Rolling Teenpop 2006 Thread

Hm, "it's not snow, it's rain coming down"...let it come down, I'm coming clean (well, presumably they don't want it to come down, but recognize it is anyway...hey, the planets align, the rain comes down, the chemicals react, why is this not what I/we expected?). So Aly and AJ are going insane, too ("wash away my sanity"), and I'm wondering where they go with it. Except I'm way more paranoid about it.

Further thoughts on "Not This Year" -- which after a few listens is probably pretty high on a list of best teenpop Xmas songs, the best being "Why Doesn't Santa Like Me?":

Why are they unhappy during Christmas? This is the part that intrigues me and (on paranoid days) makes me nervous. I agree that this song is great, easily better than half of the debut and "Chemicals React," which I still don't really like...one of the great teenpop Xmas singles. Has the holiday been ruined because it's been secularized, schmaltzified? Is this a hop skip and jump away from the War on Christmas?

Um, no (though I think in "real life" maybe the answer for them and their parents is "yes"), that's not it in the song (they're just unhappy, no reasons are really given why), which is why I'm slowly and hesitantly realizing that one thing that makes me "nervous" is that I kinda relate to Aly and AJ. (I'm usually unhappy around Xmas time, too.) So far it doesn't put me in the position of being closer to what (I think) they believe, though "I Am One of Them" come closest to making a political argument that I reject, even if it means misrepresenting my own personal connection to the song (I mean, I watch the same TV they do, see the same "news reports and more," sympathize with their fears). If they were to come out with a song whose message was "I'm alone, I'm afraid, but at least I'm not a monkey," I'd probably reject that, too, even if I identified with the first two parts. But in their songs, they seem to be the first ones to admit they don't really know what they believe.

Writing about Emma Roberts has brought back to mind something I've been stewing over for a while. Take the teen stars who are actors/singers.

Aly Michalka as an actress is so warm and light and funny, but as a singer is the exact opposite: deadly serious, and as far as I can tell not much personality in the vocal or live performances. (She's still a good singer, mind you, as far as I can tell, just a kind of robotic one). Emma Roberts is the same way. Her acting is filled with expressiveness and personality, and yet her singing is lifeless and completely devoid of personality, which is part of the reason I don't care for her album at all. Ashley Tisdale the same way? I dunno, she steals the show in HSM (and also in Zack and Cody), her singing though not great does seem to express some personality.

On the other end, you've got Brie Larson and Miley C, who are great, expressive singers but horrible and wooden as actresses.

Is there something so inherently different about singing and acting that nobody can be lively and fun at both? Closest I can think of is Hilary, tho her singing is fairly wooden itself. Am I missing somebody?

Off the top of my head, Betty Hutton, Gene Kelly, Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Lindsay Lohan, though I suppose Lindsay's the only one pertinent to this thread. I'm not a fan of Streisand's singing style, but it certainly delivers personality. Sinatra has a powerful screen presence, though a limited repertoire. I'm not sure if there's someone who's been absolutely astonishingly great in both acting and singing. (Astaire a great singer, an OK actor; Rogers a great actor, an OK singer.) Maybe there's someone obvious I'm missing. As for Lindsay, she was first rate in Herbie Fully Loaded; her singing hasn't nearly the emotional range of her acting, but it's sure lively. I've no TV, so Hilary's the only other one I've seen act, other than a three-minute clip of Hannah Montana (thought Miley was fine in it, but the clip wasn't really long enough for me to tell). Ricky Nelson was pale in Rio Bravo (Dean Martin was superb); maybe someday I'll run across The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet.

I'd actually think that acting and singing might draw on similar skills, to some extent, so I'm surprised that I can't think of more. I'd call Aly a lively singer, even if "fun" isn't really her thing.

How about this guy?

Item in the Times Sunday Styles section about Alex and Brit Smith, who I swear have been mentioned somewhere before. Anyway:

"Five-and-a-half years later, the twins, 20, have just finished recording a pop album with the producers Dallas Austin and Tricky Stewart. Although they left modeling to focus on songwriting, they still devour fashion."

Blah blah fashion. But, you know, Dallas Austin! Tricky Stewart does not ring a bell.

I mentioned them once on Stylus but didn't go further than a name-drop.

How's Paris Hilton as an actress? Does her show count? I might also nominate Meryl Streep as hypothetically pertinent to the thread, Pauline Kael once classified her as an android, which I took to mean she'd be a good teenpop singer (not astounding, but maybe a bit like fellow lovable android Hilary).

Courtney Love? Madonna (ummm)? The cast of Nashville?

Lohan is a good one. Certainly a lively actress and I see where you're coming from re: the singing.

Pertinent to this thread there's also Jessica Simpson, who doesn't seem to have too terribly much personality either way as far as I'm concerned. Same with Hayden Panettiere.

Jennifer Lopez comes close to having both, though I don't particularly like her as a singer or actress.

Paris is surprisingly "not bad" as an actress, though certainly nothing to write home about.

Reese Witherspoon, maybe, but we'd have to see more of her singing than just Walk the Line. Certainly a lively actress.

Note how all of the good examples Frank is coming up with are people from long ago (Astaire is a really good one. Not a great actor but certainly a fun and lively one.) What happened to the singer/actor in the last 20 years?

i saw house of wax last night, i cannot get paris teh actor out of paris the icon, and so she might have something there (i could never get liza out of liza or judy out of judy, and so is she could find a way to use her iconicness on screen, it might be interesting) (deos he porn movie count)

paris's entire media presence = acting (according to her anyway)

wasn't j-lo v v critically acclaimed as an actress before she launched the singing career? i don't tend to watch films so have never seen either paris or j-lo act though.

Further thoughts on "Not This Year":

Some discussion of the first line, "this Christmas card is so contrived," F.Kog suggested that "being surrounded by real cheer that you can't participate in is more heartbreaking than being surrounded by fake cheer." Which led me to think about how Aly/AJ use banalities and cliches in their songs to bring out ideas that are more disturbing...the "easy" lines (usually in the chorus, in this case in the first verse) act as catalysts to expressing fear, loathing, not knowing, etc. So in "Not This Year" it's very evident that fake Xmas cards are not the real issue...that comes later, acknowledging that it's about seeing sadness "in the mirror," about shouting your unhappiness to the heavens:

"Don't know if you can hear me/ I will speak louder for you/ No more whispering/ Are you listening?"

The way she delivers this line, it's not so much "Are you there God? It's me, Aly," more like "can you hear me now"? This happens right at the end of the album, before a rendition of "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" (bonus track) that sounds almost sarcastic in context. The contrived cards bit (which itself is a contrived idea) is a decoy, they haven't really gotten at what's really bugging them, you have to dig for it a little.

I don't know if anyone else in teenpop does this. Kelly Clarkson goes about as dark but she doesn't conceal the darkness (like in "Sticks and Stones," where being alone and helpless is refuted in the chorus...Aly/AJ unconvincingly assert their "invincibility," another decoy, since invincibility and intense vulnerability are clearly opposed). They face down isolation and unhappiness armed with paper-thin cliches ("we won't let the bullies hurt us!" "we'll do our best to stay on alert for kidnappers!") and it works, sort of, in the sense that Aly and AJ are still "safe" by Disney standards. "Not This Year" is where their contrivances aren't even opposed to the general idea (sometimes you're just unhappy, even on Christmas), they're just weak and obviously not the real issue -- it's a little temper tantrum before they get to the point.

Never seen Seventh Heaven, and I decided not to fly to London to see Chicago.

Bette Midler. Certainly has personality, as both an actor and singer. But she's fairly minor as a pop star, isn't she?

Isaac Hayes! Crucially important in music. Not a major actor, but seems good at it.

Played in the soaps but I've never seen them act: Kylie Minogue, Paulina Rubio, Belinda, Shakira.

I've never seen their acting but they have a good rep: Dwight Yoakam, Ice Cube, Eminem, Courtney Love.

Was good in Down By Law and scads of people consider him one of the age's great vocalists, though I don't: Tom Waits.

Was good in Cider House Rules and always sounds good when I hear him rap but I need to know more of his music: Heavy D.

My problem is that I've really lost touch with movies and TV; somewhere I had to draw the line, and movies and TV lost out. So the modern interplay may be greater than I realize.

Ashlee's work on Seventh Heaven is not good. You're better off for not having seen it. Could just be the material, I don't know.

I think Bette and Fred Astaire are the best examples anybody's gonna come up with.

I guess the modern interplay between singing and acting is more than I have let on, especially in rap, and it seems to be mostly by chance that it doesn't work that way in teen pop (I don't think any of the HSM'ers or Cheetahs apply here). Other than Ice Cube though none of the singer/actors you mentioned are too major as actors. J.Lo. is the only one who comes to mind who is/was massive as a singer and as an actor in the past few years (Hilary to a certain extent).

I actually follow the TV and movies more than the music so perhaps I am underrating some of the singers.

I've sold Brie short as an actress. She's not bad, but not good either, and I still don't think she conveys 1/10th the personality she conveys in her singing or on her blog.

Iggy Pop? Played a convincing obsequious Tom Waits fan in Coffee and Cigarettes. Also relevant to this thread: supporting role in Snow Day, featuring "Another Dumb Blonde" by Hoku on the soundtrack. No one's mentioned David Bowie, Cher, Dolly Parton, Will Smith.

Lovely article on 20 Worst Actors-Turned-Singers. Some choice words about Lindsay and her audience (and Paris in another round).

Seeing an actress like Lindsay Lohan trying to cross into the music world is not a surprise. Hell, acting and lip-synching are practically the same thing. And let’s be honest here, it’s not like she has to fool a bright crowd.

On this clip of her complete desecration of “I Want You to Want Me,” her fans leave well thought-out comments like: “she looks great in make up” “LOV DA SONG…. LOV HER SHE FAB” and “I [heart] whatever the media tells me to [heart]!!!”

if you watch carefully, you can tell she’s lip-synching. You see, when Lohan actually sings, you can hear a very distinct humming noise from the reverberations echoing through the flapping wind sock that constitutes her vaginal walls, which eventually will shake her past-warranty over-stretched turtleneck lips loose in a blaze of vibrating orange fury equitable only to a combination of a giant Georgia O’Keefe painting on acid and Dante’s Inferno. It’s a strange noise, sure, but on the bright side, childbirth should be very easy for her.

When I was a young man and Eddie Cantor and Sophie Tucker were all the rage, a frequent way to present music to the public was through stage shows and revues. So being able to act was an advantage for a singer. This carried over to the Hollywood musical, but basically got wiped out by rock 'n' roll. Although Elvis tried to make it as an actor, his moview were pretty much relegated to the youth audience. And there was a large culture gap between the rock performers and TV. As far as I can tell, the only area where anyone really tried to cross the gap was with teenybopper performers like David Cassidy (whom I've barely heard). I have a feeling that the '90s pulled things back, with a lot of acts appearing as guests on TV shows (I remember Juliana Hatfield on an episode of "My So-Called Life"). But rarely as actors. Teen is the area of potential crossover, but eventually the performer ends up going one way or another, singer or actor.

Does anyone have strong opinions about 30 Seconds to Mars?

I think the prime of the Broadway and Hollywood musical is full of good actors-singers, and I'd be able to rattle them off if the musical were more my thing. Julie Andrews is another name that comes to mind.

I thought the four leads in High School Musical did a good job of acting. Vanessa and Ashley are probably the only two with any shot as singers.

Does Yummy Bingham belong on this thread? I think so. She's 20 now but has a bit of teenpop pedigree as part of girl group Tha' Rayne and as a De La Soul protege.

I listened to about half of her first solo LP last night - which is just out on CD in the UK, but only available as a digital download in the US at present. (According to her Wiki entry her career has been dogged by label and publishing problems.) Very enjoyable bubblecrunk: squelchy synth beats and lush harmony vocals (Yummy harmonising with herself I think) that recalls both En Vogue and Hakan Lidbo's "digital disco" side project, Data 80!

Best track I heard was "One More Chance", which was her last single release in the US and is the first song on her MySpace page. From the intro, you think it's gonna be a bogstandard R&B ballad but then this slow disco beat kicks in and the track really takes off.

The other single, "Come Get It" is also pretty good and has a video, so you can find this on youtube.

i love yummy bingham! i didn't know she had an album out, aaargh r&b release dates in the uk may as well not exist so awful is the promotion. i love her chipmunk voice.

also: finally heard l lohan's 'live for the day' and it's MAGNIFICENT!

Credits on "I Live for the Day": writers Desmond Child, Andreas Carlson, Ethan Mentzer, Ben Romans, produced by Kara DioGuardi and Greg Wells.

(Not 100% certain on the producer credits. I'd think if Child were involved in the writing he might have been involved in the production as well.)(Though not as Wells.)

Desmond Child produced my favorite Ricky Martin song ("Livin' La Vida Loca") and produced at least some of LeAnn Rimes' Twisted Angel, which has the fabulous "No Way Out," though he's not on the writers credits on that one so I don't know if he had anything to do with it. Mentzer and Romans are in Click Five, sort of halfway between a boyband and a rock group; I borrowed their alb from the library several months ago and liked it OK but not wildly, though I didn't really have time to let it sink in. Don't know too much about Andreas Carlson, but he's a co-writer on *NSync's "Bye Bye Bye" and "It's Gonna Be Me" (and probably loads of other stuff; co-wrote and co-produced the so-so "Symptoms of You" on the first Lohan).

Don't hear anything remotely crunk (bubble or otherwise) in Yummy Bingham, but I like her voice; she's not doing the cold diva thing. Beats make a nice shifting slalom course; I may need several listens on MySpace to see if the songs kick in; the melodies may be the weakness.

Andreas Carlsson is huge, I've wanted to make a compilation of some of his stuff...other credits here. He also wrote the only Bratz song I really like, their first single "So Good."

Andreas Carlsson is huge, ex-Cheiron, I've wanted to make a compilation of some of his stuff...other credits here (page isn't loading for me now, not sure if the link still works). He also wrote the only Bratz song I really like, their first single "So Good."

Su-kin, tough-voiced Eve-style, she raps to Evanescence and Queen (or someone covering Queen) and Alanis. Only pretty good so far (and not teenpop except for the fact that Evanescence and Alanis are teenpop relevant), but has potential.

Ah, Wiki or Allmusic or someone had misspelled Carlsson, which is why I had so much trouble finding his credits. I see that he co-wrote "I Want It That Way." Can't get your link to work, though, so I can't say if he's done much I like (other than the BSB, the two *NSync's, and "I Live for the Day").

Here are his credits on ASCAP.

You know, I'm really starting to dig this Jordan Pruitt song "Outside Looking In" a whole lot. Not in contention for one of my favorite songs of the year, but to me the best song in rotation currently on Radio Diz, other than the Hannah Montana songs (my rating is maybe a 7 or 8 out of 10, using the Stylus Singles Jukebox scale).

Jordan Pruitt appears to be a good singer, it's got a nice laid-back acoustic melody, and I even really like the lyrics. The song was featured in the Disney Channel Original Movie (DCOM) Read It and Weep, which I liked a lot, and the lyrics basically echo the theme of the movie. Maybe that's causing me to overrate it, I don't know. I think this is one of the best songs I've heard about this fairly universal teen/youth (and even adult) feeling of rejection and lonerness, from a lyrical standpoint. Any other candidates?

Here is the song, does anybody else have any opinions on it?
(Please forgive if the HTML link doesn't work, I know nothing about computers).

The Pruitt song is on Girl Next and I praised it (briefly) upthread in that context. The lyric is good but it's the way Jordan sells it vocally that is the appeal for me.

As you say, you'd think there'd be loads of songs in this vein. Perhaps you have to go back to the 90s or even the 80s to find them?

Dylan's "Memphis Blues Again" is a good one about rejection and loneliness, but that goes back a ways, as do Rocket from the Tombs' "Sonic Reducer" and Pere Ubu's "Final Solution." The Velvet Underground's "Heroin." Simon & Garfunkel's "I Am a Rock." New York Dolls' "Private World." Johnny Moped's "No One." Ashlee Simpson's "Shadow." Avril Lavigne's "Unwanted," though that's more boy-girl than girl-world loneliness.

Xhuxk to thread.

Minor Threat's "Out of Step."

Of course there are many songs dealing with rejection/lonileness, but it seems to be underused in teen pop.

I forgot to mention, but one thing I really love is the "You don't know how it feels..." aspect to it. Of course, the reason the song works is that EVERYBODY knows how it feels to be on the outside looking in. But that feeling of loneliness can, in my experience, create a kind of self-pity, "Nobody has ever had to face this before me, I'm all alone" feeling. So not saying you don't know how it feels in an accusatory way (a la Tom Petty's "You Don't Know How It Feels to Be Me") but in a self-pitying way. I would guess this feeling is especially prevalent in the more self-centered teen world, which is why I think it works better as a teen pop song than it would in other genres.

Quick research reveals its written by Jordan, Keith Thomas, and Robin Scoffield. Anybody know anything about those people? Also Jordan's next song will apparently be a cover of "We Are Family" which should be interesting. Looks like her album is out on Hollywood records early next year.

God, if Lohan did "I Am a Rock" it would be some sort of historic pop peak.

http://www.myspace.com/robinscoffield, which streams Jordan Pruitt singing "Siempre Desde Afuera." Robin's MySpace page is all about Jordan, which seems off to me. Not the place where we'll learn of her achievements.

Jordan's version of "We Are Family" is streamed on her MySpace page. Weak during the verse, though with good chop-chop funk accompaniment, but something intense happens in the chorus, maybe it's minor chords where you'd expect major [don't know if that's right; this is first listen], prominent percussion, and a real interesting, strange break where she goes both doo-wop and gospel.

By "doo-wop" I think I meant "scat."

I have a feeling that Scoffield's written a lot, but what I've come up with in a few minutes are "Way of the World," recorded by both Jump 5 and Jennifer Paige; "When You Say You Love Me," recorded by Josh Groban; "Dancing on Daddy's Feet," recorded by Tresa Jordan; "The Things We Do," recorded by Yolanda Adams.

A few minutes of research on Keith Thomas reveals that he's a pretty big name producer. Multiple citations for his work with Vanessa Williams, Yolanda Adams, and on Amy Grant's breakout "Baby Baby", which he apparently won a Grammy for. I see he's also worked with Whitney Houston, CeCe Winans and others. Can't find any citations for anything similar to this. This assumes that these are all the same people, which seems safe because Jordan's Incubator profile says that he is a "Grammy winning producer"

New Myspace page for Belinda. The second song, "Quien es Feliz" was co-written by Skye Sweetnam and Shakira ("Underneath Yr Clothes") collaborator Lester Mendez, originally "Remember Me." This is the first song from the new album writing sessions. SECOND song from the new album available on the new Sims game...in Simlish (haven't heard it yet but the game came out today).

F-Kog brought up Kim-Lian, Dutch TV personality whose old 2003 single "Teenage Superstar" reminds me a little of Nikki Cleary and on new single "In Vain" goes teengoth in the chorus.

New Myspace page for Belinda. The second song, "Quien es Feliz" was co-written by Skye Sweetnam and Shakira ("Underneath Yr Clothes") collaborator Lester Mendez, originally "Remember Me." This is the first song from the new album writing sessions. SECOND song "Boyhunter" from the new album available on the new Sims game...in Simlish (haven't heard it yet but the game came out today).

F-Kog brought up Kim-Lian, Dutch TV personality whose old 2003 single "Teenage Superstar" reminds me a little of Nikki Cleary and on new single "In Vain" goes teengoth in the chorus.

Gah, double post again, sorry. See if you can spot the difference!

Boyhunter!

Czech cover of "Teenage Superstar" by Ewa, currently on the Czech charts, discussed here and here.

Give me enough time and I can usually figure out the chords to a song, but I won't really know what it is I've figured out - that is, I won't be able to make much sense of "this chord in relation to that" even if I can toss around words like "relative minor" and "subdominant." Anyway, I've done a little bit of work on the three recent Aly & A.J. tracks ("Chemicals React," "Greatest Time of Year," and "Not This Year"), the ones the girls wrote with Armato and James. To my surprise, when I start strumming 'em myself I hear all these affinities to the early '60s: Shirelles, early Beatles, etc. So playing along with "But the planets all aligned/When you looked into my eyes/And just like that/The chemicals react" I'm reminded of "It Won't Be Long" and "Baby It's You." And then hearing the way Aly & A.J. hit the notes, I'm hearing eight-to-the-bar strums and power chords that are not played for big metal effect but as a basic groove - which strangely would be a description of the Ramones (power-chord roar through the early Sixties), except that not only do Aly & A.J. sing better and have more complex and visceral arrangements than the Ramones, but also, when I listen to Aly & A.J., I very much don't think "girl groups" or "Beatles" or "Ramones." The girls don't sound like a throwback. I don't know what the difference is, except I want to call Aly & A.J.'s music "darker-hued." This means neither "menacing" nor "somber," just something richer in tone - maybe the way relative minor keys occur, or maybe it's the voices and the instrumentation, something deeper. The sound isn't less up and engaging than the usual stuff you hear on Radio Disney, it's just stronger inside. More full-bodied. I know those adjectives don't explain anything. If all goes well Tim Ellison and Eppy will show up and share their insights.

I was in JC Penny this weekend and when I walked into the teenage boys section Girls Aloud "Biology" was playing. It totally threw me for a loop, partially because I had been thinking about that song the morning before. (In how its structure is like Psycho, because I am a nerd.)

Then I went to the men's section and it was Phil Collins or something. Are they actually getting US radio play?

Oops, but we were talking about chord structures. Replaying it in my head "Chemicals React" bleeds into Bon Jovi's "It's My Life" and maybe a Veronicas song. American teenpop is sort of the natural continuation of pop-metal if it hadn't gone industrial, right, and I think how it works is this: 80s pop-metal's big tracks were all metal sonics welded onto 70s rock ballad structures and maybe melodies. This stuff seems to be melding punk onto 60s/70s pop/soul-ballads, Bacharach/David sorta stuff. Lots of passing notes. Except in melding the two they've flattened the rhythmic structure, so chords and root notes change right on the 1 or 3 (beginning or middle of the bar) instead of changing right before or after beats as they did in Bacharach and, I dunno, I guess I've been listening to "Gone Away" way too much lately so that's in my mind. But yeah, I think it takes that sorta variagated chordal structure and chains it to the Ramones chug-chug-chug. I think the verses are almost 70s orchestral pop done with rock instruments and the choruses are 90s power pop, yeah? Sorta kinda? Pop-grunge? I guess I should go listen.

But maybe vocally (I haven't gone and listened yet) Aly & AJ share a certain camraderie with soul ballads? Carole King and Diane Warwick and things?

I still think most of the rock-oriented stuff is a delayed tributary from Cheap Trick with bigger guitar sounds. Really, is there any CT song Ashlee, Lindsay or The Veronicas couldn't cover?

One thing I've noticed is that Aly/AJ (compared to other Radio Disney stars anyway) build more tension between major/minor, often starting in and resolving to major but making the chord progression seem predominantly minor with vocal melodies (on the verses, I think they tend to hit the major thirds in the chorus, hence "wind at the back"?). "Not This Year": Eb (major) to relative minor C to G minor (with the melody leading into C minor, not emphasizing the major key), but resolves V-I, Bb-Eb. Don't know if this goes to show anything, except that there tends to be a sort of open-ended minor-leaning gloom in the chord progression, where you know it will probably resolve to major anyway even though it feels minor. Smashing Pumpkins might be a referent for the general musical sound, but I guess that counts as "pop-grunge."

Shine. Just heard this for the first time; it's another Armato-James-Michalka-Michalka track, was added to the rerelease of Into the Rush. I like it a lot, but haven't come close to understanding what's going on. Starts acoustic but also seems as if it's going to be r&b, but then gets very girl-artsy-expressive, kind of, and then brings you to those minor keys or something - the way the voice dips on "every day's another opportunity to shine"; and then about seven-eighths through they make a gigantic change, and suddenly we're in the middle of a movie soundtrack, the camera in the sky panning across the landscape as the sun rises, let's say. And when the voice dips on the final "shine" it's to a more benign tone.

(Can't tell if the "you" in the lyrics is a friend, the listener, or whom. In verse one I thought it might be Jesus, and that still might be right, but "you're the star you're on tonight" seems to be something you'd tell a friend, not a deity. "Like a neighborhood on a city street/I know the path, it knows my feet" is a good couplet - the second half, anyway, the path knowing the feet [not sure how a neighborhood can be on a street, however].)

(Btw, the one track on the original release that Armato and James helped write was "Sticks and Stones.")