never seen someone work so hard to defend an album they don't even like that much by their own admission
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 01:47 (thirteen years ago) link
or maybe i just dont see the pt in manning the barricades against it? i dunno ive done basically the same thing w/ cee lo, archandroid, amy winehouse ... theres this MOR-ishness that I dont particularly find myself drawn to, but feels overhated or something
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 01:50 (thirteen years ago) link
No I see what you're saying, deej, and don't think my statements are mindblowing at all. But I'm not hating it either. I like it, sometimes a lot, I just feel like it's held back by some things.
― altered boners (rennavate), Saturday, 27 November 2010 01:52 (thirteen years ago) link
"it just kinda reminds me of ppl who would be like "i wish i could hear this biggie song without puffy talking on it"
I think Puffy talking on Biggie tracks is completely different than adding three minutes of vocoder wanking, but I think you know it's not the same thing, either.
― altered boners (rennavate), Saturday, 27 November 2010 01:53 (thirteen years ago) link
that's kind of why i give you a hard time on the "my world of young ppl" tip -- this drive to defend things that are fairly popular that you don't like that much against the meanies of ILM is kind of perverse imo. i mean i run to the defense of all kinds of pop that people think is crap, but only if i actually enjoy it and fully believe in its merits myself, not just because i know some nice folks who like it. (xpost)
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 01:54 (thirteen years ago) link
i said this upthread but a 9-minute "Runaway" isn't that bad in theory, if he took a cue from stuff like the 8-minute 12" mix of "Little Red Corvette" and actually got creative and threw a bunch of new lyrics and musical ideas in there. instead it's just bland, especially given that the single mix feels kind of overlong and not too judiciously edited itself.
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 01:56 (thirteen years ago) link
well im not defending something i straight-up dislike, though -- in every case ive seen 'merits' in what im defending, including this one. i think what im saying is a lot more nuanced than that. im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on. Its just constructed in such a way as to minimize the amount of time i want to spend with it -- all those codas, all that instrumental-y stuff is way too draining. its the anti-singles collection, and per ilx dogma i tend to veer closer to preferring singles collections
but that doesnt mean this is 'worthless.' to me, lex's review seems way over the top w/ its hating. as did your snappiness when i suggested that although i dont feel as strongly about it, i thought nitsuh's review was really insightful! my reaction here isnt some tempered-by-populism bullshit, its genuine interest in the albums in question.
typically when i bring up the 'world of young ppl' stuff its more about responding to a generic strawman rock critic who doesn't get 'real R&B' because he likes amy winehouse or something, so i feel obligated to point out that actually lots of normal R&B fans like it too.
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:04 (thirteen years ago) link
responding to the construction of a generic strawman rock critic, i should say
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:05 (thirteen years ago) link
& 'normal' should be scare quotes
im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on. Its just constructed in such a way as to minimize the amount of time i want to spend with it -- all those codas, all that instrumental-y stuff is way too draining. its the anti-singles collection, and per ilx dogma i tend to veer closer to preferring singles collections
yeah see this is pretty much what the people who outright dislike it are saying, except we don't feel compelled to pay lip service to the "I'm interested in how interesting this album's interesting aspects are" thing. Kanye throws some curveballs into everything he does, but now that that's part of his established pattern, this just sounds like a logical progression from his other stuff, with nothing especially fresh (sonically or lyrically or whatever) to make me feel excited about it.
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:08 (thirteen years ago) link
like the first couple albums had songs i immediately was knocked out by, when i got Graduation i was crazy about "Flashing Lights" and thought it just sounded totally badass and different -- on here it's like "oh yeah this is what a post-Blueprint 3 Kanye album was always gonna sound like."
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:11 (thirteen years ago) link
wtf 'pay lip service'??? i just dont hate it like you do!
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:12 (thirteen years ago) link
what is this 'with us or against us' mentality u have about this record?
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:13 (thirteen years ago) link
when you say something like "im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on" but never seem to have any really specific or enthusiastic things to say about individual songs or aspects of the record, it feels like you're just appreciating the idea that it's an "interesting" album in a kind of polite, distanced way, is all I'm saying.
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:14 (thirteen years ago) link
like if you truly believe something is "important and original" maybe you should be telling us where it made you go "holy shit" or want to transcribe the verses and pore over them instead of just defending it from the people who outright dislike it.
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link
lots of 'board regulars' post on many threads and end up getting into different conversations and arguments with other 'board regulars.' occasionally there is a kind of running unpleasantness between 2 people, but honestly when someone says "you're following me from thread to thread and stalking me just to argue with me," it usually feels like they're actually saying "the only reason you can possibly be disagreeing with me on this thread is that you have a PERSONAL GRUDGE with me, there's no way you could actually honestly object to my post."
― some dude, Friday, November 26, 2010 4:28 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
yes, thats what im saying he is doing
― challop and a muff (deej), Friday, November 26, 2010 4:30 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
btw it was pretty hilarious how i described a totally paranoid conceited POV and you just matter-of-factly went "yup, that's me"
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:19 (thirteen years ago) link
ok, i love the beat to monster & nicki's verse, i like the epic-ness of the opening leading into the RZA beat, like the mood switchup when it goes into that all of the lights song, really like the bink beat although i did find the extended instrumental transitions between verses to be tiring, not bad while they're happening but in a way that limits replayability. what is interesting about it to me is how ambitious it seems in a way that is kind of late 90s puffy-esque, but in a more art school, rather than blockbuster-commercial way, like he's the mainstreaming-of-indie generation's Bad Boy Records. I think his willingness to take rap & put it in a Album Art presentation context is kind of interesting. It's obviously not something that almost any other rapper's can pull off. i like on monster how he limits rick ross' verse to an opening carnival barker kind of thing. love the way certain role players are used -- the cameos, the all-star feel of it. its the kind of ambitiousness that is missing from pop rap in these 'hard economic times'
i dunno, theres something about event-ness than can appeal to me too. I do enjoy the instrumental outro w/ gil scott heron, a lot. although i think its really interesting what has been cut from it.
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:23 (thirteen years ago) link
i sit alone in my four cornered room staring at mountain goats
― dayo, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link
― some dude, Friday, November 26, 2010 8:19 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
i dont think theres anything 'paranoid' about it, he basically has been following me into threads & just disagreeing w me to the extent that he even made jokes about it. & i specifically said that i didnt know what his motives were, maybe he just thought he was helping me out or whatever, nice of you to cut that out in order to make it seem like im saying he has a 'grudge'
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:25 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah he's very much a child of Bad Boy -- i often think about how Kanye was so eager to get on that if some other label besides Roc signed him he probably would've tailored his style to them and eventually had them tailor their style to him the same way -- like think about if Diddy was his big brother/mentor figure all these years instead of Jay
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link
i dont see whats so 'paranoid' & 'conceited' about observing that dude often seems to pick fights with me simply because its me & not because he necessarily cares that much about the issue at hand. i mean you even did it the other day, where dan had to pt out that if someone else had said something you would have just ignored it!
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link
sorry for responding to al's continued trolling
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:27 (thirteen years ago) link
dozens of people are clicking on New Answers all the time -- how do you know who's "following you" into threads? i'm sorry but it just sounds crazy to say something like that.
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:27 (thirteen years ago) link
got an eye on both of u
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:28 (thirteen years ago) link
i dunno dude i just noticed that every time i seemed to disagree w/ someone he would jump in & take their side
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean i told aerosmith upthread straight up that all his posts in this thread were kind of saying nothing and it felt like he was just chiming in because this thread is where the action is and he saw some easy zings -- we all do that sometimes and it's fine to call people on it. but you fight with LOTS of people here OFTEN and it's kind of hilarious for you to decide one person who you provoke a lot or who likes to provoke you is literally following you into threads and starting shit on purpose.
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link
he def seems more interested in arguing w/ me than others -- dont know what else to say here
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:31 (thirteen years ago) link
that if nobody else notices it it's entirely possible it's all in your head?
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:32 (thirteen years ago) link
you would say the same things about me & whiney except that we would work in equal opportunity ways -- i never start picking fights w/ john though, which is why its weird that we have a similar beef thing
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:34 (thirteen years ago) link
exception for politics thread, though -- thats the one place where i tend to take particular issue w/ him first
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:35 (thirteen years ago) link
which is part of what made it seem out of the usual -- like, is he really bringing our disagreement across into other threads now? our worldviews are apparently opposed in every aspect of ilx discussion
― challop and a muff (deej), Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:36 (thirteen years ago) link
i never said that about you and whiney -- you guys totally troll each other deliberately (but of course you don't follow each other into threads -- virtually nobody does that, get real)
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:38 (thirteen years ago) link
aero banned himself today so this is a bit of a moot discussion.
― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:39 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah i know -- my fault for bringing it up again
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:40 (thirteen years ago) link
deej is getting a bad rap itt
i think his posts make sense
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:50 (thirteen years ago) link
he's made good points, i'm not saying he's off his rocker -- i just think it's funny how he's filibustering in defense of something he only kinda sorta likes
― some dude, Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:53 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah it is
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:56 (thirteen years ago) link
towing the company line and all, lol
― overtheseas aeroplanes I have flown (k3vin k.), Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:22 (thirteen years ago) link
TOEing
yeah it took me a long time to figure out that deej's stance was actually just 'meh' on this
― dayo, Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:23 (thirteen years ago) link
haha yeah i was just alluding to how it was spelled the first time
― overtheseas aeroplanes I have flown (k3vin k.), Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:23 (thirteen years ago) link
can we talk about the album instead of ourselves
― Joe Wasp (DJP), Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:46 (thirteen years ago) link
or at least talk about ourselves in relationship to the album, since the thread is about the album
If you took "Dark Fantasy", "Gorgeous" and "Devil In A New Dress" off of this, I would have no qualms with the near-unanimous positive reviews this is getting. ("So Appalled" isn't that great either but is more tolerable than the other three.) There is a lot going on that I really, really dig, and it's probably for the best that I'm not really a lyrics guy because Kanye is still kind of amazingly stupid.
― Joe Wasp (DJP), Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:49 (thirteen years ago) link
damn those three songs might be my favorite three & "so appalled" unequivocally should not be on this
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:51 (thirteen years ago) link
the one thing about this album is that i think "hell of a life" -> "blame game" -> "lost in the world" is the best closing of any ye album since CD
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:53 (thirteen years ago) link
if you take out the chris rock part of "hell of a life"
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:55 (thirteen years ago) link
er, "blame game"
I agree with that. I've even come around on the Chris Rock skit (I think the first time I heard it, I was so annoyed that I completely missed "Kanye reupholsted my pussy").
― Joe Wasp (DJP), Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:55 (thirteen years ago) link
I also don't mind that Jay-Z sounds like he ran a hard 800 meter dash before recording his verse on "Monster" now
― Joe Wasp (DJP), Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:56 (thirteen years ago) link
i think it's pretty funny but i just don't need to hear it every single time through
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 27 November 2010 03:57 (thirteen years ago) link
and yes that applies to the jay-z verse on "monster"