Taking Sides: Stax Or Motown

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (57 of them)
That bit about Smokey and H-D-H should say "any sixties rock band". I think rock's caught up a little since. ;)

Tom, Monday, 9 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

black vs white:

Stax has more soul in the singing, but also plenty plenty country.

Motown's rhythm is far more clattery and loud and urban-'latin'- unwhite: and I personally wouldn't want to call contest between the blacknuss in the respective basslines (J.Jamerson was a jazzer, tho he plays like himself alone). Motown also employed the best loudest disc- cutters (Lennon and Townshend were always complaining to UK disc- cutters that the sound in the groove they were getting was so WEEDY compared to Motown's).

mark s, Monday, 9 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

My knowledge of this period depends on how the history’s curated to me. I’m 20 years too young to have bought the singles as they came out – I know both labels from the radio and from re-issues.

Motown has damaged the reputation of its own catalogue. All it’s artists’ reputations are still under the company's control and the company has very strong views about which artist are favoured (compare the reverence accorded to Diana Ross to the treatment of Smokey Robinson). The compilations put out by Motown are tacky cash-ins poorly organised. Even now after all this time Motown treats the "product" as disposable.

Stax - way less successful but emblematic of those southern sounds - is a well managed history - easier of course because there's far less of it. Stax records have gravitas. The reissues are packaged to be soulful (original sleeves, tasteful compilations) in contrast to Motown’s K-tel inspired compilations. Even very minor Stax figures like Booker T continue to be valued as part of the lineage. Some way smaller than Motown, that Stax can even be pitched into this battle of Tom’s is a triumph of curating. It’s an absurd contest – Motown is a colossal label; Stax simply symbolises a whole southern soul approach – the very greatest records of this sound weren’t even on the label (Aretha especially).

So if I had to choose? As an infant I heard Motown on the radio every day. I know most of the big singles like nursery rhymes. Until recently I haven’t wanted to own many of them. Stax records were at one point in my life a big, exciting discovery – The Staple Singers were a massive teenage crush. In truth there simply isn’t enough material on Stax to give up Motown for it. If on the other hand the contest was stretched to include Atlantic, King and Hi (Aretha, James Brown, Al Green for example) then it might be a fairer contest – gospel soul versus pop soul.

Guy, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Booker T... minor?

I'll have to take Stax, just in response to that comment. But otherwise, motown would win. For Smokey Robinson's "Really Got A Hold On Me" alone.

Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Surely compared to a James Brown, Booker T has to be minor... Minor is not perjorative - some of my best friends etc etc

Guy, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Stax v. Motown... is there a difference? Christ, what next, the great Steps v. S Club 7 dialectic?

Pihkal Boy, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

s club

gareth, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I'm sure you can tell the difference between Poptones and Chemikal Underground.

And everyone knows that Steps is just plain cooler than S Club 7...

Nicole, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

You can always talk about that here.

Tom, Tuesday, 10 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Stax for me. Booker T/Steve Cropper.

Since I was a hippie in high school, Motown was way too mainstream. It's not now though.

Joseph Wasko, Friday, 13 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

five months pass...
As someone noted, this isn't exactly a fair competition. Motown had a heavy roster of artists, and it's just asking too much to let them all go, even if you prefer the Stax/Volt sound. One thing that bugs me: Everyone says, "Well, I like Stax, but Motown had that broad appeal didn't it?" Well, yeah, but so what? Since when is "appeal" a cardinal virtue? What about your own opinion?

Speaking of which, I'd take Stax/Volt any day. Simply because I don't _like_ most of the songs written by Phil Spector, or his compatriots.

Jack Redelfs, Saturday, 29 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Any Philadelphia International fans in here? Were Gamble/Huff more indebted to Motown or to Stax?

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Saturday, 29 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

four years pass...
Motown. But really ... REVIVE!

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 14 November 2005 06:05 (eighteen years ago) link

hi k/l

stockholm cindy is in your extended network (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 November 2005 06:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey man. Sorry, I'd say Stax -- it's the sound and the wild-man soul singing by Otis Redding, Sam and Dave, etc. I also just like the story I have in my mind about Stax as this ragtag, little-engine-that-could label where they used all the same musicians on every album, wrote shit last minute in the studio, etc. And I'm a big fan of the songwriting of Hayes/Porter.

Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 14 November 2005 06:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey guys.

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 14 November 2005 06:33 (eighteen years ago) link

I remember buying into the whole Stax critique of Motown way back when- "They make their records from a switchboard" - but I eventually got over it.

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 14 November 2005 06:49 (eighteen years ago) link

If we're comparing the highlights of the labels - e.g. trying to compare something like http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000025AKZ.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg with something like http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QX5I.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg then I'll go with Stax / Volt / Atlantic every time.

Otoh if we're trying to weigh (Booker T & The MG's, Ray Charles, The Coasters, The Drifters, Aretha Franklin, Isaac Hayes, Ben E King, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, Sam & Dave and Percy Sledge) against (The Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, The Isley Brothers, The Jacksons, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas, Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross & The Supremes, The Temptations and Stevie Wonder) then I've probably got to come down in favour of Motown.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 14 November 2005 10:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Stax was my favorite label for many years. And lsitening to the radio as a kid in the 60s Motown was slightly (haha)overexposed while living in the Detroit area a decade later sealed the deal. Motown = The Big Chillsdtk UGH! Now upon reflection I'd say Motown, if nothing else because their run extended well into the 70s and even the early 80s (I mean good records on the Motown label as opposed to classic "Motown" records from the old hit factory). And the cliched stuff actually sounds great now cause it's less exposed. Jamerson & Benjamin, Barrett Strong "Money That's What I Want" Shorty Long singing "Function at the Junction" magic associations. Either the names give you goosebumps or they don't.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 14 November 2005 11:46 (eighteen years ago) link

nine months pass...
Seems to me that 1960 stax was trying to recapture the chart action of Carla Thomas's Gee Whiz, whereas 59/60 Motown was only half heartedly trying to recapture Barrett Strong's Money. Motown was a bit more shooting in the dark for a while aiming every direction while Stax slowly moved in one direction to find their sound.

Only after The Miracles' Shop Around and Mary Wells success proved to be the formula did Motown relegate Barett Strong, Lamont Dozier, and The Hollands as writers (which is a mixed bag because I really like Eddie Holland's records as much as I like his writing).

Needless to say, Stax moved beyond that late 50's ballad sound and found success based around The Memphis Horns and Booker T & The MG's...Motown's echo chamber combined with Benny Benjamin's loose fills gave contrast to the horn heavy Stax once Holland/Dozier/Holland + Funk Brothers was the formula.

James Jammerson is a subject unto himself. Good God.

But aside from the hits/mid 60's, the early stuff form both were great and very very different from one another.

PappaWheelie, Olives, Red Wine, Coffee, Scotch, and Me (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 16:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Motown. Better songs, better harmonies, and actually a more identifiable style.

Stax had a great rhythm section and (like Motown) several excellent singers, but the song material didn't hold up.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 29 August 2006 20:12 (eighteen years ago) link

as usual, the geir is so wildly off, he nearly transcends the whole TS thing. "more identifiable style" is not true, altho after '68 it's obvious stax records were farmed out more. "song material" doesn't hold up, yeah geir, like "dock of the bay," "raise your hand," "mini-skirt minnie" and about a hundred others aren't so good, as opposed to the many, many bad motown covers of white-people shit. "better harmonies," what does that mean, geir? the singers harmonized better, the songs were more harmonically interesting, what? define your terms.

actually, i really call it a tie. they were both great factories and i can't see any real difference in quality, except that stax never did a "city of angels," which is the greatest album ever made. (except for genesis' "foxtrot," of course.)

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 03:17 (eighteen years ago) link

two years pass...

Stax v. Motown... is there a difference? Christ, what next, the great Steps v. S Club 7 dialectic?

― Pihkal Boy, Monday, April 9, 2001 8:00 PM (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

harry s tfuman (and what), Saturday, 21 February 2009 20:04 (fifteen years ago) link

five months pass...

Yes there is a difference. Stax is grimier and darker. Spontaneous. Motown more processed and thought out. Motown dictatorship- Stax a democracy (cept maybe in the last few years) Staxers could choose their own clothes. More about individuality as opposed to the production line from Motown. Stax wins.

This is my impresssion.

Hinklepicker, Wednesday, 12 August 2009 11:18 (fifteen years ago) link

two years pass...

Thread of missing Bob Babbitt and Duck Dunn.

Just now wanted to hear "Ball of Confusion" for some reason. Spotify led me to Motown Complete Number 1's. As I listened I realized that it was one of Bob's signature tunes and then the next tracks up were "Signed, Sealed, Delivered," "War" and "The Tears Of A Clown," which were all his too. Didn't react strongly to the news when I heard about him passing, I guess now is the delayed reaction hitting.

My Elusive Memes (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 20 July 2012 00:43 (twelve years ago) link

Is this thread about rockism?

Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 20 July 2012 00:47 (twelve years ago) link

Probably. On the off campus Motown side, that service does not have a decent version of BB's masterwork "Band of Gold," only some remix rerecords. Finally, I had never known or had forgotten he had played on "Smiling Faces Sometimes" and all those Spinners records.

My Elusive Memes (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 20 July 2012 00:52 (twelve years ago) link

three years pass...

Just bumping this thread to say that the new William Bell album, released on Stax (whatever that means in 2016), is very nearly as good as his original Stax albums.

Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Thursday, 7 July 2016 01:42 (eight years ago) link

Some good songs on it and his voice is still strong, although on one number he sounds kinda like Van Morrison (I forget the title of that one).

curmudgeon, Thursday, 7 July 2016 18:03 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Been listening to the new William Bell one again. Very good, despite my minor nitpicks.

curmudgeon, Monday, 25 July 2016 17:14 (eight years ago) link

four months pass...

One of Bell's better new songs is nominated for a Grammy

Best Traditional R&B Performance:

"The Three Of Me" — William Bell

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 19:23 (seven years ago) link

^_^

Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Wednesday, 7 December 2016 20:20 (seven years ago) link

two years pass...

Came across this old RIP/Remembrance thread about Stax/Ardent engineer Ron Capone, a link to which I am placing here: https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=11362.0

Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 17 December 2018 00:39 (five years ago) link

RIP Ron Capone. I don't know much about him, but I'm currently working my way through the Stax Singles box set in chronological order, picking out my favorites, and the consistent warm sound makes it a comfortable task.

Karl Malone, Monday, 17 December 2018 00:41 (five years ago) link

He’s been dead for over a decade, just thought of him because of his association with James Burton, who was super-tight with Joe Osborn, who did just pass, and played on tons of records although no Memphis recordings I am aware of.

Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 17 December 2018 01:06 (five years ago) link

I saw a Marshall Crenshaw email note to Bob Lefsetz that mentioned bass player and one time guitarist Joe Osborn's death. His little obit didn't mention any Memphis work.

curmudgeon, Monday, 17 December 2018 03:43 (five years ago) link

Yes, these guys had a Shreveport connection, not a Memphis connection.

Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 17 December 2018 10:43 (five years ago) link

Did Charles Lloyd play on any Stax releases? Saw a William Bell interview where he said they used to hang together.

curmudgeon, Monday, 17 December 2018 16:28 (five years ago) link

three years pass...

https://www.soulcountry.net/post/william-bell-s-back-to-bring-soul-home

Profile of now 83-years old William Bell

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 16 November 2022 21:05 (one year ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.