Hommophobia inna dancehall style...

I guess it might be a case of dancehall sounding so thoroughly exotic to me in all of its elements that I can't easily connect its dramas to the real world, and the bogeymen homosexuals are as unreal and outlandish and cartoonish to me as Elephant Man himself is. This is not a defence of course... I strongly feel that i should be more disturbed than I am.

Russ why should black homophobia be *more* difficult to "get your head round* than white homophobia? Can you in any way justify this comment other than resorting to hackneyed and hopelessly dimwitted "all oppressed people should unite" arguments? (Yeah, maybe they should but they don't, you know - it just doesn't happen.)
It's true, ethically speaking, this is an incredibly thorny issue for me, as outlined in the pots above, but as someone who won't even recognise the validity of patois, well, you just don't have an awful lot to debate.
And Tim, as ever I can't help but agree with you. Despite being concerned about this issue and making an attempt to understand/rationalise/reconcile my feelings on *any* kind of prejudice with my love of this music, there's something so extreme and *ridiculous* about all the posturing in dancehall that it's just pretty damned difficult to take totally seriously.
Remembering that dancehall is an intensely theatrical and contrived, with deejays taking on the most absurd performance personae etc, makes me think that, to a large degree, these views are merely a front and not to be taken literally. I know this doesn't make it much better, but it does mean that given time they may disappear - however, I wouldn't hold your breath for this.

ding ding ding. The scapegoats (the Hated) find themselves their own scapegoat (Hated). Now they can be the bullies.

rest assured that we all do not

this all comes down to whether one believes homosexuality is a choice or part of our genes. (i believe the latter) obv the equals argt will never apply, but it becomes less problematic to conflate the two in terms of biology. culturally on the other hand...

i don't really know one way or the other and don't care much as both views have their pros and cons. the bottom line is that if it's genetic or a choice, people should have the right to conduct their lives freely and without discrimination. the notion that homosexuality is a sin, has little to do with the nature/nurture debate, it's more about a changing perceived notions of morality - obv when this morality is as heavily tied to religion as in this instance, you start to encounter serious problems...

I do think, though, that the huge rise in clubs/drugs have done a great deal in building bridges between the straight and gay communities.... there's a lot more people who would never have set foot in a gay club or spoken to a gay person before now regul,ars in many clubs I go to - drawn there by the great music and the hassle free atmosphere. And that's a good thing.

in this instance i think it would make comparatively little difference. but this whole issue is all about people judging one another and who is right/whi is wrong? i just find it horrendously condescending that people have kneejerk "homophobia = evil = end of debate" reactions when there is so much inetresting stuff to be discussed here: music, sociology, theology, history etc... that's why i love dancehall - for all its limitations, it's an incredibly rich vein to mine if you're of a mind to.

I think and inclusive society must also be a society in which there is time and space for reflection. When you think about the artificial divisions different groups construct between themselves and others, they really seem arbitrary and ridiculous. Where I live, in Montreal, I have the time and space to think about issues and to evaluate my positions and outlook regarding religion, race, homosexuality, feminism, etc. When I lived in Kingston, I found that a lot of this time and space was taken up by maintaining my level of personal safety. One particularly difficult day, after having been yealled at by dozens of people on the street (I was walking from a church to a bus stop), I called a friend and tried to explain just how hard it was for me to be in Kingston. Waking up every day I knew I'd be in for a challenge...I'd psych myself up if I wanted to go and buy a paper or if I had to leave campus.

One of my dread friends there talked to me about how much he wished he could sit down and write about his experiences. I said "Why not?" to which he responded "There's too much noise in my community." Read: I can't sleep because of shootings, I have to bleech (Jamaican for staying up late in order to make sure nothing out of order happens) all night, I have to make money to eke by, there is no time. Ghetto youth and dancehall performers talk often about how they feel "under pressure" (think Super Cat's wicked mid eighties tune). The pressure one feels in a garrison community (like Hope Tavern, August Town, Hermitage, Trenchtown, Seaview Gardens Grant's Pen, Waterhouse, Southside....i.e. the majority of communities in Kingston) removes the time and spcae necessary for reflective thought. Hell, when I first came back I had to keep reminding myself that I didn't have to feel uncomfortable walking around my parent's rural community. Fundamentalist belief and faith is, to me, a reaction to the intense pressure many Kingstonians find themselves under. It provides a sense of comfort and safety...perhaps the way to eliminate homophobia in dancehall (and in Jamaica--and perhaps other southern developing nations) is to slam liberal economic policies--the forces of globalization that have led to the incredible poverty and desperation in so many areas around the world.

Artist: Beenie Man
Song: "Thats Right"
Submitted By: Miss Kalunji
http://www.dancehallarea.com

Intro:
Zo, hey, zagga sing, hey, ziggy zagga zow!
Clap your hands to this, then get ready fi do all of it
Zagga zagga go na na na na na, all rudebwoy wave oonu hands up like this
Alright, cool

Chorus:
A from mi bun chi chi man and we go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi bun hypocrite and we mi bun parasite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

Verse 1:
Cause when we bun chi chi man nuttin nuh wrong
And when we bun lesbian nuttin nuh wrong
Bun a borrow taste and a bite nuttin nuh wrong
Bun Susan from she a sleep wid Sharon
And from yuh know yuh straight let mi see your two hand
Cause yuh nuh mix up inna nuh bangarang
Straight and di narrow road a dat mi deh pon
That he gwaan one leap to destruction, sing this song

Chorus:
A from mi bun chi chi man and mi go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And we go bun hypocrite and we go bun parasite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (Bun Wey!!!)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

Verse 2:
So when mi put a fire pon a few and everybody bawl (That's Right)
Bun a sodemite and everybody bawl (That's Right)
Bun a parasite and everybody bawl (That's Right)
Bun a bwoy wey meet anotha man dung a (Stoplight)
Nuff bwoy sell out fi get a piece a di (Spotlight
Da people dem a bawl and a shout (That's not right)
Give mi one a dem gal rather flop all di (Hot type)
Day and night now mi gal a long time

Chorus:
Cau when mi bun chi chi man and mi go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And we go bun chi chi man and we go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

Verse 3:
Mi bun a bwoy from wey a blow anotha man flute
Person ago nyam cherry and fruit
Caught drop pants inna club a him a don yute
And seh that him a bad that was untrue
A chi chi baboon and chi chi tranquil
Try to send mi court fi get a one suit
But dem waan march and protest discue
Words sound and power mi put dem pon mute
Beenie Man a talk di truth

Chorus:
A when we bun chi chi man and we go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when we bun hypocrite and we go bun parasite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (That's right)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

This grabs at something I have often thought about in larger contexts as well, about how there is a space (or seen to be a space) for people to express or work through questions of reflection and self-study but that there is so much in the way of outside pressure, social stigmatization, stereotyping in general and so forth that can either prevent that space from flourishing or not let that space allowed to be seen for what it is. If I may draw a comparison (and I hope Dan doesn't mind what I'm doing here but I'm sure he agrees), both Dan and I in our teen years in particular were nerdy, had wacked out senses of humor, didn't really approach girls, lost ourselves in music and books and so forth. Thanks to America being what it is, I would have been seen as 'just another teen geek' or the like, but Dan in many peoples' eyes would have been seen first and foremost as an African-American teenager, while that essential part of his personality would either be secondary or simply not addressed at all in favor of limiting stereotypes -- a bit of Invisible Man (Ralph Ellison style) in miniature. Anyway, pardon my interruption and continue...

i don't think we should romanticize conscious roots music, even if we do prefer its lyrical content to that of contemporary dancehall. first of all, conscious music has always struck me as a species of gospel music (even if it rejects Christ etc., the lyrical fixations and overall form owes much to Christian music as The Harder They Come takes some pains to illustrate) and it shares with that genre a certain denseness and monomania when it comes to social commentary. The moralism common to gospel and conscious reggae easily shades over into denunciations of homosexuality--the particular violence with which this ideas is expressed in contemporary dancehall seems part and parcel of the violent quality of that music overall.

As for conscious reggae, I get tired of all the "back to Africa" obsessions (which continue to this day, albeit not making so many appearances on the charts), which begins to ring as hollow as Jews ritualistically saying "next year in Jerusalem" every passover. Now of course Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, and others wrote songs of unusual clarity and incisiveness...and Burning Spear took the religious concerns of Rasta to a sublime, almost abstract plane of loose signifiers... but the majority of conscious reggae is hardly that inspired and if it weren't for the general brilliance of pop production/performance in Jamaica I don't think it would come across as all that profound/meaningful.

Amst surely "back to Africa" is *precisely* a ritualistic thing, a working through of Garveyism into rasta symbolism. 'Hollow' is maybe not the most helpful way to think about it.

I was listening to "Rod Of Correction" the other day. It's an allegorical (only in Jamaica!) PNP election song from the (?72) in which Michael Manley is set up as Joshua, beating Sodom and Gomorrah with his Rod of Correction. I always assume that in the 70s most of the corruption rhetoric was aimed at the West but it occurs to me that it's not far from identifying "Sodomites" as the corrupt forces in Jamica...

I remain fascinated by this and uncomfortable about it.

do these people proseletyse at all? i like this idea of kinda uber-flamboyant billy graham types laying on hands! flippancy aside what exactly do you mean mark?

Other point I find interesting is homophobia's relation to masculinity. I've always thought that hip hop is homophobic partly because subdued people try to overcome their situation by emphasizing their personal strength, and with men this often means accentuated masculinity, which can lead to homophobia (and misogyny). However, this probably doesn't apply to Jamaica per se, since homophobia has different connotations there than just emphasizing your manhood. Perhaps Cybele would have more to say on this.

But listen Mr Oxford don
I'm a man on de run
and a man on de run
is a dangerous one

I ent have no gun
i ent have no knife
but mugging de Queens English
is the story of my life

I don't need no axe
to split/ up yu syntax
I don't need no hammer
to mash/ up yu grammar

I warning you Mr. Oxford don
I'm a wanted man
and a wanted man
is a dangerous one.

Dem accuse me of assault
on de Oxford English Dictionary/
imagine a concise peaceful man like me/
dem want me to serve time
for inciting rhyme to riot
but I tekking it quiet
down here on Clapham Common

I'm not a violent man Mr Oxford Don
I only armed wit mih human breath
but human breath
is a dangerous weapon

So mek dem send one big word after me
I ent serving no jail sentence
I slashing suffix in self-defence
I bashing future wit present tense
and if necessary

I making de Queens English acessory/to my offence

anglo carribean poet john agard about patois

when hen sb says things like anti-homosexual sentiment itself is pretty much universal it denies the complexity and ambiguity of third gendered, differently gendered, same sex attracted, etc etc.

However, I strongly doubt homophobes notice the difference. Also, generalizations can be useful for educational purposes, so you can prove "homosexuality" has existed throughout the times and in different cultures, even though the term itself and it's current meaning were coined in the 19th century.

(i think i am probably arguing that at least some of the intensity of crackle between these communitities comes from LIKENESS and thus defensiveness, rather than UNlikeness and hostile puzzlement....)

mark, you are a star! i think you've hit the nail on the head yet again, but i'm going to try to distill this even further. i spent a lot of time in manchester a few years ago and spent much of that time in predominantly gay company. even as a straight man i found the pressure placed on gay people to conform to certain archetypes and toe a certain ideological line crushing, almost all-pervasive and vastly counter-productive. there's a whole nutha thread there but you've got to the root of something really important: that, homophobic or gay, the attitudes and beliefs being discussed here are both forms of orththodoxy...?