― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 09:55 (twenty years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:02 (twenty years ago) link
Other point I find interesting is homophobia's relation to masculinity. I've always thought that hip hop is homophobic partly because subdued people try to overcome their situation by emphasizing their personal strength, and with men this often means accentuated masculinity, which can lead to homophobia (and misogyny). However, this probably doesn't apply to Jamaica per se, since homophobia has different connotations there than just emphasizing your manhood. Perhaps Cybele would have more to say on this.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:02 (twenty years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:08 (twenty years ago) link
But listen Mr Oxford don I'm a man on de run and a man on de run is a dangerous one
I ent have no gun i ent have no knife but mugging de Queens English is the story of my life
I don't need no axe to split/ up yu syntax I don't need no hammer to mash/ up yu grammar
I warning you Mr. Oxford don I'm a wanted man and a wanted man is a dangerous one.
Dem accuse me of assault on de Oxford English Dictionary/ imagine a concise peaceful man like me/ dem want me to serve time for inciting rhyme to riot but I tekking it quiet down here on Clapham Common
I'm not a violent man Mr Oxford Don I only armed wit mih human breath but human breath is a dangerous weapon
So mek dem send one big word after me I ent serving no jail sentence I slashing suffix in self-defence I bashing future wit present tense and if necessary
I making de Queens English acessory/to my offence
anglo carribean poet john agard about patois
― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:12 (twenty years ago) link
when hen sb says things like anti-homosexual sentiment itself is pretty much universal it denies the complexity and ambiguity of third gendered, differently gendered, same sex attracted, etc etc.
― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:19 (twenty years ago) link
However, I strongly doubt homophobes notice the difference. Also, generalizations can be useful for educational purposes, so you can prove "homosexuality" has existed throughout the times and in different cultures, even though the term itself and it's current meaning were coined in the 19th century.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:33 (twenty years ago) link
(i think i am probably arguing that at least some of the intensity of crackle between these communitities comes from LIKENESS and thus defensiveness, rather than UNlikeness and hostile puzzlement....)
mark, you are a star! i think you've hit the nail on the head yet again, but i'm going to try to distill this even further. i spent a lot of time in manchester a few years ago and spent much of that time in predominantly gay company. even as a straight man i found the pressure placed on gay people to conform to certain archetypes and toe a certain ideological line crushing, almost all-pervasive and vastly counter-productive. there's a whole nutha thread there but you've got to the root of something really important: that, homophobic or gay, the attitudes and beliefs being discussed here are both forms of orththodoxy...?
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:35 (twenty years ago) link
― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 10:46 (twenty years ago) link
― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link
― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:55 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:02 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:05 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:13 (twenty years ago) link
-- anthony easton (anthonyeasto...), July 8th, 2003.
read the post above yours again, that's what i was referring to... the connection is easier to understand particularly if you read right the way from the top of this thread's resurrection (if you have time). i've gone some way to trying to tease this out, cybele's gone a lot further. it's a bit involved, but it's back to that whole personification thing we were on about. the "chi-chi man" seems to represent a lot more than just being gay.
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:54 (twenty years ago) link
cybele will be able to tell you more about the actual existence of gay communities in jamaica as this is something i know very little about, however, as far as i know being visibly gay is not really an option for the majority on the island. the whole thing i find interesting is the fact that the vast majority of the hatred is not in fact aimed at gay people at all, merely using homophobic terminologies as catchwords for so much more
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:05 (twenty years ago) link
judging by the headline and strap (as based on my possibly inaccurate memory) this scene exists reasonably openly and is militantly determined to continue to enjoy itself despite whatever
however i think some dots now need joining by someone who knows what they're talking about!!
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:17 (twenty years ago) link
Chilling Call to Murder as Music Attacks Gays
Jamaican rights activist's death is officially said to be motivated by robbery, but campaigners point to pop-fueled homophobia by Gary Younge in New York In the heat of January in Jamaica 30,000 people came to the Rebel Salute concert in St. Elizabeth to hear some of the nation's most popular singers deliver a chilling call. With Capleton and Sizzla singing almost exclusively about gay men, the call went out from the stadium:
"Kill dem battybwoys haffi dead, gun shots pon dem ... who want to see dem dead put up his hand" (Kill them, the queers have to die, gun shots in their head ... put up your hand if you want to see them dead.)
Two weeks ago Jamaica's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson, was murdered at his home. Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-FLAG), was found with multiple stab wounds to his neck and his face and his throat cut.
With his safe missing and his room ransacked, the police insist that it was a robbery and have one person in custody. Jamaica's gay activists and human rights campaigners are not so sure. They fear Mr Williamson could have been targeted because of his sexual orientation.
"Given the climate that exists in Jamaica there is high possibility that Brian's murder is a hate related crime and we don't want the police to rule that out," said a representative of J-FLAG, who did not wish to be named for fear of reprisals. Brian was one of the few people who felt comfortable enough to go public with his homosexuality."
Indeed, last May Mr Williamson wrote to the national newspaper, the Jamaica Observer, explaining: "We who are homosexuals are seen as 'the devil's own children' and passed by on the other side of the street or beaten to death by our fellow citizens."
The hatred has followed him to the grave. "We've had one or two well wishers from the straight community," said the J-FLAG representative. "But many more have said things like: 'This is what you get for sin' or 'we should get them one by one.'"
Human rights campaigners say that while the precise motive of Mr Williamson's killers may never be known, his death provides a timely opportunity for the government to address the problem. "We have called on the Jamaican authorities to use this time to make a public statement condemning homophobia and calling for people to respect the rights of lesbian and gay men," said Michael Heflin, of Amnesty International in the United States.
This is not likely to happen soon. From Buju Banton's Boom Boom Bye Bye, which threatened gay men with a "gunshot in ah head", to Beenie Man's "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays", Jamaica's popular music scene is steeped in homophobia. Concern that his lyrics could incite violence against gays and activists led to the cancellation of a concert by Beenie Man in London earlier this week.
But songs are not the only place where homophobia is blatant. At a state level, article 76 of the nation's offences against the person act criminalizes the "abominable crime of buggery" with up to 10 years imprisonment, while article 79 punishes any act of physical intimacy between men in public or private with up to two years in jail and the possibility of hard labor.
A recent poll showed 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to any move to legalize homosexual relations. And while the police do not condone homophobic violence, they are often unsympathetic to the victims.
One man described to J-FLAG how six men blocked a road in order to beat up a local gay man. "The crowd stood around watching, chanting 'Battyman, battyman, battyman', before gathering around him as he lay on the sidewalk. The crowd punched and kicked him. They threw garbage on him, all the while shouting 'Battyman, battyman'. They then dragged him down the road for half a kilometer ... The crowd was saying 'Give him to us! Let us kill him! He's a battyman'."
At least five gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia. "I had to leave because of the pressure," said one 26-year-old Jamaican who settled in Britain in 2000 and asked to remain anonymous. "I had been beaten up and chased and the police would not help you. Once I went to hospital after I was badly beaten up and they refused to treat me."
Few can agree on the source of such homophobia. But most agree the church plays a crucial role. "Evangelical Christianity is very strong, and there is a prudishness and hypocrisy that comes with that," said a representative of J-FLAG. "They ignore the part that says don't have sex out of wedlock and focus on gays."
Others claim the sheer geographical size of islands in the Caribbean makes them more socially conservative. "So long as you are stuck living close to your family then you never really get the space to make the kind of choices about your life that will challenge the values and practices you've been brought up with," said Erin Greene, a member of the Rainbow Alliance of the nearby Bahamas.
The particularly violent expression homophobia has found in Jamaica, most agree, reflects a particularly violent society. In 2002 1,045 people were murdered, and according to Amnesty International, Jamaica has the highest number of police killings per capita in the world. In the national paper, the Daily Gleaner, the murder count is updated daily, between the weather forecast and the lottery numbers.
"The worst thing is when you see children of three or four singing songs about killing the Chi Chi [gay] man," said one J-FLAG representative. "They are learning from an early age that violence against gay people is acceptable."
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004
― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 26 June 2004 13:02 (nineteen years ago) link
― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 26 June 2004 13:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 17 July 2004 01:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― comme personne (common_person), Monday, 6 September 2004 15:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― keith m (keithmcl), Monday, 6 September 2004 19:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― Nasty, Monday, 13 September 2004 12:06 (nineteen years ago) link
― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 13 September 2004 13:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Monday, 13 September 2004 13:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― nasty, Monday, 13 September 2004 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link
― Paul Eater (eater), Monday, 13 September 2004 13:29 (nineteen years ago) link
― B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Monday, 13 September 2004 13:30 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Monday, 13 September 2004 14:11 (nineteen years ago) link
seriously, what are its redeeming qualities, i'd really like to know?
― reo, Sunday, 26 September 2004 19:40 (nineteen years ago) link
is it lil' jon shouting in an usher song that really grabs a hold onto your heart strings or what!?
― reo, Sunday, 26 September 2004 19:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 26 September 2004 19:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 26 September 2004 20:18 (nineteen years ago) link
Dancehall Fans Against Homophobia is a petition-based campaign that rejects homophobic lyrics, and also rejects the recent attacks on dancehall and reggae by an over-zealous and ill-informed media.
― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:08 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Monday, 31 January 2005 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:34 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stevem On X (blueski), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:37 (nineteen years ago) link
ties in with this thread
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 31 January 2005 16:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Monday, 31 January 2005 16:53 (nineteen years ago) link
it must be nice to be a straight man and not actually affected by homophobia!
― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link
― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 1 February 2005 16:56 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:02 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:03 (nineteen years ago) link
I find your division of dancehall fans into the authentic real Jamaicans and the inauthentic non-Jamaicans risible.
― Damien P., Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:17 (nineteen years ago) link
― stelfox, Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:27 (nineteen years ago) link
50-odd people and a website won't change the world, no. But cumulative outside pressure, particularly on a commercial enterprise such as the making and selling of music, has been known to have some effect. It's one strategy to be used in concert with others.
― Damien P., Tuesday, 1 February 2005 17:32 (nineteen years ago) link