Hommophobia inna dancehall style...

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heh vs (public school) vs (ancient greece)

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:13 (twenty years ago) link

i mean in the song that was last posted, why the connectioon ?

-- anthony easton (anthonyeasto...), July 8th, 2003.

read the post above yours again, that's what i was referring to... the connection is easier to understand particularly if you read right the way from the top of this thread's resurrection (if you have time). i've gone some way to trying to tease this out, cybele's gone a lot further. it's a bit involved, but it's back to that whole personification thing we were on about. the "chi-chi man" seems to represent a lot more than just being gay.

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:54 (twenty years ago) link

does the homophobia in dancehall music seem to be directed at an actualy visible homosexual presence in jamaican life (however marginal) or is it mostly invoking a spectre of "bablyon"?

cybele will be able to tell you more about the actual existence of gay communities in jamaica as this is something i know very little about, however, as far as i know being visibly gay is not really an option for the majority on the island. the whole thing i find interesting is the fact that the vast majority of the hatred is not in fact aimed at gay people at all, merely using homophobic terminologies as catchwords for so much more

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:05 (twenty years ago) link

i noted for future reading a piece in some mag — the face? not sure — about a year ago which wz about the black gay jamaican club scene, but never went back to it and can't now remember where i saw it (it might have been when i wz waiting to get a haircut: eg i don't think i own the mag so cannot dig it out of my "archive"/unsorted tottering random pile)

judging by the headline and strap (as based on my possibly inaccurate memory) this scene exists reasonably openly and is militantly determined to continue to enjoy itself despite whatever

however i think some dots now need joining by someone who knows what they're talking about!!

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:12 (twenty years ago) link

there were certainly gay dancehall clubs in london some time ago (i don't know for sure if they continue to), as detailed in a piece in i-D magazine, which i still own. the scene was memorably described as "fagamuffin"...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:17 (twenty years ago) link

eleven months pass...
Published on Saturday, June 26, 2004 by the Guardian/UK

Chilling Call to Murder as Music Attacks Gays

Jamaican rights activist's death is officially said to be motivated by robbery, but campaigners point to pop-fueled homophobia

by Gary Younge in New York

In the heat of January in Jamaica 30,000 people came to the Rebel Salute concert in St. Elizabeth to hear some of the nation's most popular singers deliver a chilling call. With Capleton and Sizzla singing almost exclusively about gay men, the call went out from the stadium:

"Kill dem battybwoys haffi dead, gun shots pon dem ... who want to see dem dead put up his hand" (Kill them, the queers have to die, gun shots in their head ... put up your hand if you want to see them dead.)

Two weeks ago Jamaica's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson, was murdered at his home. Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-FLAG), was found with multiple stab wounds to his neck and his face and his throat cut.

With his safe missing and his room ransacked, the police insist that it was a robbery and have one person in custody. Jamaica's gay activists and human rights campaigners are not so sure. They fear Mr Williamson could have been targeted because of his sexual orientation.

"Given the climate that exists in Jamaica there is high possibility that Brian's murder is a hate related crime and we don't want the police to rule that out," said a representative of J-FLAG, who did not wish to be named for fear of reprisals. Brian was one of the few people who felt comfortable enough to go public with his homosexuality."

Indeed, last May Mr Williamson wrote to the national newspaper, the Jamaica Observer, explaining: "We who are homosexuals are seen as 'the devil's own children' and passed by on the other side of the street or beaten to death by our fellow citizens."

The hatred has followed him to the grave. "We've had one or two well wishers from the straight community," said the J-FLAG representative. "But many more have said things like: 'This is what you get for sin' or 'we should get them one by one.'"

Human rights campaigners say that while the precise motive of Mr Williamson's killers may never be known, his death provides a timely opportunity for the government to address the problem. "We have called on the Jamaican authorities to use this time to make a public statement condemning homophobia and calling for people to respect the rights of lesbian and gay men," said Michael Heflin, of Amnesty International in the United States.

This is not likely to happen soon. From Buju Banton's Boom Boom Bye Bye, which threatened gay men with a "gunshot in ah head", to Beenie Man's "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays", Jamaica's popular music scene is steeped in homophobia. Concern that his lyrics could incite violence against gays and activists led to the cancellation of a concert by Beenie Man in London earlier this week.

But songs are not the only place where homophobia is blatant. At a state level, article 76 of the nation's offences against the person act criminalizes the "abominable crime of buggery" with up to 10 years imprisonment, while article 79 punishes any act of physical intimacy between men in public or private with up to two years in jail and the possibility of hard labor.

A recent poll showed 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to any move to legalize homosexual relations. And while the police do not condone homophobic violence, they are often unsympathetic to the victims.

One man described to J-FLAG how six men blocked a road in order to beat up a local gay man. "The crowd stood around watching, chanting 'Battyman, battyman, battyman', before gathering around him as he lay on the sidewalk. The crowd punched and kicked him. They threw garbage on him, all the while shouting 'Battyman, battyman'. They then dragged him down the road for half a kilometer ... The crowd was saying 'Give him to us! Let us kill him! He's a battyman'."

At least five gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia. "I had to leave because of the pressure," said one 26-year-old Jamaican who settled in Britain in 2000 and asked to remain anonymous. "I had been beaten up and chased and the police would not help you. Once I went to hospital after I was badly beaten up and they refused to treat me."

Few can agree on the source of such homophobia. But most agree the church plays a crucial role. "Evangelical Christianity is very strong, and there is a prudishness and hypocrisy that comes with that," said a representative of J-FLAG. "They ignore the part that says don't have sex out of wedlock and focus on gays."

Others claim the sheer geographical size of islands in the Caribbean makes them more socially conservative. "So long as you are stuck living close to your family then you never really get the space to make the kind of choices about your life that will challenge the values and practices you've been brought up with," said Erin Greene, a member of the Rainbow Alliance of the nearby Bahamas.

The particularly violent expression homophobia has found in Jamaica, most agree, reflects a particularly violent society. In 2002 1,045 people were murdered, and according to Amnesty International, Jamaica has the highest number of police killings per capita in the world. In the national paper, the Daily Gleaner, the murder count is updated daily, between the weather forecast and the lottery numbers.

"The worst thing is when you see children of three or four singing songs about killing the Chi Chi [gay] man," said one J-FLAG representative. "They are learning from an early age that violence against gay people is acceptable."

© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 26 June 2004 13:02 (nineteen years ago) link

(Yes, I know it's in the Qur'an as well. I'm not telling anyone to stop listening to dancehall.)

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 26 June 2004 13:09 (nineteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Buju Banton, is being sought by police in Jamaica in connection with a homophobic attack on a group of gay men.
Mr Banton was allegedly one of a group of about a dozen armed men who forced their way into a house in Kingston on the morning of June 24 and beat up the occupants while shouting homophobic insults, according to the victims. . .

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 17 July 2004 01:39 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
Dancehall's Vicious Side: Antigay Attitudes

comme personne (common_person), Monday, 6 September 2004 15:39 (nineteen years ago) link

there is an article about this in the economist too.

keith m (keithmcl), Monday, 6 September 2004 19:33 (nineteen years ago) link

reggae artist are right to call out these fags cause they are very annoying. All fags are going to hell that shit is wrong.

Nasty, Monday, 13 September 2004 12:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Thanks for sharing!

Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 13 September 2004 13:09 (nineteen years ago) link

people are going to hell because they're "annoying"?
that's more or less the whole of ilm condemned to eternal damnation, then.

stelfox, Monday, 13 September 2004 13:20 (nineteen years ago) link

if U like fags good 4 you, I hate their gay ass.

nasty, Monday, 13 September 2004 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Meanwhile, from the Village Voice's nonjudgmental listings page: 'Audiences tend to take it literally when reggae’s Fireman calls "fe fiah." Since the NYFD is minutes away, expect figurative combustion instead as Capleton makes an inventory of Babylonian sins with haranguing fury and monumental riddim skills.'

Paul Eater (eater), Monday, 13 September 2004 13:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Nasty, please provide proof of this "Hell". The search function didn't help.

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Monday, 13 September 2004 13:30 (nineteen years ago) link

nasty, prove you know anything at all about dancehall and aren't a complete imbecile, then maybe i'll bother to talk to you. otherwise fuck off and shut up.

stelfox, Monday, 13 September 2004 14:11 (nineteen years ago) link

how about, FUCK DANCEHALL.


seriously, what are its redeeming qualities, i'd really like to know?

reo, Sunday, 26 September 2004 19:40 (nineteen years ago) link

and will someone also tell me why they like this "crunk" bullshit?


is it lil' jon shouting in an usher song that really grabs a hold onto your heart strings or what!?

reo, Sunday, 26 September 2004 19:42 (nineteen years ago) link

yes it must be impossible for people to like music you can't see the redeeming qualities of. there must be none! what a smart intelligent approach.

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 26 September 2004 19:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Why not read the many amazing posts above before casually debasing the argument? There's obviously a lot to be said about this subject.

nameom (nameom), Sunday, 26 September 2004 20:18 (nineteen years ago) link

four months pass...
I think this is a very good idea.

Dancehall Fans Against Homophobia is a petition-based campaign that rejects homophobic lyrics, and also rejects the recent attacks on dancehall and reggae by an over-zealous and ill-informed media.

The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:08 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't

stelfox, Monday, 31 January 2005 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link

because?

The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:34 (nineteen years ago) link

it will only add to the confusion won't it?

Stevem On X (blueski), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:37 (nineteen years ago) link

ties in with this thread

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:47 (nineteen years ago) link

well, it's not jamaican dancehall fans and i find that *really* problematic.

stelfox, Monday, 31 January 2005 16:53 (nineteen years ago) link

well Dave I don't see any Genuine Authentic Jamaican Dancehall Fans really working actively against homophobia (feel free to point them out if I'm mistaken here), so this is the best we have right now. Unless of course you prefer that we do/say nothing and just accept it as part of the music and culture, which seems to be what your position is anyway.

it must be nice to be a straight man and not actually affected by homophobia!

The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link

(While I agree w/ yr argument Lex I don't think that's fair to Dave, making the assumption that he hasn't thought this out etc.)

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 16:56 (nineteen years ago) link

haha

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:02 (nineteen years ago) link

really predictable. i think it's wrong, therefore i'm a homophobe. ilm - for a predictable 2005...

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:03 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't see where anyone's accused you of being a homophobe. Straw men are even more predictable.

I find your division of dancehall fans into the authentic real Jamaicans and the inauthentic non-Jamaicans risible.

Damien P., Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:09 (nineteen years ago) link

no i'm terribly sorry, i'm wrong. an internet list of 50-odd people who all own copies of strictly the best volume 32 will obviously affect change far quicker in a country several thousand miles away than all the factors i've spent a good few years outlining.

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:17 (nineteen years ago) link

my one wish - it's a little dream but it keeps me warm at night - is that people here will one day realise that it's a good idea to have at least a vague clue ast to what they're on about before they start condescendingly shooting their mouths off.

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:27 (nineteen years ago) link

(translation: I'm the self-appointed expert round these parts, all the rest of you shut the fuck up)

50-odd people and a website won't change the world, no. But cumulative outside pressure, particularly on a commercial enterprise such as the making and selling of music, has been known to have some effect. It's one strategy to be used in concert with others.

Damien P., Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:32 (nineteen years ago) link

well, not exactly self-appointed. now be polite or shut up.

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link

Sorry if I sounded rude. But the "I know more than you therefore I'm right and you shut up" argument only gets you so far though.

damien, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:38 (nineteen years ago) link

and may i ask who the fuck you are to belive you have *any* right to apply pressure to something that you have absolutely fuck all to do with when there are artists within the scene beginning to speak out about it in jamaica which will do a lot more than the vastly counterproductive paternalistic meddling that you're advocating. i've said it before and i'll say it one last time - this sort of stuff MAKES THINGS WORSE if done on a grand scale. as it stands, though, this example is just lame, as in it'll have no effect whatsoever.

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:40 (nineteen years ago) link

people apply pressure to stuff they have nothing to do with all the time, being consumers

dave q (listerine), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link

The Dissensus thread on this went much better, I think haha

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:47 (nineteen years ago) link

agreed. if you don't like it, don't listen or buy it. end of. highminded gestures like this are beyond facile, though.

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link

"Now be polite or shut up"

CLASSIC!!!!!

haha btw the first tenet of the petition says "We are fans and supporters of reggae, dancehall and Jamaican music in all its forms."

Aside from the homophobic ones, I presume.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link

oh, to hell with this

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:57 (nineteen years ago) link

anyway, i'm sagely told that MIA is better than anything jamaica has turned out since sleng teng so i dunno what we're all even bothered about. turn your attention somewhere worthwhile.

stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 18:03 (nineteen years ago) link

It's not only a Jamaican issue, though. Given relative population sizes, the UK probably has a lot more dancehall fans than Jamaica. There is a question of simply speaking out against the distribution of homophobic music in the UK, regardless of whether it's imported from another culture. I find the "if you don't like it, don't listen to it" argument pretty lame from that perspective. There's homophobic music being promoted and played in the UK, why shouldn't I be pissed off about that and vocal about my pissed-offness, whether it's through an internet petition or whatever?

Even with regards Jamaica itself, how far would your moral relativism take you, stelfox? What would you be willing to accept in its name? Reductio ad absurdam: let's say the murder of gay men became legal, would you still want to lay off?

damien, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 18:06 (nineteen years ago) link

damien have you read this whole thread? on this and others dave has pointed out where the priorities should be when it comes to addressing this issue and i'm convinced by his arguments generally given his expertise and knowledge in the field. to encourage more tolerance requires more tolerance but there is only so much that can be done by different (and wealthier) people from a different (and wealthier) culture regardless of the music's global impact.

Stevem On X (blueski), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 18:22 (nineteen years ago) link

I've got to say, the title of this thread is great!

Jena (JenaP), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 21:27 (nineteen years ago) link

The other thread on homophobia and dancehall is worth reading, too.

is the prevalence of knee-jerk liberalism toward jamaican (especially dancehall) homophobia almost as problematic as the homophobia itself?

Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Dave, I've read your posts here and on the other thread a couple times. (Incidentally, I asked you a direct question on the other thread, and you seemed to ignore it.) I'm still puzzled, though, how something like this here Dancehall Fans Against Homophobia web site isn't just another version of you calling dancehall stars on their homophobia during interviews (which you said you did above).

Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:18 (nineteen years ago) link

an internet list of 50-odd people who all own copies of strictly the best volume 32 will obviously affect change far quicker in a country several thousand miles away than all the factors i've spent a good few years outlining.

'factors' don't 'affect change'. they are just factors. you have indeed spent a long time outlining them, and most of us have taken them on board. we understand. this brings us no closer to actually resolving the issue at hand! Dave, I would be happy if for once you actually put forward a workable, non-condescending solution based on your superior knowledge &c. Obviously I don't think you are a homophobe, but it's hard not to suspect that you don't care that much about it as it doesn't affect you.

this post comes across as way too patronising/aggressive so sorry - am drunk.

The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 2 February 2005 01:22 (nineteen years ago) link


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