classic Wu-Tang solo run poll

fwiw I never get tired of dudes rapping about how stoned they are, to me that's just fun. it's just...like...I smoked a fair amount of crack in my wild days. you know what exactly ZERO crack slingers I knew were? cool. or successful. or rich. or well-liked. they were pretty much all scumbags. the crack dealer big-player persona who doesn't sell in his own neighborhood and holds to an ethical code which he would sooner die than violate , afaik, is fiction. it's decent fiction, sometimes, but it's been done to death at this point, and it can't be defended on the "that's reality" point in my opinion. I'll always listen to Ghost telling dope stories, because his storytelling is fucking incredible. biggie's before-you-knew-me stuff is obviously all-time. but for the most part, to tell an interesting crack dealer story at this point, that's how good a writer you'd have to be: ghostface level. biggie level. not a lot of cats will even be on that level for five minutes in their lives imo so maybe scoping out new territory wouldn't go amiss

its not like im coming up w/ some set rockist standards for 'sounds dated' 'sounds timeless,' its just how i hear the music & then describe my reactions

and when you use broad generalizations about how people are moving from hyperbolic wordplay to more consistent "personas" (as if those were inherently opposed), people are gonna try to unpack them and probably criticize them

and as for the idea that rappers are more "well drawn characters" now...yeah, I'm not seeing it.

― da croupier, Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:05 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im saying theyre more constructed now. & that as time goes on, those constructs require becoming more & more well crafted -- its like an arms race thing

of course they're broad generalizations! youre talking about an art form w/ thousands of performers

think of it like this -- there are dudes doing wordplay
those guys become more marginal as time goes on
because of that marginalization, older artists that may have inspired them may seem less significant to the overall arc of history
artists who may have unintentionally anticipated these broader changes seem more prescient, their reputations more intact

my observation is that folks who recognized that rap was turning towards more constructed personas, that the 'artfulness' of rap was no longer all about wordplay, that it was about developing into consistent characters & fleshing those out & making those artfully realistic, were the ones who have aged better

deej I would be willing to buy the argument that within the (sub-)genre of coke rap (or whatever-rap), as defined by its broad generic constraints, there are dudes today who are as innovative and awesome and crucial as anyone ever, and that they have probably gotten to that point by developing stories and characters and shedding 'foreign elements' that had roots in the pre-coke-rap era like goofy similes or whatever -- but I absolutely categorically refuse to admit that this says something about "rap" as a whole, especially when it has developed parallel to the mainstream rap scene that recently gave us GROCERY BAG

imo, shouty 'you can call me sire!' rap doesnt anticipate the kind of turn rap would take the way rakim's persona & personality would on 'paid in full'

COKE RAP IS NOT A SUBGENRE OR GENRE

IT IS A CONSTRUCT Of A HANDFUL OF RAP WRITERS WHO REALLY likED THE CLIPSE & oVERRATED THE NEPTUNES

rakim had a different flow, but i'm pretty sure he thought you could call him sire

think of it like this -- there are dudes doing wordplay
those guys become more marginal as time goes on

finding it a little ironic you think I'm reductive about rap when you're on this "wordplay is out, real is in!" tip

deej I would be willing to buy the argument that within the (sub-)genre of coke rap (or whatever-rap), as defined by its broad generic constraints, there are dudes today who are as innovative and awesome and crucial as anyone ever, and that they have probably gotten to that point by developing stories and characters and shedding 'foreign elements' that had roots in the pre-coke-rap era like goofy similes or whatever -- but I absolutely categorically refuse to admit that this says something about "rap" as a whole, especially when it has developed parallel to the mainstream rap scene that recently gave us GROCERY BAG

― rmde and dangerous (bernard snowy), Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:13 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

but on the rest of your point, yeah there's been a recent shift in this direction -- my hypothesis would be that this is a temporary shift towards corny similies (& drake's recent "i dont rap like that any more its played out" thing suggests i might be right) that was a result of lil wayne's huge popularity. obv it could shift punchline rappers back into fashion -- but you're still talking about dudes w/in the vein of lil wayne which is (gasp) "coke rap" (which doesnt really exist but i assume you mean the stuff that came out of cash money would qualify in your imaginary genre)

finding it a little ironic you think I'm reductive about rap when you're on this "wordplay is out, real is in!" tip

― da croupier, Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:17 PM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you think GZA style wordplay is really hot right now?

Waka isnt one of the most popular rappers out right now?

rakim had a different flow, but i'm pretty sure he thought you could call him sire

― da croupier, Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:16 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

... and yet he would never say it in a corny way like that

"The word 'precursor' is indispensable to the vocabulary of criticism, but one must try to purify it from any connotation of polemic or rivalry. The fact is that each writer creates his precursors. His work modifies our conception of the past, as it will modify the future."

croupier i know this theory doesnt fit into your bias towards music that is un-selfaware and silly (when not performed by the electric 6) but i dont think im really saying anything radical here

"The word 'precursor' is indispensable to the vocabulary of criticism, but one must try to purify it from any connotation of polemic or rivalry. The fact is that each writer creates his precursors. His work modifies our conception of the past, as it will modify the future."

― rmde and dangerous (bernard snowy), Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:19 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hey im totally flexible here!! who knows what could happen. im just HYPOTHESIZING

i remember when metal dudes used to get all mad and tell you "speed metal" wasn't a genre

you guys, dont you realize sean f & nick sylvester basically created 'coke rap' in a pfork staffboard lab back in '06

... and yet he would never say it in a corny way like that

i know you're on this "hey it's all subjective" thing, but to act like there's a demonstrative difference between Run-DMC saying "sucker MCs should call me sire" and Rakim's "I melted microphones instead of cones of ice cream" is pretty absurd

how else are we supposed to evaluate art? i hear a pretty qualitative difference between those two quotes. if you dont think one sounds cornier than the other then, ok, you dont. but i think its pretty self-evident, even if subjective

anyway im going to dinner yall have fun play nice

are you saying rakim is just less corny? cuz you previously said shouty 'you can call me sire!' rap doesnt anticipate the kind of turn rap would take the way rakim's persona & personality would on 'paid in full' and well, both were braggarts!

you guys, dont you realize sean f & nick sylvester basically created 'coke rap' in a pfork staffboard lab back in '06

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/10/12/arts/13sann.1.184.jpg

are you saying rakim is just less corny? cuz you previously said shouty 'you can call me sire!' rap doesnt anticipate the kind of turn rap would take the way rakim's persona & personality would on 'paid in full' and well, both were braggarts!

― da croupier, Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:26 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what does bragging have to do w/ this?

couldnt resist a refresh

i hear a pretty qualitative difference between those two quotes.

the thing is this: if you can't state what that qualitative difference is in formal terms, then you oughtn't assert a difference; you should just say that you prefer one to the other. imo.

what does bragging have to do w/ this?

so by "persona & personality" i guess you mean flow and not persona & personality

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/10/12/arts/13sann.1.184.jpg

― drawl the whine (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:27 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thats a t shirt not a genre

RIP the Luniz Condom genre of Sex Rap

so by "persona & personality" i guess you mean flow and not persona & personality

― da croupier, Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:29 PM (4 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

flow is a part of personality -- this is so obvious that i swear you are trolling

aesthetics are a part of personality

you're right deej

hardly anybody rapping about dealing coke

it's more a blown out of proportion by the media thing

i give up

i remember reading a like four-page story on coke-rap in XXL

i love the idea that the notion of "coke rap" was started by sylvester & sean f on the pfork staff board -- it's very tea party

xp @ deep YOU WERE THE GUY USING ONE DUDE'S FORMER-CRACK-BABY STATUS FOR POINTS ON A THREAD a few minutes ago, btw

seriously, if you can't see how the rapper who rapped smooth and fast about how great he was and the rappers who rapped slow and loud about how great they were share similar "personas & personality"...fine.

i hope shakey can appreciate a conspiracy theory of this level

xp @ deep

very unfortunate typo

dude I'm pretty sure you know what I mean by "coke rap". but maybe you don't? so I dunno, lemme try to spell out what bugs me about this whole conversation:

- You think GZA's style sounds played-out; other people don't. So far, no problem.
- You attribute this to his use of certain forms of 'wordplay' which have since fallen out of fashion.
- You attribute this falling-out-of-fashion to an increased emphasis on 'persona/character'.
- You posit that rappers who never succumbed to the temptations of wordplay were objectively better ("timeless") thanks to their uncanny foresight into the future evolution of rap, or what-the-fuck-ever.
- Numerous people protest that both wordplay and persona have been part of rap from the start; that it's pretty silly to talk about an overall "direction" of something which continues to evolve and change; that you're using a narrow criterion of 'persona' that tautologically asserts the superiority of -- surprise! -- the very same stylistic devices that rappers with those personas tend to have used to construct them, while consigning everything else to some realm of naive outdated 'character-breaking' shit; and probably some other arguments, because JESUS MAN

(many xposts, obv)

and I might be talkin' to a dude who's not even here anymore

oh don't worry, he'll be back

should i put out the gucci call?

if the "paper planes" argument taught us anything, it's that a little dinner is not gonna come in between a depressingly long argument b/w deej & miccio

haha i said i'm done! should have learned from that that trying to unpack his terminology just gets you a lot of "hey it's all subjective man" jive. Apologies to everybody that just wanted to rank the wu debuts

"there's no such thing as a crime novel - crime is an element in many novels, but to then group all which adhere to some fairly strict constraints of tone & style & theme under the term 'crime novels' is just insane"

I have had to come back and refresh this thread three times before getting a chance to say but

So yeah, Meth has three platinum albums whereas Ghost has only one (Ironman).

Four if you count Blackout! That discography is also really interesting to note how generous Meth has been about appearing on almost any other Clan solo album that wants him, which has an additional effect of increasing his “brand awareness,” as a business-minded coke dealer might say

i never even thought GZA was especially cokey. dude always talked about mind elevation and dickhead record labels are iirc