[please forgive the talk of "a critic's job" and "obligation" in the following. it's not mine to say, but i don't know how else to say it...]
the "importance" talk is a red herring. way upthread, there were posters who at least seemed to argue that this album's importance was sufficient in itself to justify its extremely high ratings and unanimously positive critical response. as though you almost had to give kanye those points, whether or not you actually liked or respected the album yourself, simply because the indisputable significance of this dark twisted fantasy could not be denied. (and no, i'm not paraphrasing any specific poster's argument, and i'll be fucked if i'll go digging for source quotes in this monster thread. maybe i'm completely wrong here, but i seem to recall this being the gist of at least a few posts.)
thing is, it's not really critic's job to notice and laud mere importance, especially when the importance in question is of the sort conferred by anticipation, popularity and sales. those things announce and laud themselves. it's certainly a critic's job to point out that which seems important by virtue of its ambition, artistic courage, and consonance with or commentary on the culture at large, but none of these things are necessarily positive traits in isolation. when critics of popular commodities make buyer's-guide-style quality judgments, such as numerical ratings, a key component of their evaluations, they must speak plainly about how good they think the thing in question is: what it does, how it does it, and most crucially, what it does and doesn't get right along the way. the rating should reflect not only the supposed importance of the thing, but also the critic's own personal assessment of its quality, value and aesthetic appeal. that's how i see it, anyway.
i'd say that this critical obligation extends equally to all albums & songs, no matter how objectively important they might seem. if anything, supposedly moment-defining "event albums" deserve more honest and less generous criticism than marginal releases that few will ever hear in the first place. important albums don't automatically deserve glowing reviews and 10.0 ratings, especially if one doesn't actually like them or believe that they're entirely successful relative to their ambitions. it seems to me that those once-in-a-blue-moon superlatives should be reserved, yes, for seemingly important albums, but more specifically for those few important albums that also seem timeless, all but flawless and satisfactorily successful relative to everything they attempt. and even then, only when you really, honestly love the music to death, in every moment, and want to play it over and over and over again until the day you die, or until your spouse "accidentally" breaks/loses/deletes it, or at least for the next six months. otherwise, 9.3, 'A' for effort...
― Today, if he makes a grunge (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 21:59 (thirteen years ago) link
"the "importance" talk is a red herring. way upthread, there were posters who at least seemed to argue that this album's importance was sufficient in itself to justify its extremely high ratings and unanimously positive critical response. as though you almost had to give kanye those points, whether or not you actually liked or respected the album yourself, simply because the indisputable significance of this dark twisted fantasy could not be denied. (and no, i'm not paraphrasing any specific poster's argument, and i'll be fucked if i'll go digging for source quotes in this monster thread. maybe i'm completely wrong here, but i seem to recall this being the gist of at least a few posts.)"
no one was arguing this
― *plop*ism rules (deej), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:39 (thirteen years ago) link
i did argue that it made sense *for pitchfork* to vote that way bcuz of the way the album is sorta 'culturally placed' but thats a different issue; i didnt vote for it in y-e
― *plop*ism rules (deej), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
looking back, j0rdan seems to have been the first to suggest that pitchfork's GOAT makes sense in light of kanye's importance and p4k's own cultural positioning. others quickly took up the chorus that the rating had to have been based more on these qualities than on musical merit and/or personal affection alone: dayo, dorianlynsky, etc. though it's just a throwaway comment, the [redacted] tumblr that dayo quoted articulates the critical stance i was reacting against above:
10. Do I enjoy the record? No, not especially, or at least not as a 70 minute experience. Parts of it. Songs on shuffle. But it’s exhausting! In the way Important Records usually are. I’ve played it three times through - hardly enough to have an opinion - but I’m not really reaching for it again.
that's the sort of thing i was responding to, and most of it was said three weeks ago. didn't have anything to do w/ you in particular, deej.
― a man called hearse (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 December 2010 05:46 (thirteen years ago) link
***RANKING KANYE***
I would like to point out that I have been OTM
― dayo, Thursday, 16 December 2010 05:47 (thirteen years ago) link
i know people like to make fun of jay-z's verse on monster. generally i don't have a problem with it but there's something hilarious about having the line "all I see is these n-ggas I've made millionaires / milling about, spilling their feelings in the air" on a kanye west song
― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, 16 December 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link
lol
(that's actually a pretty good line, too!)
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Thursday, 16 December 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link
well it's a direct diss at beanie sigel, but yeah
― *plop*timist (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 16 December 2010 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link
ha i didn't think it was actually directed at kanye but it's funny how you could say the same things about kanye and it's, you know, on a kanye song
― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, 16 December 2010 20:56 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah it's about beanie...actually it's not a bad line and it's one of jay's more tolerable recent verses - any time he can get to 6/10 it's an accomplishment
― k3vin k., Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:37 (thirteen years ago) link
LOOOOOOOVE notwithstanding...god i wish jay from 10 years ago could see himself now
a ferrari, a jaguar, switching four lanes,top down, screaming out LOOOOOOOOVE
― markers, Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link
o wait that was jermaine dupri's line forget it
― markers, Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:40 (thirteen years ago) link
it was actually still kinda funny
― *plop*timist (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:41 (thirteen years ago) link
someone could do a jay-z/j. lo mash up called "LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE don't cost a thing"
― *plop*timist (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:42 (thirteen years ago) link
LOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooool
― unemployed aerosmith fans I have shoved (bernard snowy), Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:43 (thirteen years ago) link
guys there's no way a line about "millionaires" is directed at beanie sigel
― some dude, Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:58 (thirteen years ago) link
― markers, Thursday, December 16, 2010 4:39 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― markers, Thursday, December 16, 2010 4:40 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
jay wrote jd's lines and said that line on reasonable doubt first fwiw
― some dude, Thursday, 16 December 2010 21:59 (thirteen years ago) link
ah! good to know
― markers, Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:00 (thirteen years ago) link
yah that line's off 'cant knock the hustle'!
― *plop*ism rules (deej), Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:08 (thirteen years ago) link
i kinda hope beanie just shoots everybody
― in my world of Hmong ppl (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:15 (thirteen years ago) link
i think that is like...the opposite of your famous ma$e post
― The Reverend, Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:32 (thirteen years ago) link
i was so happy to see beanie return on a murderous rampage, i welcomed him
― some dude, Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:35 (thirteen years ago) link
hahahaha
a joke of course but i don't like ppl talking bad about beanie he is one of my favorite rappers.
― in my world of Hmong ppl (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link
beanie's the illest but the way he's handled the whole jay thing is pathetic and depressing
― some dude, Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE
― irish xmas caek, get that marzipan inta ya (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:45 (thirteen years ago) link
occasional ilx poster otm re beanie & jay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqRniPQ5unc
― zvookster, Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:47 (thirteen years ago) link
i still have this funny picture of upper mississippi hearing a ma$e song and saying quietly "...welcome"
― kanellos (gbx), Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:49 (thirteen years ago) link
:-D
― markers, Thursday, 16 December 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link
that video is awesome :)
― in my world of Hmong ppl (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 December 2010 23:04 (thirteen years ago) link
^___^
― dirty *plop* (The Reverend), Friday, 17 December 2010 00:22 (thirteen years ago) link
who is that
― dayo, Friday, 17 December 2010 00:37 (thirteen years ago) link
jsmooth posts here? lol who he is - his vids are awesome
― no hipster hats (The Brainwasher), Friday, 17 December 2010 01:30 (thirteen years ago) link
jsmooth75 or something pretty recognizable like that
― zvookster, Friday, 17 December 2010 01:32 (thirteen years ago) link
same as his twitter
not luriqua, then
― dayo, Friday, 17 December 2010 01:33 (thirteen years ago) link
american drunkyard
― zvookster, Friday, 17 December 2010 01:33 (thirteen years ago) link
btw did the "so much head i ended up in sleepy hollow" line ever get discussed??? wtf is that line supposed to mean?
― in my world of Hmong ppl (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link
headless horseman
― dayo, Friday, 17 December 2010 02:18 (thirteen years ago) link
maybe he literally cut the head off the girl who was blowing him
and then traveled to sleepy hollow in pennsylvania
― dayo, Friday, 17 December 2010 02:19 (thirteen years ago) link
and then tweeted about it
sleepy hollow is in ny *pedant*
― dirty *plop* (The Reverend), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:22 (thirteen years ago) link
pusha t with another headless horseman ref later in the album too
― franz kaptcha (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link
kind of suprised kanye resisted the urge to say "the legend of pee-pee swallow"
...POLTERGEIST
― return of the nakh (J0rdan S.), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:25 (thirteen years ago) link
― franz kaptcha (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah i got the headless horseman thing but that seems to suggest that kanye doesn't get any blow jobs.....or maybe he got so many blowjobs his dick fell off....
― in my world of Hmong ppl (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:41 (thirteen years ago) link
i sent this girl a picture of my ken doll-like empty pubis
― dirty *plop* (The Reverend), Friday, 17 December 2010 02:48 (thirteen years ago) link
there was an old Kanye mixtape song with another goofy variation on the same theme -- "wife dont give head? get a divorce man/ the kids been callin you the headless horseman/ like Sleepy Hollow/ see she swallow" etc.
― some dude, Friday, 17 December 2010 03:10 (thirteen years ago) link