
"candy's room" is the grebtest song ever written about being in love w. a prostitute when you sound a bit like david bowie
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 23:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 23:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 23:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 19 November 2002 23:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
Is this a new genre? Cos that'd be fucking incredible.
I still love Bruce Springsteen. Put on Rosalita and you will see me go insane.
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 03:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 03:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 03:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 03:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 03:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 03:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 05:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
― alext (alext), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 11:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 12:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
― the ponefix, Wednesday, 20 November 2002 13:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 16:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yancey (ystrickler), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 16:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
― piscesboy, Wednesday, 20 November 2002 16:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 17:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
Yeah, new album is weak. Basically just an excuse for the live shows, though, which according to what I've heard remain wonderful.
Found this at the near start of the thread, dunno if Ned can be bothered to talk about it now:
La Bruce just collectively calls to my mind a stunted bastard vision of music that presumes he was the sole carrier of the 'spirit of rock and roll truth' that the Beatles and Stones 'started' in the sixties.
Odd, because Springsteen's own views are the exact opposite- he was always far less interested in The Beatles and The Rolling Stones than he was in Phil Spector and James Brown.
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 20:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 20:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
Though he always does look really tense and "real rock" when he performs.
It used to be such that every time I got drunk, the evening would end with me and a gentleman companion in the group deciding to put on Dancing in the Dark and imitating the Boss & Courteney Cox dance. This has thankfully not occured in a long time now.
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 20:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
Ah, to explain my sense further -- there I wasn't referring to exact sound (I hope) so much as the role he seems to be in. I don't like universal idolatry, but personal, and so much around Bruce is "my god, the genius is among us all again! DO YOU SEE!" insistence that just makes me hate him even more. Like I said above in that quote, I don't get the sense that he believes that garbage (if he takes Dave Marsh at all seriously, though, that's a pisser).
And as for the music itself, a lot of people love Phil Spector and James Brown. In my mind, that doesn't give them a free pass for their own efforts. ;-)
My only realization about Bruce recently has been when I finally heard Bat Out of Hell and realized I loved that a hell of a lot more than any Springsteen I've heard.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 21:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Curtis Stephens, Wednesday, 20 November 2002 21:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Curtis Stephens, Wednesday, 20 November 2002 21:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 20 November 2002 22:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― man, Wednesday, 20 November 2002 22:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 12:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 12:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 22:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
Yeah, Nebraska is a pretty OK album, but I recall at the time that it was more noteworthy as an advertisement for Tascam's portastudio than as any kind of artistic breakthrough.
Even so, I'll give him a "Get Out Of Dud Free" card for this, which I think is pretty goddamn cool.
― Chris Barrus (xibalba), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 23:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 23:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― maryann (maryann), Saturday, 22 November 2003 08:55 (twenty years ago) link
― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 22 November 2003 10:55 (twenty years ago) link
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 22 November 2003 11:26 (twenty years ago) link
― sucka (sucka), Saturday, 22 November 2003 13:15 (twenty years ago) link
The sound at the show last week was almost unbearably loud (forgot to bring ear protection which i basically always tote to a show). The horn section was just blaring and after 2 hours I was semi covering the ear most exposed to a speaker stack when they came in. But I am really happy that I went and jeez feel like we really got our money's worth. Band sounded great and was awesome to see those legends.
― gneiss, gneiss, very gneiss (outdoor_miner), Friday, 5 April 2024 16:58 (one month ago) link
it's quite remarkable to see him in 2024 and consider that he is more or less 40 years past his live peak.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 5 April 2024 17:06 (one month ago) link
I love, for the boss' sake, that he has a "Little Big Man" in the band
― gneiss, gneiss, very gneiss (outdoor_miner), Friday, 5 April 2024 17:42 (one month ago) link
Jim DeRogatis has been pretty upfront about how much he hates Springsteen, but apparently he said on a recent podcast that he was bullied by Springsteen fans when he was a teenager (mentioned just in passing while dumping on Springsteen's music). This sounds like mockery but I would've been like "Jim, if Bruce knew, he would've gone out there and stood up for you." (And he would've too!)
― birdistheword, Sunday, 26 May 2024 17:58 (two days ago) link
What does he dislike about Springsteen's music?
― Lily Dale, Monday, 27 May 2024 02:11 (yesterday) link
I've heard him give every reason imaginable and at this point they feel like empty, hypocritical reasons given how he'll gush over other musicians or records far more guilty of the alleged offenses.
Here's a sample from 2005:
"Write about what you know" is the first rule teachers give all aspiring pretentious writers. The problem with Bruce climbing inside the heads of these characters is that he has long since lost any connection to their blue-collar roots, if he ever had them.
If Bruce wrote about what he knows these days, the labor disputes he'd chronicle would be about the difficulties of keeping good gardeners and nannies and the demands for bonuses that those pesky E Streeters make at the end of his top-grossing tours, and the personal conflicts would be along the lines of him wondering if it was worth it to alienate so many fans and invoke the scrutiny of the IRS by backing that loser John Kerry.
And somewhere in this clip is a rant that devolves into a bizarre attempt at humor, picking apart how Springsteen's dressed and complaining how he's actually "from the suburbs" and would've been eaten alive in New York City (which is a bit strange when Springsteen spent plenty of time there when he was struggling to get established).
― birdistheword, Monday, 27 May 2024 05:16 (yesterday) link
also strange because *not* being from the city has been a core part of springsteen's brand for his entire career. surely dero knows what (and where) new jersey is?
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 27 May 2024 06:07 (yesterday) link
Dero's from Jersey City!
― an icon of a worried-looking, long-haired, bespectacled man (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, 27 May 2024 12:29 (yesterday) link
Everything about these sentences is abysmal.
― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 27 May 2024 12:33 (yesterday) link
The hell is "pretentious" even doing there?
Levon Helm did not actually experience the Civil War
― Millennium Falco (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 27 May 2024 14:07 (yesterday) link
Don't get above your rising] raisin'
― Billion Year Polyphonic Spree (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 27 May 2024 14:08 (yesterday) link
some critics really do come up with strange convoluted overbaked reasons for not liking something when the truth is usually just “don’t like the tune or his voice”
― brimstead, Monday, 27 May 2024 14:18 (yesterday) link
Ya think?
― Billion Year Polyphonic Spree (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 27 May 2024 14:26 (yesterday) link
If he's writing that in 2005, about the stuff Springsteen was coming out with in 2005, then I think there's a part of it that I agree with, but that "if he every had them" definitely doesn't sound like someone who knows Springsteen's work at all.
Like, I do think that Springsteen in his early work is driven not just by connection to his blue-collar roots but by a sense of having just barely escaped a particular kind of working-class life that seemed to be marked out for him. And as he gets older and farther away from that life, and more comfortable with his status as a rich man, he loses that driving sense of "this could be me" that I think animates a lot of his portraits of people broken down or frustrated or limited by working-class life.
It makes me think of Dickens and the blacking factory, and one of the fundamental differences between Dickens and Springsteen (other than all the obvious ones) is that Dickens actually did work in the blacking factory, and so that experience is a foundational trauma that never quite goes away. Whereas for Springsteen it's a source of survivor guilt but not something that actually happened to him, and so its influence weakens over time.
And I think Springsteen is at his strongest when he is animated by that sense of identification with his characters, and that he finds that sense of identification, very often, through his own anxieties and obsessions. There's a feeling of "what if...?" behind a lot of Springsteen's songs, imo. Who or what would I be if I had never found music? If I had been sent to war? If I let myself drift too far away from people and couldn't find my way back?
By the time you get to Western Stars, the central "what if" has to do with marriage, and connections with people, and age, and the fear of impulsively throwing it all away and ending up alone at the end of your life. But there's a period in between Ghost of Tom Joad and Western Stars where Springsteen is still trying to be the writer of the working class, and imo you can tell that his heart isn't really in it, that the working-class experiences he's writing about are no longer the things that keep him up in the middle of the night. So on that level I don't exactly disagree with that criticism, but it sounds like it's coming from someone who wasn't going to like Springsteen no matter what.
― Lily Dale, Monday, 27 May 2024 17:19 (yesterday) link
"if he ever had them," rather
Great post lily
― Millennium Falco (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 27 May 2024 18:07 (yesterday) link
otm I think Tom Joan is the last time he’s really persuasive in that mode, and even there it feels more like journalism than imagined memoir — like he’s done the research and is mustering substantial empathy as an artist, but he’s not drawing from any well of experience or first-hand observations.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 27 May 2024 19:08 (yesterday) link
lol Tom Joad autocorrect
Excellent post Lily. And tipsy makes an excellent point how Joad "feels more like journalism than imagined memoir" - I've grown to like that album, but it's probably no coincidence that the best songs (at least for me) were based on stories already written in detail elsewhere. I supposed "Nebraska" can be described as such but IIRC a lot of what's memorable and haunting in that song are Springsteen's own creation. A large part of the title track of Joad translates and even transcribes what Steinbeck wrote for his novel. Then there's "Galveston Bay" which is all drawn from a real-life story - I'm not sure if any particular lyric stands out for me, but it's a great story where all the details add up to something that's left a stronger impression than anything else on the album.
― birdistheword, Monday, 27 May 2024 19:33 (yesterday) link
Yeah, the narratives on Nebraska feel deeply inhabited in a way they don't really on Tom Joad. Like whatever he'd tapped into on Nebraska wasn't quite there anymore, artistically, so he had to use other tools.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 27 May 2024 20:00 (yesterday) link
When more details about his depression came out in his memoir, it kind of suggested that Nebraska could only be a one-time achievement. IIRC, 1982 was about the time he really hit the breaking point with his depression, and a lot of that album really sits "comfortably" in the mindset of someone who's in a really dark place. If that's what it took to get him there, I don't hold it against him if he doesn't ever reach the same harrowing depths again.
― birdistheword, Monday, 27 May 2024 20:53 (yesterday) link
I hear a lot of depression on Tom Joad, but I agree that Nebraska was the kind of risk that he could only take once and didn't dare try for again. It was written iirc before Springsteen had his big breakdown on his cross-country drive, and I get a sense from it of Springsteen sliding into depression almost deliberately, not trying to break his fall because to him, at that moment, depression feels like creativity. There's a kind of dark energy to Nebraska, a black light of empathy that feels very seductive. You listen to a song like "Reason to Believe," which is imo the darkest song on the whole album, and it's so charged with that feeling that can accompany the beginning of depression, that the world has been revealed to you as it really is, and that there is something special, something meaningful, about this revelation. Once Springsteen has his big breakdown, I think he stops leaning into the depression in the same way, but I do think it's very much there on Tom Joad - it just has a duller, more exhausted, more lived-in quality by then.
My favorite songs on Joad are the ones that feel as if they were written out of a depression that's if anything more entrenched than that of Nebraska. "Highway 29," "Straight Time," "Dry Lightning," even "My Best Was Never Good Enough" - there's a kind of dull, nihilistic noir voice to all of them that feels like it's probably picking up something very real about Springsteen's state of mind. I agree about the working-class Social Problem songs on Tom Joad - they feel like journalism to me rather than something felt from the inside. But then there's this other side to Joad which is Springsteen writing noir, with that classic noir theme of being so isolated from normal society that all your moral/ethical landmarks disappear and you become monstrous because there is nothing around you to keep you human.
― Lily Dale, Monday, 27 May 2024 22:17 (yesterday) link
Which can also happen in the deeper journalism, like In Cold Blood. Steinbeck doesn't go deep/isolated in the same way, but he tracks bunches of Grapescharacters, and not just the Joads, through hellacious migration---all those camps, communities of night and day, strange weather, that the reader becomes familiar with, never accustomed to (interesting to compare Woody G.'s "Tom Joad" with Bruce's: Woody had more experience along the Joads' lines, although, like Bruce, he wisely got his ass to NYC and least the fringes of show biz, through he spurned some opportunities there).I wanted Bruce to drop the Popular Front approach and write about his and my father;s generation, The Greatest Generation as for instance Reagan Democrats, who had benefited at least in part from New Deal, Gi Bill, Eisenhower's construction of the Interstates, Military-industrial Complex boosting of economy------all that, and and then they turned against Big Government, in further contradiction, very selective "conservatism."He eventually addressed some of that in the monologues-with-piano of his Broadway stint, I think, but maybe not in songs? I haven't kept up, sorry.
― dow, Monday, 27 May 2024 23:48 (yesterday) link
I meant, *proceeded* in further contradiction, very selective "conservatism," *through the rest of their lives and in the legacy/encouragement of some descendants.*
― dow, Tuesday, 28 May 2024 00:04 (one hour ago) link
But there's a period in between Ghost of Tom Joad and Western Stars where Springsteen is still trying to be the writer of the working class, and imo you can tell that his heart isn't really in it
this may be true but it also gives me an excuse to bring up my favorite(????) springsteen song, “long time comin” from devils & dust. i mean he was doing a lot of character work at the time, it doesn’t all work or feel grounded in its setting but that one reaches in pretty deep imo
― ivy., Tuesday, 28 May 2024 00:43 (twenty-four minutes ago) link
sorry that is a totally distracting sidepoint from lily's (as usual) excellent springsteen scholarship
― ivy., Tuesday, 28 May 2024 00:48 (nineteen minutes ago) link