But of course it was a different world back on Jan. 1, 2002.
― President Keyes, Saturday, 24 July 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link
I've not been part of the endless discussion of the canon around here, but I've been the white male crit obsessive whatever my whole life.
It's interesting that the criticisms of the current smackdown survivor series poll involves knocking boring white guy Mojo/Rolling Stone choices, when the roots of the game seemed based on the idea "Wow people around here really like Steely Dan and Hall & Oates. What other bands (some being seemingly non-fogey canon) get that kind of love and might be ILM canon, lets have a war."
A real discussion of the old rock crit guy canon might have contained Smokey Robinson, The Clash, Chuck Berry and Sly & the Family Stone. It probably wouldn't have left out Hank Williams and Bob Marley or Muddy Waters and other people from other genres.
See all the books written and edited by Dave Marsh, Greil Marcus, Ben-Fong Torres or whoever.
Other potential canons. (yardbirds, hendrix, zeppelin, cream, sabbath) (Link Wray, the Doors, The Cramps, MC5, Radio Birdman) (Joni Mitchell, Linda Rondstadt, Aretha Franklin, Dusty Springfield) (Bee Gees, Elton John, Billy Joel, Lionel Ritchie, Shania Twain) (Garth Brooks, Frank Sinatra, Rudy Vallee, George Michael) (Guns n' Roses, Teena Marie, Expose, Bang Tango, Jimmy Castor)
what I'm trying to say is, I'm not sure what canon means. I should look it up.
― making posts (Zachary Taylor), Saturday, 24 July 2010 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Even more Beatles bashing. Yawn......
― Tied Up In Geir (Geir Hongro), Saturday, 24 July 2010 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link
THREADKILLAH
― Captain Ostensible (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 25 July 2010 15:05 (thirteen years ago) link
Are there any bad albums in the "canon"? Apart from sgt peppers obviously.
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link
depends what the/your "canon" is, and whether it contains any albums you dislike.
― sometimes all it takes is a healthy dose of continental indiepop (tomofthenest), Sunday, 25 July 2010 16:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Yeah, but disliking something that isn't to my taste, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad . Sgt Peppers is my least fave Beatles album, but since millions of others rate it, am I wrong for disliking it? (and it contains 2 of my fave Beatles songs). The canon is there because so many people rate an album highly. The canon isn't just contributed to by the critics, it's the public too surely? Would anyone really rather trust the buying public more than critics? (not trusting either is perfectly fair I suppose).
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 16:16 (thirteen years ago) link
the canon is just the subset of music in which the most people's ideas of musical importance overlap
― ciderpress, Sunday, 25 July 2010 16:21 (thirteen years ago) link
Every time somebody uses a phrase like "most people" I end up wanting statistical back-up
― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 25 July 2010 16:33 (thirteen years ago) link
Gender and the musical canon By Marcia J. Citron
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 16:45 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't agree with Ronan's original assumption that people force themselves to like the classics. Unlike many other canons (cinema, literature, jazz) the pop/rock one is remarkably accessible - there's not a lot of hard work involved.
When I was a teenager I was stubbornly anti-canon, based more on my dislike of classic-rock bores at school (and their hatred of synth-pop, dance music, hip hop, etc) than anything. Then my tastes started broadening and I started checking out a lot of classic albums that appeared on all-time lists (UK ones rather than US), and I was surprised how easy to love they were. You don't have to force yourself to like the Beatles, or Stevie Wonder, or the Byrds. Some I didn't take to (Springsteen, Steely Dan, the Doors) but I seem to remember that only one (Trout Mask Replica) was really "difficult" and would have involved some degree of pretending to like it. Where the imbalance comes in is feeling compelled to have an opinion either way on, say, the Stones, whereas music fans are not expected to engage with Mobb Deep or Orbital on any level at all. But, as Tom said EIGHT YEARS AGO it's a starter kit, that's all.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link
When you're younger, the canon is a great way to discover new things that aren't "current" and in my case, I kept digging & digging (and I still do so). But yes, I the majority of stuff in a "mojo canon" is very accessible. But it's no big deal if you dont like it. Noones going to care that i could never get into Astral Weeks or Sgt Peppers. I got into funk and jazz and krautrock instead.
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Some people cant get into the stuff in a rock canon, some cant get into chart music. Does it really matter? I think if anyone makes an attempt to listen outwith their comfort zone, they should be lauded, even if they dont like it. Maybe in 10 years time it might click for them. 10 years ago i hated black metal, now I like some of it (classic stuff and the arty kind). That is not the only example either. As i get older i give less of a fuck about the canon, but im still glad I checked a lot of it out.
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link
Astral Weeks, there's another one I never got. What I find weird is when people (including people on ILM) get anguished about much-loved albums, old or new, and keep asking "What am I missing?" Nothing. Maybe you'll get into it one day, maybe you never will - so what? These records aren't going to disappear. If at the age of 50 or whatever I suddenly fall in love with Astral Weeks or Trout Mask Replica or the fucking Doors, then great - I just can't see not liking Record X ever being a source of angst.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link
And if you dont like astral weeks, its not like you cant escape from hearing it! You dont hear it on the radio or on tv. There's no real reason to hate it.
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Oh right, I've basically just said the same as Herman.
If you don't see taste as a battleground before the age of 20 you're missing the point. If you still see taste as a battleground after the age of 30 you're missing the point.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link
I got more open-minded after 30. I listen to far heavier (and far weirder) shit than I listened to before. I just like hearing new things, but I still love all the grunge stuff I was into at 18, maybe it was because it got me into music? I dunno, but at about 23/24 i read about coltrane and krautrock in Mojo. Britpop/nu-metal was in full swing by then so the NME/Melody Maker/Kerrang didn't speak to me as much anymore, so I went looking, this was pre-internet, so believe me, the canon lists in magazines were bloody helpful. If you dont like a rock canon, check out other genre canons. If you avoid music because its "canon" then I think that silly, but if you dont like it, enjoy what you like!
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link
i don't like astral weeks or sgt. pepper's, either.
so there, cannon.
― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 25 July 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
lets fire them out of a cannon!
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link
let's fire most of the cannon out of a cannon.
what discs have entered the cannon since, perhaps, kid a at the beginning of the decade? american idiot (oy vey)?
― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 25 July 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link
not even sure kid a is in. that would back it up to, perhaps, in utero and/or ok computer?
― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 25 July 2010 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link
If we're using MOJO here is the 1996 Readers Top 100 albums Of All Time
but that seems to be the last time they did it, I think mojo has more younger readers now, so I'm sure lots more stuff may be in it now.
Rolling stone: Rolling Stone Readers Top 100 Albums from 2002
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link
The Rolling Stone Top 500 Albums(December 2003)
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 25 July 2010 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link
pretty sure it's safe to say Kid A is in the cannon
― markers, Sunday, 25 July 2010 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link
canon, rather
The most recent MOJO I have in my reading pile has a gigantic article on Captain Beefheart (and he is on the cover) and another on Syd Barrett. Sure, it focusses too much on dated stuff, but Beefheart is hardly freaking boring old canon farty.
― Gumbercules (Trayce), Monday, 26 July 2010 00:33 (thirteen years ago) link
That 500 Albums Rolling Stone list released 7-8 years ago was my springboard into getting into music.
― musicfanatic, Monday, 26 July 2010 00:50 (thirteen years ago) link
do you still like the albums from it that you liked then?
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 26 July 2010 15:10 (thirteen years ago) link
There was a Rolling Stone Top 100 albums of the last 20 years list in 1987 that was my buying guide for awhile back then. I can't find it anywhere now though.
― President Keyes, Monday, 26 July 2010 15:16 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/rstone.html
Actually, here it is (3rd list from the top)
― President Keyes, Monday, 26 July 2010 15:19 (thirteen years ago) link
When I was a kid, we didn't have a canon! It was bad to bring rock into the classroom.
― Shut Up or I'll Tell Kenny G You Don't Like His Music (u s steel), Monday, 26 July 2010 15:23 (thirteen years ago) link
The Rolling Stone 80s list on the same web page is horrible. Reminds that me when we talk about "the Mojo/Rolling Stone canon" there's a massive difference between the to mags, and indeed the two countries.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 26 July 2010 15:38 (thirteen years ago) link
president keyes you mean this one? http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/rstone.html#albums
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 26 July 2010 15:39 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah theres always big differences in RS & Mojo. Dave Matthews Band for instance will never get in a Mojo one
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 26 July 2010 15:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Nor would you see this in Mojo:
55. Centrefield - John Fogerty56. Closer - Joy Division
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 26 July 2010 16:01 (thirteen years ago) link
lol! rolling stone is so passe.
― Daniel, Esq., Monday, 26 July 2010 16:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Basically, if this were 20 years ago and RS represented the canon I would be the Lex.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 26 July 2010 16:05 (thirteen years ago) link
im sure a Spin canon will be different to the rolling stone onehttp://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/spinend.htm
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 26 July 2010 17:03 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/spin100.html#SPIN%2020th%20Anniversary%20Special,%20July%202005Spin 100 Greatest Albums 1985-2005
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 26 July 2010 17:04 (thirteen years ago) link
3. Nirvana – Nevermind (Dgc, 1991)
but no Bandwagonesque = LIARS
― Moshy Star (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 July 2010 17:05 (thirteen years ago) link